Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: trail walker on April 30, 2018, 09:22:13 pm
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I need help! I have busted my or had to discard all 5 bows I have tried to make and i can't figure out what I am doing wrong! I live in Utah, could i be letting my bow staves dry out to much? what does wood do when its to dry? I so far have had 2 juniper explosions, one water birch bow had a small section on the top growth ring pop off and now i am thinking i should just scrap it. And a few others. I am at a loss. I think more than anything I have just been blowing off steam, but I am dying. (--)
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live in Utah, could i be letting my bow staves dry out to much?
might be a good possibility
where do you keep your staves and bows you are working on?
any pics?
too dry usually is a dramatic explosion as you say, compared to too wet.
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I would find someone to sell or trade you a nice straight, clean seasoned hickory stave. They are not that expensive. Make yourself a simple flatbow. Hickory will handle the super dry climate that you have really well. It is so strong in tension that it thrives in dry weather where other woods fail. You will have a high probability of success with that plan and you can get some confidence and enthusiasm back and have a bow to shoot. Then you can take your time and figure out your local woods a little better. I'd talk to Chuck Loeffler about Utah bow woods. He lives there and makes amazing bows. Good luck.
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well that could be it then. I have had the staves in our sun room. I will post some pictures of the last juniper bow after it decided it wanted to become a fire cracker. It gave me a bloody lip.
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Mate, juniper isn't all that easy to turn into a selfbow. Especially if you are using a desert variety that has a lot of pin knots and twist. Usually, people will sinew juniper, but I wouldn't try that until you've got a firm grip on how to make a bow. If you get a chance to do that in the future though, please do because it makes a hell of a good bow. Birch is a fine wood, but not all birch is the same. Typically, yellow birch is what is used. Grain is king in most cases, so finding clean wood is essential, especially for a beginner. Chuck Loeffler recently made a bow out of scrub oak which he located in your region if I remember right. Also, tamarisk wood might work. It is invasive in your region. Mesquite will make a bow, but it is pretty difficult to find a clean piece. Maybe you have mountain mahogany around if you look. Past that, try your local lumberyard and get some hickory. It is very forgiving.
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There are quite a few bowyers in your state. I’d suggest meeting up with them and get some one-on-one time.
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well that could be it then. I have had the staves in our sun room.
What do you mean with ´sun room‘? Sounds like it‘s even warmer than in other rooms in your house. The humidity of wood (I think it’s called equilibrium moisture) depends on the ambient temperature and relative humidity. So warm and dry will make your staves and bows too brittle eventually.
There are tables available in the WWW to find out the equilibrium moisture of wood depending on room temperature and air humidity. You should get a hygrometer and look it up in one of those tables. Most bow woods need around 8 or 9 percent of relative humidity. Too moist and it will take too much set, too dry and it will break. Hickory (hence Weylin’s advice) is very tolerant to violations of the grain and can handle only 5 percent of equilibrium moisture. So trying that first is sound advice (as to be expected of Weylin and all the other awesome bowyers in this forum ;)).
Probably your basement would be a better place to store your wood.
Torsten
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+1 Hickory even in strait grained board form the probability of successes is high , when things get dry here I olny shoot my hickorie bows , pay close attention to your tapers on any bow uneven tapers can kill a bow quick, if your stuck with local wood, if it was me I would go longer wider and less draw weight tell I found a design that works ! and most importatant dont ever give up dust off make another !
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Trail Walker good to see you here again. I was thinking the exact same thing Weylin said. I've never made a hickory bow but from what I've heard, it should be just what your looking for.
Bjrogg
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What you do is keep trying. I had 14 failures before I finally got a hunting weight.
Yes, hickory is good for dry environments.
More on my site.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
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I live in Utah. If you have a basement, keep your staves there, out of the heat. I bought a humidifier especially for the winter and try to keep the room at 50% humidity. Siberian elm is a weed around here and can make a good bow if you keep it long and wide. Juniper needs sinew. If you can get Osage, it does well here.
Where do you live?
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Instead of guessing you could get a good moisture meter or even better cut a small piece off and measure the weight, then heat all of the moisture out and re-weigh the piece to get the MC.
I agree with stickbender, not having a good even thickness taper before I started stressing the bow was my number one problem when I first started out.
I also agree with trying hickory. It can take a lot of abuse.
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This reminds me of a test I did with a hickory board bow. I decided I didn't need this bow anymore, so I was determined to pull it until it broke. I think I pulled it 33" inches and it didn't break so I decided I would keep it....It's only like 62" long. Took like 3" of set though...Long story short, the wood is tough
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Without knowing a thing about your bows, its all speculation and guesses, plenty of them. Was the juniper backed? Was the tiller done right? Were the bows laid out in accordance to the woods strengths and weakness'? Dryness would be the last thing I would concern myself with.
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Thanks for all the advice guys! It looks like I need to look in on the hickory market, I feel like I've been pointed to a more stable starting point.
TorstenT i live in an earth ship so the sunroom runs along the entire front of the house, its where we grow our winter produce. I thought it would be more humid in there than in the house but there very similar. So probably to dry.
jeffp51, I do not have a basement. :P. I live in Huntington 15 minutes south of Price.
Limbit, I know Where I could get Scrub oak, tamarisk, and I bet I could find a long enough piece of mountain mahogany if I went on a hike up the mountain.
Bayou Ben, that is pretty sweet! sounds like what I need. I went to Rabit stick primitive skills gathering up in Rexburg ID, last year and met a guy named Bill McConnell. He had a pretty sweet and simple 50'' plaines style sinew backed hickory bow, I may or may not have fallen in love with it. ::) I think it would be fun to try making one like that, time will tell :o
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PEARL DRUMS,
Was the juniper backed?
No, it was not. I wanted to try doing it after I had a good tiller out to like 18'' of draw.
Was the tiller done right?
I got lucky and found a piece of knot free 44-inch juniper. and I was shooting for a light bow, so I was trying to take it slow and get good bend through it. after It was bending easily over my knee I strung it. I was pulling on it a little just to see where to take off more wood, I got it back to about fourteen or fifteen inches and it blew up. So I could have been off with the tillering but I was doing my bestist. :P
Were the bows laid out in accordance with the woods strengths and weakness'?
I have been going for a plains ish style bows, I have been keeping them about 1 1/4'' wide and like 1/2'' at the nocks with as much length as it will give me. So, I think so, but I could be a loonie tick. :P
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Hi Trail Walker.
I'm originally from Castle Dale. Graduated from Emery High in '97. Haven't been back to Emery County for years, but I still have some family living there. My nephew lives out there, and apparently is really into Mtn. Lion hunting, so I've been wanting to get back there and get him to take me out one of these winters. It's amazing who you'll run into on these forums.
Well, I'm definitely familiar with the climate out there, but all my bow-building experience has been in Pennsylvania, and more recently, in Houston. I have the opposite problem here in Houston, so I'll defer to the advice of others to answer your questions. And I'll listen to their every word, because eventually I want to make the move back home. What I will say, is that Hickory is a great wood to work with. I've made a few hickory bows, mostly from boards, but I do have one from a stave. It's a great wood for a beginner, because as others have hinted at, it's difficult to break. One of my first bows was a bamboo-backed hickory, which only cost me maybe $30 for the materials, and is still one of my favorite bows.
The only other thing I can add is just don't give up. Once you get that good bow, and then get out and get that first harvest with your own hand-made bow, it's the most rewarding experience ever! I'm going on 3 years into this hobby, and have turned out some good bows, but I'm still learning. Just this last weekend I totally messed up a beautiful sinew-backed Osage bow because I got in too much of a hurry when tillering and created a hinge. By the time I got it worked out, the draw weight was in the 20's. I may have even cried a little, but I won't admit it. My first two bows broke. One of them I was actually shooting well and decided to take it hunting. It exploded gloriously in my tree stand. I understand the frustration, but persevere, take the good advice everyone is giving you in here, and I bet the next bow turns out beautifully, and then you'll be hopelessly addicted like the rest of us.
Eric
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Asking 44" of unbacked juniper to pull 18" is a no-no. That is part of why that one broke. Your layout sounds about right, with 2-3 courses of sinew. I have no idea your experience level, but I would suggest, as other have, you start with a 65-67" flat bow and then work your way back to short, stressed designs.
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Bayou Ben, that is pretty sweet! sounds like what I need.
quite a bit of bend on that bow in the pic. Are you thinking you need hickory? or a little bayou humidity?
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Are you thinking you need hickory? or a little bayou humidity?
lol. I've broken more than I like to remember and I've had my share of explosions in that humid garage, but never with hickory...
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Stickbowbeard,that is so crazy that you are from Emery county! It really a small world! I will stick with the bows, I am thouroly addicted to arrow making and flint snapping all I am missing is a hand made fliperstick! and I'm graduating in like 3 weeks so ya! Keep in touch.
Pearl Drums, I genus that I have a place to start now. I have like not allot of experience. ;D
Willi, I think I could use bolth! ;D but I think I'll start with the hickory.
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Tailwalker....Are'nt you the one that was trying to tan that big old cow hide?How did that all turn out?
I tell you what I usually get myself some nice gun barrel straight hickory staves some springs here.This spring I am.I'd be glad to trade you one for a nice juniper stave.The longer the better though.The hickory staves can be any length you want.
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That's him Ed. Good on you I'd really like to see him get a shooter.
Trailwalker like Pearl said, 44" is really short 64 would better 66 even. You could shorten it up if you bend evenly over the whole bow including handle.
Bjrogg
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Don't give up! I am not exaggerating when I say I failed at least 100 times before I got a shooter. Granted, I did no research whatsoever until #80 or so, but eventually I got it, and you will too.
Weylin is absolutely right about the hickory. Make sure you get a stave. Best of luck. :)
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BowEd I would love to trade wood with you! The other day I cut a juniper Stave that looks like it would work pretty good. It's got some reflex in it though. And maybe a couple night knots on the edge. I might go bow Stave hunting see if I can find a better one.
And thanks bjrogg, I will try some longer woods. It has been my dream to have a short Plaines now like the Ute Indians that used to live in me area. It looks like I need some longer experience first.
Thanks upstatenybower I will keep plugin along.
I will post some pictures of that cow hide tonight to. :)
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I, too live i Utah, and I'd be glad to help you find some wood, and work with you if we get the chance. But, I live near SLC, so......
My first thought is your woods. Water birch is dismal, and juniper almost always needs a backing. Scrub oak, and canyon maple are pretty good. Chokecherry is good. Look also for elm and ash near rivers.
Contact me if you head up this way, and I'll get you some elm and stuff to start on.
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I, too live i Utah, and I'd be glad to help you find some wood, and work with you if we get the chance. But, I live near SLC, so......
My first thought is your woods. Water birch is dismal, and juniper almost always needs a backing. Scrub oak, and canyon maple are pretty good. Chokecherry is good. Look also for elm and ash near rivers.
Contact me if you head up this way, and I'll get you some elm and stuff to start on.
Scrub oak is good stuff!
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The shortest hickory native style bow I have made out of hickory is 62 in. But drawn to 30 in. & sinewed it ended up being a nice smooth bow hunted with it a couple years back , hickory is great bow wood
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OH, MY GOODNESS!!!!!
Stick Bender that hickory bow is like almost my dream bow!
Springbuck and Bryce, is scrub oak really that good?
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You will have a high probability of success with that plan and you can get some confidence and enthusiasm back and have a bow to shoot. Then you can take your time and figure out your local woods a little better. I'd talk to Chuck Loeffler about Utah bow woods. He lives there and makes amazing bows. Good luck.
I think I have decided to get my hands on some hickory. And yes Chuck Loeffler makes awesome bows. I found his website "Hart wood bows" before I found this forum, and I am pretty sure I was I was drooling all over the computer. (lol) ::)
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The buds of the hickory here are beginning to open a bit revealing the leaves and I'll cut a log or two soon from 12 to 14 inch diameter tree.Want to make sure the sap is flowing well so the bark will pop off easily.The revealed backs then are the back of the bow and are pretty cool.Should easily get two 6" lengths of log from it.
If you have access to more seasoned hickory.Have at it because these will need some time to dry properly.
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The buds of the hickory here are beginning to open a bit revealing the leaves and I'll cut a log or two soon... because these will need some time to dry properly.
BowEd, I would be out with my saw today )-w(, but I am in Utah and have never seen a hickory tree in my life. :'( I am going to have to order or trade for a stave.
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Well if you want we'll figure something out then.It should be within 2 weeks till these staves would be ready to go.
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Trailwalker,
could we see a profile view of the earthship? :)