Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: DC on January 19, 2019, 09:45:42 am
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How far does it take for a well sorted out arrow to settle down? Ball park?
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I don't understand your question. ???
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Viewing paradox as the arrow must bend in order to fly straight, about 16 yds. The variables of shaft material, fletching, tuning and form can affect how how long it takes the arrow to stabilize.
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I don't understand your question. ???
Sorry I guess stabilise is the better word. After bending around the bow how far does the arrow have to travel before it's going straight?
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Recovery time depends on the material used. Cane arrows seem to recover quicker than hardwood shoots and even commercial wood shafting. Quicker recovery shortens that distance. If you look at slow motion videos of archers paradox you will see the arrow is still trying to recover even as it hits the target.
Point weight and fletching size and style also play a part. I think folks use a 10 yard mark to bare shaft test arrows so maybe that is a simple answer to your question.
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Kinda makes you wonder how bare shafting works (I know it does) with the arrow switching sides most of the way to the target.
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That's the archer's paradox. ;)
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It depends...
See this, distance is about ten meters:
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-jGc5PWRk
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An interesting test is to clamp a shaft lightly at the centre between two small blocks of wood in a vice.
If you then pull both ends back a couple of inches with your finger tips and release simultaneously you can see how long the vibration lasts.
If you want you can time it and convert that to distance travelled.
For a flight arrow you'd ideally want a material that was well damped and stopped vibrating quickly. But the other side of the coin is that if it was well damped it might not flex quick enough when loosed and would thus act as if it was too stiff.
Seem like almost everything in this game is full of contradictions and compromises... which is why we like it ;D
Del
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It depends...
See this, distance is about ten meters:
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-jGc5PWRk
Tuomo, have you noticed if adding fletching dampens the flight? Improves the recovery time?
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I bare shaft starting at 5 yards, not sure what it would look like in slow motion but when tuned correct my arrows are straight at the point. I would think if tuned right the are straight as soon as they completely clear the bow, 16 yards seem like a bunch to me, if my arrows are not straight by then I am going to see it, all I want to see is nock. JMO. ;)
Pappy
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But the other side of the coin is that if it was well damped it might not flex quick enough when loosed and would thus act as if it was too stiff.
Del
Hmm, only if the dampening was achieved by thickness and mass. I don't see how removing thickness or mass in a flight arrow could increase stiffness.
dampening and reducing mass together might have potential
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Here :
https://youtu.be/96KGWC0PB6s
& Here :
https://www.bio.vu.nl/thb/users/kooi/kooi98.pdf
regards,
Scyth
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Thanks Scyth. Up until I posted this I had it totally wrong. I thought that a limp arrow was bending away from the bow too much. That left a few questions unanswered. Now that I see this progression from stiff to limp I can see that it's the opposite. It's the first bend, the one apparently caused by the string rolling off your fingers. that seems to be the culprit. The more the arrow bends, the more it smacks into the bow. This kicks the back of the arrow to the left and the rest is history. It leaves me wondering how stiff arrows behave and why they kick right. It's strange that it's stiff arrows that make the noise. I'll try and read the PDF you posted but my mind glazes over when I see math symbols.
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It leaves me wondering how stiff arrows behave and why they kick right.
Here, stiff arrows:
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBq0Wr6H7uU
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLJVsFNtYDc
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVntGubV78
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et71Xk_vSvs
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Thanks Tuomo. It's strange, I can't really see the difference. The fletching still smacks the bow so why does it hit nock right rather than nock left?
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If your not using your shooting machine and shooting with fingers a bad release can make an otherwise correctly spined arrow do some crazy moves.
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You wouldn't happen to have a link to something that tells me what a "bad release" is? Or a "good release" for that matter?
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Don
you can look through all the videos Tuomo has uploaded by clicking on his youtube channel
Puujousi TIR-Bow
just below the title/views
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I've had it bookmarked since he first started posting ;D ;D but never thought of it when I started this thread. getting old sucks ;D ;D
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dont have a video of good and bad releases- but maybe the diagram will help a bit.
remember this only really works of your spine is right- but i dont know how one ensures the spine is correct , if one is making release errors- it can be quite a conundrum- chicken and egg scenario.
i have watched everything i can on bare shafting, and modified how i bare shaft to suit me- i think i get reasonably consistent results nowadays- but one can still be tested, and fraught with frustration some days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s
check out this video, IMHO its the very best "paradox" video i have ever seen.
With correct spine and correct string nock position- the fletch should be clearing the riser, or possibly very very lightly , the bottom hen fletch could be just kissing the shelf.
watch the video at 0.40 and again at 1.34.
one can see that the shaft is not affected at all by any contact a fletch may have with the riser.
one can see how important string nock height is. As the front of the arrow, upon release, contacts the shelf- but the rear of the arrow, is actually elevated from the shelf, due to the "higher than square" nock position.
so the elevated nock position and the correct spine, work in unison to eliminate any fletch contact with the riser.
now this video should look no different with a self bow( no cut in shelf) as the correct arrow spines would be softer yet. Or conversely with a cut past center bow- as those spines would be suitably stiffer.
if the fletch is smacking the riser- then i would venture to say that the spine is not quite right.
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Thanks Wayne. I've watched that video many many times. I wish he had started with an arrow that was way to stiff and worked his way through using the same camera position for every shot. I was under the impression that it was just "how much" the arrow bent that determined if it was right for the bow. But that didn't explain everything. Then I realised that time, or, the frequency of the arrow was also a big part of it. The arrow has to bend enough to clear the handle but it has to be bent at the right time. You have a small window of time where the arrow is bent enough and in the right direction to clear the bow. I've still got way more figuring to do, there is so much to see in those videos. At 5.16 it looks like there is a wave of motion that travels down the length of the arrow. He says it's the right spine but it looks like the arrow hits the bow a couple of times. It's way different than 0.40