Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: cool_98_555 on May 05, 2018, 11:48:09 am
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Hi guys,
Just finished another osage bow. I have shot it over 100 times, and it has around 2.25" of set. Is this acceptable? Should I just finish it and call it a bow? I was considering tempering the belly with some reflex but i'm not sure. The other side of me is telling me "Just leave it alone. Shoots great...just leave well-enough alone." But i'm tempted to temper the belly to get a bit more performance out of it. Is there some golden rule of some kind regarding set? Like,...less than a certain amount is good? Do any of you guys have osage bows with set comparable to mine and still enjoy shooting them?
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It just a personal preference of mine but I feel more than 1" of set is not acceptable. If I had about 3' reflex and then finished at 1 1/2" I would be ok with it but the less the better. Lots of techniques you can learn to avoid set. If you were using these techniques you would have been able to respond to the set long before it hit 2 1/2".
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Golden rule: never pull more than a couple pounds more than the desired draw weight.
Acceptable amount of set for me is determined by what species to wood is like I know hickory and oak will take more set than most woods.
I rarely have bows that take more than 1.5” of set/spring follow. For yew and Osage more than an inch of set means I did something wrong in my book. Whether it’s design or tillering errors.
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Can you post pics?front profile,unbrace,brace and full draw will tell the tale.
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Moisture level, design, tiller, all three have to be right.
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What I do is put it belly down on a flat surface... if you can get 1 finger between floor and grip that's fine ... 2 fingers, well ok, acceptable. 3 fingers too much >:( .
Mind having said that some of my fave bows are 3 fingers... a bit of set can give you a smooooooth shooter.
It's really up to you.
Del
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Del I tried your finger method and when I put the belly facing the wall and I don't put any pressure on it, I can get one finger between the handle and the wall. I was getting 2.25" by putting the back against the wall and measuring from the wall to the tip of the bow. Am I measuring it wrong? With your method it would seem as though the set is well within acceptable...
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Just enjoy your bow. There's not a lot you can do now.
Make sure it is dry, that the design fits the stave and that the stave is nit strained during tillering.
Jawge
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Del I tried your finger method and when I put the belly facing the wall and I don't put any pressure on it, I can get one finger between the handle and the wall. I was getting 2.25" by putting the back against the wall and measuring from the wall to the tip of the bow. Am I measuring it wrong? With your method it would seem as though the set is well within acceptable...
There is no "wrong"
... but, yeah that's the way I do it so it sounds fine to me.
You are the only one who knows what the stave was like when you started. Some people have bows that are ramrod straight... but maybe they started with 3" of reflex!
Chillax ;D
Sel
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What I do is put it belly down on a flat surface... if you can get 1 finger between floor and grip that's fine ... 2 fingers, well ok, acceptable. 3 fingers too much >:( .
Mind having said that some of my fave bows are 3 fingers... a bit of set can give you a smooooooth shooter.
It's really up to you.
Del
Same here. Had 1” or so of deflex and ended up at 2” and the release was nice and soft. Which definitely made it nice to shoot.
Saxon Pope states that his bows that slightly followed the string where softer, and the better shooters.
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I have osage bow I elk hunt with , has nearly 3 inches of set,, it shoots really well, it is 20 years old,, I not gonna mess with it,, I like my bows to have inch or less, but a bow with a little set can still shoot really well,,the bow is a bit on the heavy side,, not so fast for its draw,, but because it is a bit heavy has nice cast,,,a lighter bow could out shooot it,, but its an old friend and I love it,,
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The only "rule" I can think of is "Set Happens"... ;)
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A lot of guys that build Howard Hill style bows & build them purposely to have a little set for softer shooters,if it was me & if the bow shoots well and had decent cast I wouldn't worry about it and try to make a better one next time , Steve made a good point about dry wood ,osage amazes me how long it holds on to moisture ,I have staves inside on the wall that have been off the stump for three years & some are still reflexing more each year.
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before you even pull the bow to desired weight make sure the limbs are bending even that has caused a lot of set when i used to do otherwise. Just take it slow. and always check set throughout the tillering process if you see that there is some set taking place ask your self is that reasonable given the draw length it is currently in. If not you know that you are doing something wrong. And after all that you realize you aren't able to stop set then maybe its a design issue or a moisture problem. I personally always make my bows wider then they need to be then thinner them out at the end to make them lighter.
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I didn't mean to come off as harsh about the set, the only reason I was so direct about it was because the question was about set. Tillering the bow out is my favorite part of bow making. I don't look at it as work because it is much more like a very intense strategy game. I have radically altered a lot of my techniques in the last few years just based on methods of addressing set.
Floor tillering, I used to get my bow pretty close to the weight I was looking for and then either brace it or put it on the long string just to check it out before I braced it. Now when I floor tiller a bow I want them as even as possible but every part of the limb is still too strong. As long as no part of the limb is at target weight I can't hurt the bow by pulling it to full target weight every time I draw the bow on the long string even if they are way out of tiller. I don't reduce weight anymore I just work on the tiller shape, weight reduction is simply a byproduct of that.
The long string will read just about the same as the bow would read as if it were braced so I always know where I am at as far as getting close to target weight. Every time I remove wood I recheck the bows draw weight at the last place I had it before wood removal. I then take it down to its new draw length always pulling full target draw weight. I then go back and see if it is still reading the same at the old mark. If it dropped any weight it is taking set, if the tiller is nice and even and I have no where else to remove wood I simply lower my target draw weight and try to plan the next bow out a little better. Several other little things I have added in their as well. It adds a new dimension to bow making that for me makes it a lot more enjoyable and a lot less tedious.
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For a new bowyer it is important to make sure you have nice even bends and everything working before you brace...Patience is important...My first brace ever, resembled a hockey stick...One limb straight and the other severely bent...Staying on the long string a little longer is ok...I find the majority of set or follow happens past 26 with me now...My draw is 26 and have never built a bow that didn't have string follow of some degree...Set or string follow "is not wrong", it is a "result" we try to minimize...
Don
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We’re on the same page Steve. We seem to do everything the same:)
Except for the long string. To me the long string hides tillering flaws.
I trust my floor tiller, once I feel and see the limbs are even enough, I go
Ahead a low brace, 9/10 it’s nearly spot on. One limb may be slightly positive but not much.
Then tiller at low brace (3”-4”) to about 18” then the real
Tillering begins lol (much the same way you explained) and yes it’s the BEST PART! It’s when a stick actually becomes A bow!
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Steve, we should schedule a tillering demonstration for you at MoJam... I can arrange it for you. :)
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Bryce your bows are way better looking than mine, I tend to ignore the finish but really admire those that are finished nicely.
I usually brace mine when the long string hits about 23" gives me enough room to make any corrections I need to make and that is usually about where the real battle starts anyway
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Bryce your bows are way better looking than mine, I tend to ignore the finish but really admire those that are finished nicely.
I usually brace mine when the long string hits about 23" gives me enough room to make any corrections I need to make and that is usually about where the real battle starts anyway
Bob, I would be happy to but it is a slow process. I will bring a bow not tillered yet.
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We will have several days Steve... :BB We can either set up a formal demonstration or 2, or you can just share the method with us in camp... but I do want to see it done.
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I will just keep a bow over there and work on it if anyone wants to see the method. I usually spend about 3 hours or so Tillering one out.
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sounds great! I usually spend more like 3 weeks... (--)
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cool....Sometimes if just being concerned with hitting the target or game your shooting at consistently bows like you described can be the most fun.Shootability has it's merits.Hitting the 10 ring more often than friends or while hunting and finding what you hit in the exact place you aimed.
I still always try for the least amount of set.Making a certain design over and over enough to work out all the bugs takes time.
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Bob, Steve,
Sign me up for a spot in the demo! At the rate I'm going, I'll still be tillering the hickory stave!! It seems to want to not bend below target weight, but it is quite over built. Don't want to steal this thread, so Iwill start another closer to my concerns.
Hawkdancer
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We’re on the same page Steve. We seem to do everything the same:)
Except for the long string. To me the long string hides tillering flaws.
I trust my floor tiller, once I feel and see the limbs are even enough, I go
Ahead a low brace, 9/10 it’s nearly spot on. One limb may be slightly positive but not much.
Then tiller at low brace (3”-4”) to about 18” then the real
Tillering begins lol (much the same way you explained) and yes it’s the BEST PART! It’s when a stick actually becomes A bow!
I guess it depends how our eyes work or something. I can't see an even bend when I'm floor tillering although using a full length mirror helped. I have a long string with leather pouches so I don't need nocks. I use it in my "Floor tillering" stage. Then I have a regular long string with loops for early tillering. I usually brace it as soon as I can. That usually is around 20". I can just see the bend better if it's up in front of me on the tree.
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Bryce your bows are way better looking than mine, I tend to ignore the finish but really admire those that are finished nicely.
I usually brace mine when the long string hits about 23" gives me enough room to make any corrections I need to make and that is usually about where the real battle starts anyway
Oh just meant when it came to tillering. Has one of my bows made it to your hands?
We’re on the same page Steve. We seem to do everything the same:)
Except for the long string. To me the long string hides tillering flaws.
I trust my floor tiller, once I feel and see the limbs are even enough, I go
Ahead a low brace, 9/10 it’s nearly spot on. One limb may be slightly positive but not much.
Then tiller at low brace (3”-4”) to about 18” then the real
Tillering begins lol (much the same way you explained) and yes it’s the BEST PART! It’s when a stick actually becomes A bow!
I guess it depends how our eyes work or something. I can't see an even bend when I'm floor tillering although using a full length mirror helped. I have a long string with leather pouches so I don't need nocks. I use it in my "Floor tillering" stage. Then I have a regular long string with loops for early tillering. I usually brace it as soon as I can. That usually is around 20". I can just see the bend better if it's up in front of me on the tree.
If you want, and I do this sometimes now since my accident. I’ll place 2 large block on my work bench and rest the ends of the bow on them. Then take an Irwin quick grip clamp and start clamping the handle down and after so far the limbs are bent pretty good and sometimes whiles it’s clamped I’ll go ahead and make some corrections right then and there. Watch the limbs come round as I rasp.
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I’ll place 2 large block on my work bench and rest the ends of the bow on them. Then take an Irwin quick grip clamp and start clamping the handle down and after so far the limbs are bent pretty good and sometimes whiles it’s clamped I’ll go ahead and make some corrections right then and there. Watch the limbs come round as I rasp.
Bryce, That sounds like a good technique, have to give it a try soon. Those quick grip clamps are becoming the "go to" clamps around my workbench
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Brice, I was shooting one of your bows last weekend, a 70# osage, extremely narrow profile. I couldn't get it all the way back. Beautiful bow and very well tillered. I was kind of surprised at how narrow it was for the poundage but not shocked. I have a 55# that is similar but only about 3/4" wide.
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Well, despite being torn on what to do about the bow, I decided to go out to the garage and throw a few arrows through the chronograph. I mean the real issue with set in a bow is loss in performance, so I was curious. Keep in mind that this bow is around 72# at 29" and is quite snakey. I first used a 505gr arrow 3 times and got an average of 188fps. Not bad...but i've done better. I also had a 610gr arrow so I shot that through the chrono and I got an average of about 180fps. This packed more punch at the target and was a lot quieter, albeit being slower. This bow is more efficient with a 600gr arrow, surprisingly. I also shot a heavier 670gr arrow, and I got 173fps. That is a lot less efficient than the 610gr arrow out of this bow.
I was not sure whether to heat temper the belly of this bow before, and to be honest with you, i'm still not sure. It's got a lot of snakey character to it and it has 2.25" of set, but it is so smooth...just a joy to shoot. I'm not sure how many fps I would gain if I heat treated the belly...do you?
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If you want, and I do this sometimes now since my accident. I’ll place 2 large block on my work bench and rest the ends of the bow on them. Then take an Irwin quick grip clamp and start clamping the handle down and after so far the limbs are bent pretty good and sometimes whiles it’s clamped I’ll go ahead and make some corrections right then and there. Watch the limbs come round as I rasp.
That's a good idea, I may try that. My vice is in the way though.
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Well, anyway whitewood bows need a little more TLC than osage. IMHO.
When I work on osage I just follow the same procedure.
This is the way I do it and have done it for years.
I go overboard in not straining a stave before it becomes a bow.
First, the wood must be dry. I have a moisture meter and use it lot. I use it right through the stave's first stringing and even beyond.I don't feel the need to use one of those hygrometer type meters.
Second, I long string tiller after floor tillering. Even at this point I am cognizant of not straining the stave. I check weight and never go over target weight by more than 5#. I look for around target weight at ten inches of long string movement. Not tip movement. I don't get hung up on the length of the long string. I've used the same one for years. It is about 1.25 inches the length of the stave.
I like the long string because I can see tiller and more readily determine when the stave is ready for the short string.
When I get 10 inches of string travel, good bend in the limbs and target weight (or so), I string it for the first time with the short string at a low brace of 2-3 inches as measured from the back of the handle.
BTW at 10 inches and target weight I figure this puts the stave at 10-15# our final target weight. I broke my share of overweight staves at first stringing which is why I use this method.
Third, as I tiller I gradually increase brace height until I get around 7" from the back of the handle. Further, I don't pull to target weight until I hit 25" for a 26" draw. Gives me enough to finish sand, etc.
My bows end up with 2" or a little under of set. I'm happy with that. I measure set by putting the back of the bow up agains a wall and measuring tip deflection.
Much more on my site but I felt like typing.:)
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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Do you have 2 1/2" set or 2 1/2" string follow. Your performance is excellent. I have never seen a bow with 2 1/2" string follow hit even close to 170 with 10 grain arrows.
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Badger,
Stave started pretty straight and I did no reflexing of any kind (I love the straight limb longbow so much...just my preference. I never put any reflex or recurve in my tips). So that would be 2 1/4" of string follow.
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Steve my old bow,, is close to 60# at 28 inches,, it will shoot a 500 grain arrow about 170,, slow for its draw weight,,
but the 500 grain arrow doing 170 is ok for hunting,,and of course a 600 grain arrow is slower even,, but still hitting hunting speed for me,, so I guess my rule is if the arrow shoots hard enough to get the job done,, then the set would be acceptable for that application,,
in the last 20 years I have learned to make bows more effecient,, when I look at the bow Pope and Young shot, it seems they had to up the weight to make up for the string follow or set they had on the bows,, just thinking out loud,,
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Brice, I was shooting one of your bows last weekend, a 70# osage, extremely narrow profile. I couldn't get it all the way back. Beautiful bow and very well tillered. I was kind of surprised at how narrow it was for the poundage but not shocked. I have a 55# that is similar but only about 3/4" wide.
Hmm I’ve made a few of those but I’m assuming it the one
I made for a gentleman that live near yah. I’m terrible with names. Either way I’m glad
To hear it’s still doing work:)
Well, despite being torn on what to do about the bow, I decided to go out to the garage and throw a few arrows through the chronograph. I mean the real issue with set in a bow is loss in performance, so I was curious. Keep in mind that this bow is around 72# at 29" and is quite snakey. I first used a 505gr arrow 3 times and got an average of 188fps. Not bad...but i've done better. I also had a 610gr arrow so I shot that through the chrono and I got an average of about 180fps. This packed more punch at the target and was a lot quieter, albeit being slower. This bow is more efficient with a 600gr arrow, surprisingly. I also shot a heavier 670gr arrow, and I got 173fps. That is a lot less efficient than the 610gr arrow out of this bow.
I was not sure whether to heat temper the belly of this bow before, and to be honest with you, i'm still not sure. It's got a lot of snakey character to it and it has 2.25" of set, but it is so smooth...just a joy to shoot. I'm not sure how many fps I would gain if I heat treated the belly...do you?
If you like the way it shoot and it hits what you're lookin
At I would just leave it as is.
You could heat treat and get some pro’s from that but it’s up to you.
My draw is 27”-28” so I usually heat treat around 24”-25” just so I can sand off that
Very top layer of wood, and that’s just more for aesthetics than anything.
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I think it shoots great just leave it,,,
(W
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For me as little as possible . I like none but not often achieved. 1-1/2 is good for a novice bowyer I would say. If you reflex the ends and get 1-1/2 inch set on what was straight limbs you end up with a reflex deflex bow that shoots with good speed and a smooth draw on say 67 and longer bows. But to each his on preference. Arvin
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I think the point is not so much that you get a little set or not as much as it is that you learn ways to recognize it early and respond to it. Learn about the options you may have in responding to set when it first starts to occur. I rarely ever get a bow with no set but I always try for it.
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Many times at least with most archers as we get older we're not able to handle the poundage that we did when we were younger.I think that's called shootability too.It's a goal of mine anyway to make bows of less poundage with close to the same fps numbers for ease of shooting.Tillering them with less set helps accomplish that no matter what the design.
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If you want, and I do this sometimes now since my accident. I’ll place 2 large block on my work bench and rest the ends of the bow on them. Then take an Irwin quick grip clamp and start clamping the handle down and after so far the limbs are bent pretty good and sometimes whiles it’s clamped I’ll go ahead and make some corrections right then and there. Watch the limbs come round as I rasp.
That's a good idea, I may try that. My vice is in the way though.
Quick example don
(http://i.imgur.com/h6e7iS8.jpg) (http://imgur.com/h6e7iS8)
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Bryce, I have similar device, mine has roller on the ends and a crank in the middle I can just wind it down. I used to tiller it while it was cranked down, even more so on heavily reflexed deflexed bows. I crank it down to about what it would be at brace.
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We’re in the middle of moving and I have to pack up most of my tools decided to make a bow while we wait for the house to sell. But I know exactly what your talking about! My main block have the rubber roller things I jacked from a boat trailer:)