Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stick Bender on May 06, 2018, 03:35:04 am
-
This was a topic I was going to discuss with friends but decided to throw it out here ,I noticed in PA magazine that Mike Yancy took what look to be a longer Sinew/osage bow with him to Africa & was shooting heavy arrows to kill his Wart hog ,I have experimented with longer then 60 in. sinew backed bow with mixed results , But having a longer then average draw I have a fascination with shooting the heaviest arrows at the fastest speed I can , I know there is other guys here that have made bows beyond the typical double draw length recommendation , I'm wondering if any body else has tried it for say arrows in the 750-800 grain class ? & would there be a advantage for the heavier arrows at the longer length & draw ? ,I'm sure it would boil down to design but from the pics I have seen bows made longer seem to be typical parallel limb designs ?
-
If a longer bow is inefficient with a sinew backing, then launching a heavy arrow from it wont change that.
-
Some of Mike's bows are longer, and yes they are sinew backed. His design is one that has long tapered limbs with small tips. Maybe that contributes to the fact that they shoot well even being longer than 60". I sinew backed a 64" osage bow recently, but the design will allow me to shorten it considerably if I decide it's too long.
-
Have you ever shot one, Bob?
-
I'm embarrassed to say no... but I have held them and seen Mike shoot them...and will shoot one at MoJam. :)
-
I wasn't trying to make you feel embarrassed, sorry. I asked only because often we assume if "X" made the bow, it must be top notch. That's not always the case, as you and I well now. I doubt most of us could feel if a bow we were shooting was too long for the sinew on its back.
-
not to worry... it just made me realize that I should have already shot one of them... I've know Mike for many years. The bows 'look' like great shooters, and I have seen a lot of bows. :)
-
Well I didn't state it in the OP but was thinking in my mind about the reverse strung & pulled in reflex that wouldn't be there in the self bow counter part ,figuring maybe over coming the additional mass & the longer limb profile for heavier arrows ?
-
Stick,
this idea of pulling in reflex has been mentioned in other nearby threads, and discussed in relation to the drying of the sinew. I wonder if there is something to be examined as to what would work best as a belly when doing this. Obviously a highly elastic wood has its recommendations over less then elastic for just about anything bow related, but I am thinking about the use of a stave that is already reflexed. and maybe not trying to increase deflex further , but possibly just restraining the stave to the reflex it has?
-
Isn't the idea of pulling in reflex more to allow the sinew/glue to shrink as much as possible rather than get more reflex. Maybe we should start with a deflexed bow so we get all the shrinkage but not as much reflex.
-
The trick is to draw the bow more relative to bow length. Sinew backed short bows are typically drawn half their length or even slightly more. If you have a longer draw then make the bow to a similar ratio and it will be efficient.
-
I have made sinew bows that shot well at a shorter draw,, less than half the bows length,, I was usually shooting through chrono as I tillered and was surprised at the cast before I reached the full draw goal,, so I think if tillered with that in mind a longer bow ,, could shoot well drawn less than half its length,,especially holding reflex,, thats just my experience,, as far as the heavy arrows,, I have shot 700 grain arrows from a 50# bow,, and kiled deer,,
thats not to say the 500 grain arrow would not have worked as well,, but the heavy arrow flew well and penetrated very well, thats all I know,,, (W
the bow I mention was about 54 inches long and started shooting really well at about 24 inches of draw,,` -C-
ok I just measured the bow, it is 55 nock to nock, and found my notes,,
it was shooting 180 fps with 500 grain arrow,, 55# at 26 inches, I counldnt find the chrono results at 24 yet still looking,, :)
-
Well I was thinking in the sense of a bow similar to the one in the pic that one only has 18 in. working limbs it's being pulled to 31 in. In the pic 65 ntn so I was thinking same dimensions but only the working limbs sinewed & reflexed say 5 in. it seems it would be highly stressed with out adding mass and probably would shoot a heavy hunting arrow at a reasonable speed ? DC why wouldn't you want the reflex ? Patm is that design doing close to what you suggested ? Brad dead is dead regardless of weight... Lol but Mikes warthog killer got the cob Webbs of some old ideas ! Could do it with recurves but just like the way strait limb statics shoot !
-
Yeah, that's idea. Limit it to working portions and work them hard.
-
Have you ever shot one, Bob?
I'm embarrassed to say no... but I have held them and seen Mike shoot them...and will shoot one at MoJam. :)
I wasn't trying to make you feel embarrassed, sorry. I asked only because often we assume if "X" made the bow, it must be top notch. That's not always the case, as you and I well now. I doubt most of us could feel if a bow we were shooting was too long for the sinew on its back.
I’ve shot one and your right on pearly. Doesn’t matter who made it.
If A bow is a dog it’s a dog, can it still kill? You bet.
-
Too much reflex can be a little unstable, hard to brace, that stuff.
-
one time I made a 80# sinew bow, it was a dog,, but at that weight the arrow shot pretty hard,,enough to kill anything,,
-
I made this sinew backed BL bow in 2002. The bow is 64" long, pulled about 80# @ 28", and had a fair amount of reflex, this means string tension was pretty high. Generally I was building bows like this around 60" long for a 28" draw but went with 64" on this one. It was a mistake. I could see from shooting the bow that it was a dog. The sinew backed recurves like this one that I made before shot much faster even with 10~15# less draw weight. It would have been better at a longer draw
A couple pics of the bow
-
I remember that one. Where did it end up.? Probably would have came to life at 30 plus.
-
Isn't the idea of pulling in reflex more to allow the sinew/glue to shrink as much as possible rather than get more reflex. Maybe we should start with a deflexed bow so we get all the shrinkage but not as much reflex.
I dunno, I suppose the reflex or more bend to get to full draw is the reason these designs perform, its the sinew that allows the design to make the bend. If it could be done with an elastic materiel that was lighter or stiffer than sinew, then highly reflexed designs might do even better. Short of making the belly out of horn or hideglue with TP or such, I was just wondering how to get the best work without set from a wood belly,
Seems like Stick is looking to design for heavy arrows with out necessarily going shorter? I am not conversant in Asiatic sinew bows, but weren't some more about launching heavy "warbow" arrows, while others were more about light arrows? What design principles differentiated these two types?
Maybe PatM has a pic of each type to share?
-
That's a beautiful bow Marc I also remember a 64 in. Maple/sinew bow you built for PA magazine a number of years back that was a good performer !
-
Manchu bows were designed for heavy arrows. Not surprisingly they are much longer with longer draws as well.
Those style of bows transition down through the Crimean Tatar bows to regular Turkish bows and then short pure flight Turkish bows.
-
Well , he's got the longer draw, and seems to be ok with a longer bow. What sets these manchu designs apart from the bows for lighter arrows?
sinew proportions? working limb length proportions? etc.
-
Larger all around. Much longer Siyahs with sharper angles.
-
Thanks Pat.
hey I found this.... Pat could you tell us what Laubin said?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/want-to-make-a-bow-mongol-style-bow-t46741.html?sid=edcbdc6d0abf25bbfc14993d5a7d6ba2#p467548
-
Just that wood and sinew had a lot more to offer than most assume.
-
so that is a wood/sinew composite? how thick is the sinew, what is the wood?
-
Yes. I don't really know how thick the sinew is. I made it 17 years ago in a very short period of time. A few months from cutting to finished product including sinewing it twice due to the commercial hide glue being bad. It's Elm.
As an aside I'm puzzled how photobucket pics have survived the purge on that site.
-
I remember that one. Where did it end up.? Probably would have came to life at 30 plus.
Still have it and yes it would have done well at a longer draw. Way too much bow for me now
That's a beautiful bow Marc I also remember a 64 in. Maple/sinew bow you built for PA magazine a number of years back that was a good performer !
My memory fails me there. I don't remember ever building a sinew backed Maple, it must have been some other wood. I know I built a sinew backed bow for Steve Quinton that might have been 64" long, it was sinew backed HHB. He has a 31" draw.
-
I remember that one. Where did it end up.? Probably would have came to life at 30 plus.
Still have it and yes it would have done well at a longer draw. Way too much bow for me now
That's a beautiful bow Marc I also remember a 64 in. Maple/sinew bow you built for PA magazine a number of years back that was a good performer !
My memory fails me there. I don't remember ever building a sinew backed Maple, it must have been some other wood. I know I built a sinew backed bow for Steve Quinton that might have been 64" long, it was sinew backed HHB. He has a 31" draw.
Be neat to see you at least two hand it through a chrono at 30 or so.
He's probably thinking of that Yellow Birch.
-
The Birch bow was 62" long and it's performance was excellent. I have thought of cutting 2" off each tip of that BL bow and re-tillering it down to a more acceptable draw weight
-
Yep your right birch bow volume 20 bow thought it was maple sorry !
-
Im going to build the bow & find out the self bow in the the pic was the fastest bow I had ever made with fresh numbers well into the 180s 10 gpp & was shooting 12 gpp arrows well ,but the bow was to heavy draw for the design and eventualy broke down so here are my thoughts I could go hickory/sinew or a very narrow osage 65 ntn slight recurve 18-19 in. working limb the hickory would be the lighter mass but better compression strength on the osage, I have pristien staves in ethere well cured ?
-
It's nice to have some good old hickory around ready.Personally I can't remember ever sinewing an osage.Never really figured it needed it.At least in my world of types of bows.
Hickory on the other hand I think can benefit from sinew with the right design.Just plain heat treating hickory most times is enough for me too.
-
Hickory/sinew is a great combo my other hickory/sinew after it was cured for a year has never changed it shoots the same and consistent , even though hickory is not a great rated compression wood it works great in the last couple of backed bows I have made using it as a core wood !
-
It's nice to have some good old hickory around ready.Personally I can't remember ever sinewing an osage.Never really figured it needed it.At least in my world of types of bows.
Hickory on the other hand I think can benefit from sinew with the right design.Just plain heat treating hickory most times is enough for me too.
and apparently even a lighter birch can benefit from an application of sinew? a wood not known for its elasticity. maybe anything can benefit from sinew with the correct design?