Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on April 04, 2019, 01:37:53 pm
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I forget, is there any problem with bracing to early? Other than a hernia ;D
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There might be a problem, but I’ve always got it braced as soon as possible and never had any issues. It’s not bending very far, and as long as you have a good floor tiller. I don’t even do low brace anymore.
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I think bracing too early could lead to set and I wait until the end to brace. I brace it when I get it tillered out to at least 20 inches (for a 28 inch draw). I tiller on the shortest long string possible.
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I brace mine as soon as I can muscle a string on it. Low brace for me. I want it floor tillered even so that it is balanced limb to limb and then string it up. Helps me get the limbs right with a string on it.
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I think bracing too early could lead to set and I wait until the end to brace. I brace it when I get it tillered out to at least 20 inches (for a 28 inch draw). I tiller on the shortest long string possible.
These are my thoughts too.
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I never use a long string, it a LIAR! 😂
Floor tiller straight to low brace(like 4” or so) Never had a problem. Extra set? Nah you’re already ahead of all that. Once I get to 18” full fistmele brace:)
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Think about that. If you brace early, very heavy, lots of belly wood ends up on the floor. If anything has taken set, it's been removed. As you remove that wood you lighten the load as you go, so less strain on the wood, less set. Getting a string on it early means you can get the brace profile dialed in way early. Once that brace profile is right, the rest is dialing in minor adjustments as you go. Since your still heavy, a good bit of wood will still be removed. Any damaged wood ends up on the floor. I know this to be true. My bows as a rule hold their profiles well. I am the first to tell people that in this craft there are many ways to skin that cat, and I don't claim my way is the right way. It's just my way. But I will claim that my way works.
Bryce is right. Good floor tiller is critical.
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I brace(low) as soon as I can, being sure everything is good. The quicker you get to brace the sooner you see how the string tracks and if both limbs are bending evenly and together.
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probably not too much as long as the tiller shape is ok and the remaining wood removal is proportional.
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I think there are advantages to both,, not sure how to prove anything, have had good results stringing soon,, and also waiting,, (-P
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The last 2 or 3 bows I've held off on the bracing and found myself fighting a surprise hingey spot. This one came out of the glueup 40#@ about 17-18". Too close for me so I wanted to brace it right away. Seems to have worked. No surprises and still enough wood to take off so I feel safe.
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I do like Pat, Slimbob and Bryce. I go right from floor or what I call vice tiller to low brace. I'm usually pretty close on tiller. Then I just try to perfect my tiller till I reach my desired draw weight and length.
Bjrogg
PS there is always a little pucker factor on that first brace.
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Pucker time for me is that period between about 20 inches and full draw. If ones gonna break on me, that’s when it will happen. First draw to 27 inches is a relief.
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I think it can vary also,, depending on the draw weight of the bow,,the heavier bows seem to be more difficult to judge for me,,
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It seems we all do what works best for us. I cut my tip nocks and use a long string until the last few inches, like Aaron.
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Little late to the party but thought I'd throw my half a penny in the ring. I'll use a long string to get the tips bent only as far they would be if braced and maybe another inch past that. Just looking for obvious stiffs and hinges at that point. Once it looks good and the tips have moved six inches I brace it about 4" and add a twist or two to the string as I tiller and it sort of organically ends up at full brace at the end of the process. Often times there's no scraping between that and first brace if my tapers are good from the start. Was fun to read everybody's different processes.
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Very interesting thoughts on a critical topic!
I have another 1/4 cent:
As many I think directly going to brace after an good taper should be possible and going to brace early is very important to see how the string tracks. Still in most cases the bow then is way to heavy to brace or its a bad bad struggle.
Doing my first sinewed bow I was advised to build a board to exercise the sinew, further tillering and going to brace. Once on brace you can measure the draw weight on a single tip and the # you get will be the draw weight on 20 to 22" draw length. This turned out to be correct and the whole procedure indeed was very helpful and relaxed. I will probably use this method to first brace and early tillering also for next builds.
Cheers
DC: Remember that you once showed us your smart device for stringing recurved bows...
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For years I floor tillered and strung the bow to brace. I still do that if not trying to hit a specific weight. Heavy bows 70# or more it's easier to long string them especially if trying to hit say 70# for example.
Arvin
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Same here Arvin. Heavy bows get a long string. So do bows with certain issues, like bad knots or character issues. On those I’m going more slowly as a precaution. But even with those troublemakers I’m going to low brace once I feel good about the floor tiller.
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Think about that. If you brace early, very heavy, lots of belly wood ends up on the floor. If anything has taken set, it's been removed. As you remove that wood you lighten the load as you go, so less strain on the wood, less set. Getting a string on it early means you can get the brace profile dialed in way early. Once that brace profile is right, the rest is dialing in minor adjustments as you go. Since your still heavy, a good bit of wood will still be removed. Any damaged wood ends up on the floor. I know this to be true. My bows as a rule hold their profiles well. I am the first to tell people that in this craft there are many ways to skin that cat, and I don't claim my way is the right way. It's just my way. But I will claim that my way works.
Bryce is right. Good floor tiller is critical.
For the most part, yes! Absolutely. Whatever set is left in the wood a good heat treat takes care of all that nonsense now the line.
From floor tiller to low brace, then adjust the braced profile while slightly working the limbs(you can’t over exercise it) and that’s basically it. Your usually above weight, unless your making an extra heavy bow. when you start pulling the stave on the tillering setup you never need to pull past your desired weight; reducing string follow. And if the tiller is good from the start it’s just about nice even wood removal.
I’ve done this for a really long time and now, to where I brace the bow and it’s profile hardly needs messing with. Most of the time it’s spot on, give or take a 1/4”. just takes practice I guess.get a good feel of the limbs when floor tillering. I like to use my weight to judge it, just leaning on it a bit.
For heavier bows I do the same thing... sorta. I have two boat trailer rollers spaced apart and then I can take my knee and push the handle down and eye ball it, and slip a string on. Haven’t made anything over #85 mind ya.
I also use it for breaking in my laminate bows.
But like what’s been said, whatever you’re most comfortable with that gets you the results you’re aiming for is the best way to do it✌🏼
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I know this might seem counter-intuitive to some, the thinking being that avoiding undue set by avoiding the strain that bracing brings with it. The problem with that is chasing after a hinge late in the game. Bryce mentioned “nice even wood removal”. If the brace profile is good, that’s what you will be doing. The later you wait to brace it, the later you start dealing with balance issues. Balance within the limb and between the limbs. Your 4 lbs above your target and still working on the tiller. Then your 4 lbs under your target and still working on the tiller. This is not necessarily what has to happen, and many guys tiller this way successfully, but it often goes that way for the new guys. Brace early and avoid that problem.
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I know this might seem counter-intuitive to some, the thinking being that avoiding undue set by avoiding the strain that bracing brings with it. The problem with that is chasing after a hinge late in the game. Bryce mentioned “nice even wood removal”. If the brace profile is good, that’s what you will be doing. The later you wait to brace it, the later you start dealing with balance issues. Balance within the limb and between the limbs. Your 4 lbs above your target and still working on the tiller. Then your 4 lbs under your target and still working on the tiller. This is not necessarily what has to happen, and many guys tiller this way successfully, but it often goes that way for the new guys. Brace early and avoid that problem.
I think long string tillering prevents all those issues.
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I wouldn’t argue with that. My question Sleek would be how long is your long string? I long string tiller as well. My long string is long enough to get 2-3-4 inches of brace height, straight from floor tiller. Now, I’m fixing the balance and shape early. Excercise a little, work on the balance. Repeat, repeat. When it’s right, it will pretty much stay right the rest of the way, assuming I don’t screw it up. Again, not suggesting you or anyone else is wrong for using a longer long string. Lots of ways will work and I’ve tried most of them. Just food for thought.
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I'm still pretty new to the bow making game, so my method may be dead wrong, but the hand full of bows I've managed to finish tillering without a kersplosion have all come out with pretty even tiller.
My tillering string is a single ended flemish twist about 85." After floor tiller I put the fixed loop on one limb and draw the string as tight as i can, without bending the limbs, while tying a timber hitch to the other limb. I then tiller all the way out to full draw with the string at that length. Then I shorten the string up about an inch and repeat, until I shorten the string all the way down to my desired brace ht.
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I wouldn’t judge your method or any bowmakers method as right or wrong. Having been at this for decades now, what I do today is different in many ways to what it was...early on. What you described is pretty close to what I do now. What I do now is a refinement over many years of what I started out doing. Some of that refinement, in fact most of it I guess, is the result of trail and error. I would see or read something on PA, or another bowmaker I would try it. If it worked it stuck around. Point is, my approach today is different than when I started. The guy that got me started, tipistuff, doesn’t recognize my tillering method any longer because it is so different than what he taught me all those years ago (the old fart🤣). We were talking a few weeks ago and he figures he’s made over 200 bows. Though our methods are now different, the end results are the same.
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The "SAFE" approach for a "new person" is to use a long string maybe out to 20" making sure he is "balanced" and never going over their "intended draw weight"...Years ago, I ruined a hickory flatbow bracing to early, thinking it was time.......It looked like a hockey stick once strung to my surprise and beginning eye's...One limb took terrible set...And of coarse I used the step through method...Next I was sitting in a chair trying to get it off my leg...
For the experienced folks it's great we can brace early...Want to make sure we don't take a newbie down a bad road here...There's nothing wrong with taking your time on the long string folks...
Don
P.S. Give your stringing methods also
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...Next I was sitting in a chair trying to get it off my leg...
... made me laugh!... ;D
Del
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Me to Del, I think quite a few of us have been in that predicament a time or two...Lol, sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves...
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I agree with slimbob and Don. My methods have changed completely since my first couple dozen bows. I've gained much more of a feel for what a well tillered bow should look a feel like during floor tillering. ( or in my case vice tillering) It probably took me three weeks to tiller my first fairly well tillered bow. I started on long string at a very heavy floor tiller. I probably had it on the tree at least a couple hundred times. That was what I needed to do. It's how I would advise anyone starting out to proceed to. I also have done the hop around with the bow stuck on my leg routine. I have changed my method to push pull and my string to d-97. I've learned a lot about selfbows and not just making them.
Bjrogg
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I use a tiller string from floor tiller stage until I get about 8" of tip movement then I go to low brace(about 3') if everything is good, exercising easily trying not to go over ultimate draw weight. At this point I make the finished string for this bow. I use a loop at top and bowyers knot for the bottom limb and once braced and broken in I cut the tag end of the string short. This has helped me pre-stretch my B-50 strings which I have always used. If both limbs are bending evenly and together I continue on to full brace then full draw, exercise the limbs well(20 to 30 pulls to ultimate draw weight) as I remove wood. Once I'm within a few pounds of desired draw weight and everything is still OK I will shoot the bow a dozen or so times then back on the tree to see if that made a difference. Generally when I get to this point the bow is shot in and I loose very little weight, if any while sanding the tool marks out.
I generally leave the handle blocky until this point and narrow the tips only after first brace. You don't need a finished handle or finished tips to tiller a bow and leaving then wide and thick makes it easier to make adjustments if needed.
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Hey Don. Glad you checked in this Morn! I laughed out loud over the mental picture you painted for me. If you step thru, which I do, and you age from year to year, and I begrudgingly admit that I do, then ones balance may not be as sharp as it once was. The inevitable stumble fumble with a bow wrapped around your leg is somewhere on the horizon. As to your comment on safety, I will respectfully disagree. Most of the breaks I've had over the years didn't happen while bracing the bow. Most of the breaks for me anyway, happened nearer to full draw. I said earlier that my tiller method is unrecognizable to Curt, who got me started in all this. One of the areas that has not changed or diverged for either of us over the years is bracing the bow early. It's how I learned to do it. Yes, some caution is in order. Floor tiller well! By that I mean make sure when you string it that it is floor tillered well enough not to bend like a hockey stick. That's a"feel" thing that improves over time. But if you brace the bow with 1 inch, or 2 inches of brace height, and you have lots of weight left to shed, then I don't believe you will stress one near enough to break it. That shorter string will give you a truer reading on the tiller than a long string will. As Bryce said, the long string will lie to you. Want to increase the odds you come in under weight? Tiller out to near full draw with a long string. The string angle throws your weight reading off, not to mention that that long string just doesn't pull on those limbs like a short taught string will. How many times, with a long string, has everything looked really good....until you brace it, and it's a mess. Guilty here. If you have lots of weight left to remove, 4 inches at 35 lbs, no biggie. If however you are at 20 inches and 35, you get the sadz when you realize you have two untenable choices. 1. Fix the tiller and come in under weight. 2. Don't fix the tiller so that you get that 50 lb bow you wanted. If the biggest drawback is having it look like a hockey stick when you first brace it, work on your floor tiller. If your worst fear is doing the "self bow bossa nova" while performing the step thru...I'm with you on that one.
DC always comes up with good topics to discuss. Hope this hasn't driven your question into the ditch.
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I long string tiller to to 10"of string movement; not tip movement) looking for a good tiller and target weight. This puts the save 10-15" over target weight. Then I string it with the short string.
I've been doing that for years.
The bowyer can also do it by feel.
In my early days, stringing a stave that was too heavy sometimes resulted in an immediate break and so I developed this method.
Jawge
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So, as early as you can string it comfortably, as long as the bend is good? The last few have been too recurved to push/pull so I have to use my stringer.
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Bob, I have done the "self bow step through bossa nova" more than once, LOL...When I mentioned "safety" I was referring to over stressing one limb causing "set" not breakage, my appologies for not being clearer on that...There is also the difference of low brace vs full brace as we all know...I want all the "new folks" to be aware of bracing an "unbalanced" long string or floor tillered bow can cause set...It took me a while to find this uneven low brace photo...You can see the left limb was weak...If it was really weak it could have taken set at this point...As stated earlier I ruined one years ago...I know most of the guys on this thread are expirienced enough to go from floor to brace but not the newbies unless they are really lucky...This is a series of 3 pictures from "low brace unbalanced" to "full brace" and "full draw" old pics from 2014...
Don
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I guess the ends justify the means.
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The first brace will tell me if I have reduced it enough,if it's too much of a struggle I go back to floor tiller.
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yes I have had some heavy bows stuck on my leg,,more than I want to admit,, :D
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If....you are content with your particular technique... if your end result, the final product is what you were aiming for...consistently, you have little reason to change anything. What you are doing is working for you. But...if you find yourself often fighting late stage tiller issues....if that picture you posted on PA asking for tiller help, shows a bow out of kilter at near full draw....if you have been inconsistent in hitting your target weight far too often...then trying what I and others have suggested here, just might be worth a try.
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Lots of good and respectful things being said I like it. What this forum is for:)
To those that use a long string, try this; go from floor tiller to low brace, tiller to 18” then finish it on up. You’ll have that baby bending perfectly in 45 mins no problem. Well... on a stave that doesn’t have any major issues.
✌🏼