Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: MattZA on May 05, 2019, 01:32:00 am
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Hi all,
Being from Africa, I don't have experience with many of the "recognized" bow woods. Despite this, I managed to get hold of my first ever piece of white ash. Sadly it's in board form, but the grain is perfect.
Only ever having read about ash, I expected a relatively workable wood. However, as the same thickness, I've found it to be harder to cut than my usual - massa/bulletwood. I use power tools to rough out a bow and hand tools thereafter. Strangely, I found even my radial arm saw was struggling to rip it. My old belt sander might as well be giving it a tickle. Is white ash normally immensely difficult to work? Have I somehow only ever bought very light massa/bulletwood?
The question here is - how much variability can a person expect to find within a single species? I've come to expect around 15% as standard, but this seems a lot higher. Have you ever come across an anomaly?
Looking forward to your experiences. It'll be interesting to see everyone's comparisons.
Regards,
Matt
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There is huge variation in any species, especially when it comes from different continents. Ash can be very tough and it will pull the blade of a bandsaw or circular saw and cause the cut to wander. Especially if you are try to cut at a slight angle to the run of the grain
If the blade isn't good and sharp it will burn too.
That's one reason I don't use Ash much, very hard on the joints when using hand tools.
I think Ash is related to Hickory... that's tough stuff too.
I've given up trying to argue with wood (or my mrs Cat ::)) it is what it is ;D
Del
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Yup white ash is a pretty hardwood. It's all dead or dieing here from a the ash bore. Really sad as it was one of the more dominant species.
I just sawed some that were dead and put the boards on my man cave walls. They were so hard yet I couldn't drive nails. Had to drill every hole. Beautiful wood. We always called it poor mans oak. Makes nice trim.
I have a few bows I made from it before the bore took them. My first two bows where white ash. I broke the first but can't blame the wood. The second is still shooting. It took a bit of set, but I shot the daylight out of it and Rush dried it. It got me where it needed to. It would still make a hunting bow if I chose to use it for one.
Bjrogg
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It can be extremely hard ,lots of baseball bats are made from ash.
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I made 5 bass guitar bodies from ash from Pa.Very hard wood, and tough on tools.
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@Del It sounds like we're married to the similar women! ;D
@bjrogg Do you know what kind of measurements work well? I'm working with about 67" long, 1 7/8" wide. Going for 45-50# at 28#
I'm surprised to hear that ash is such a tough wood. Everything I've ever read about it suggested it was average as a bow wood - so I assumed it wasn't going to be granite in tree form. It doesn't seem there's much relationship between bow "quality" and wood workability.
Pity about the ash borer. Is it an indigenous species? Strange that considering it's becoming uncommon, yet absolutely beautiful boards are sent all the way to South Africa.
In terms of variable density do we have any information on which woods are more guilty? White woods? Diffuse-porous? Tropicals?
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Where are you from in Africa? You ought to have plenty of good bow wood in most areas. If SA, there is loads of hackberry, honeysuckle and chinese elm. Evidently most are invasive, so you ought to have a pretty unlimited source of wood. I lived in Nigeria for some time when younger with family friends and I was always impressed with african hardwoods. Don't know how easy they are to come by now, but the group loves to see what people do with local wood as well that we've never seen before. Ash is a known for its variation. Also, ash isn't normally sorted well according to species at lumber yards, so it is difficult to actually know what species of ash you are getting. It matters a great deal. Ash has its issues to begin with, so getting a nice dense piece of the right species is an important factor in making a good bow out of it. Roasting it is also another consideration to help it deal with compression issues. A side thought as far as tools go, oftentimes tools are "trained" as you use them with only certain materials. So, if you are always cutting the same sort of wood, the tool literally becomes accustomed to working this type of grain and throwing a different grained wood in there can cause issues. A lot of sawmills have this issue with pine since the random piece of compression pine that is wound to end up in there often will wreak havoc on their machines due to the change in density. I know that sounds weird, but most machinists are well aware of this. Ash has long fibers which is one reason it makes a good backing wood. This is also another reason why it becomes like condensed grass for your saw blade. You need sharpened or new blades for woods like hickory and ash. So, it is likely the difference between bullet wood and ash you are experiencing are due to the grain of the wood. I am pretty sure bullet wood is more dense than ash, but don't quote me on that. The more you work with bow woods (or just wood in general) the more you realise that you need the right tool for the wood you are using because they all react differently to different tools. Like draw knives, the quintessential tool of the bowyer. You can't use it well on certain woods without it tearing out fibres and threatening your project. All the ash I used in the past, I used a farriers rasp with after shaping it with a band saw. Later, I decided it made a much better backing than bow. As a backing it is exceptional. As a bow, not so much.
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Hi Limbit!
I am in fact from South Africa. I stay in Johannesburg. It's surprisingly not easy to source non-lumber wood in the middle of the city - people seem to get a bit upset when I knock on their door with an axe ;D
I must be honest, I've never seen any hackberry, honeysuckle or chinese elm over here. The closest I've seen to that is known as a White Stinkwood (celtis Africana). I did my trail guide qualifications quite a while ago, but I think a Hackberry is also from the species Celtis?
I have used some local woods, although nothing worked to any great satisfaction. I nearly got an absolute beauty from a wild olive (olea Europea), but it gave way after about 50 shots. I'm busy messing around with a piece of Leadwood (combretum Imberbe), which is unbelievably dense. It makes Ipe look like pine.
Interesting what you say about tools getting used to the wood. I can't account for the radial arm saw, since it actually belongs to someone else. I'm currently using my trusty farriers's rasp, since I have searched high and low and cannot find a draw knife anywhere. I'd give a leg for one.
Bulletwood is definitely heavier than Ash. When I last did a test on a spare off cut it sank like a stone. I estimate this Ash is above 0.80sg though - which is still seriously heavy. As you say, I believe it's not the best possible bow wood in self bow form - but I've never had access to it before (hell, I've never ever SEEN it before), so I couldn't resist. Fortunately I'm a 45lbs kind of guy, so I reckon it should hold up at effectively 2" wide for the majority of the 67". I will certainly give it a toast in any case, just to save weight. It's definitely American White Ash though. That much I'm certain of. The guy who imports the wood runs a tiny specialised rare wood shop. He only buys from about 4 suppliers who he trusts globally.
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I've always been curious about leadwood ever since I read about it. You'll have to make it very narrow. Really dense woods tend to have good compression, but weak tension strength. So, backing it with something might be a good idea. Maybe that ash ;-). I live in Taiwan and had a similar experience to you. I found that there were actually a lot of bow woods here, but the locals only used 3 of the dozen or so usable woods due to their traditional style of bows working best with certain kinds of wood. I ended up trying just about every North American wood that is commonly used and a bunch that aren't. Osage is still where it is at. After trying so many, you can really see why it is called the king. Yew is great, but it is harder to get and much more expensive. I personally like juniper more than anything, but it usually needs a sinew backing to make a good bow. I'm sure you'd even have a lot of fruit wood available from orchards if you ask to dig through their cuttings. Apple and plum are great. Don't the tribal people in SA use some species of acacia in their bows? You might want to ID which one. Celtis is the family name for hackberry. It makes a good bow when heat treated. Without heat treatment, it tends to take a bit much set like ash.
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Just a Thought MATT
Drawknife if cannot buy one there - i used to make wood turning tools from old files, rasps or even car leaf springs, old Bush Knife, etc - if you have a local blacksmith or even have a angle grinder and a welder - you can make one pretty easy ..
lots Info online about making knives and tools - same principal -
if doing self just eg from a old file - make sure main blade area doesn't get to hot while sharpening (dunk in water A lot) and it will keep its Hardness - can even weld handle tabs on the file without loosing hardness (wrap wet towel around middle and do small quick welds cool down between ...
Angle grinder and this sanding discs will work (use a file or leaf spring closest to correct thickness is best)
OR a blacksmith should be able heat, bend and retemper or heat treat otherwise -
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I've always been curious about leadwood ever since I read about it. You'll have to make it very narrow. Really dense woods tend to have good compression, but weak tension strength. So, backing it with something might be a good idea. Maybe that ash ;-). I live in Taiwan and had a similar experience to you. I found that there were actually a lot of bow woods here, but the locals only used 3 of the dozen or so usable woods due to their traditional style of bows working best with certain kinds of wood. I ended up trying just about every North American wood that is commonly used and a bunch that aren't. Osage is still where it is at. After trying so many, you can really see why it is called the king. Yew is great, but it is harder to get and much more expensive. I personally like juniper more than anything, but it usually needs a sinew backing to make a good bow. I'm sure you'd even have a lot of fruit wood available from orchards if you ask to dig through their cuttings. Apple and plum are great. Don't the tribal people in SA use some species of acacia in their bows? You might want to ID which one. Celtis is the family name for hackberry. It makes a good bow when heat treated. Without heat treatment, it tends to take a bit much set like ash.
Yea the leadwood I'm playing with is going to be very skinny. Less than an inch wide, in fact. And I'm going to bamboo back it. I get the feeling it's going to be quite brittle though.
It's strange how we tend to set so much store by the North American woods, yet there really isn't anything to prove that there isn't a viable wood growing right near to us. It's why I've started investigating as many as I can here. Yesterday I got hold of some Tamboti, which is a stunningly beautiful wood. It's viciously toxic though, so I need to wear a gas mask at all times when working it. I also have a contact who can get me African Blackwood at a similar price to white oak. I also chopped down a small 3" diameter African Mulberry a few days ago.
The native tribes in South Africa didn't really use bows. They went the spear route, since the terrain is too bushy to use a bow in warfare. The San and Khoikhoi bushmen made tiny bows out of whichever hard wood they could find. It didn't really matter, because they only drew around #15 and shot poison tipped arrows that just needed to break the skin. Their poison was immense, though. It would kill a 600lb Kudu male in under 30 seconds.
That said, every acacia in South Africa is heavier and harder than Osage. The trick is to find one that isn't twisted and gnarled.
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Just a Thought MATT
Drawknife if cannot buy one there - i used to make wood turning tools from old files, rasps or even car leaf springs, old Bush Knife, etc - if you have a local blacksmith or even have a angle grinder and a welder - you can make one pretty easy ..
lots Info online about making knives and tools - same principal -
if doing self just eg from a old file - make sure main blade area doesn't get to hot while sharpening (dunk in water A lot) and it will keep its Hardness - can even weld handle tabs on the file without loosing hardness (wrap wet towel around middle and do small quick welds cool down between ...
Angle grinder and this sanding discs will work (use a file or leaf spring closest to correct thickness is best)
OR a blacksmith should be able heat, bend and retemper or heat treat otherwise -
I think you're entirely right, Mark. I actually have a forge on my property. Never used it, but my cousin does. I think I'll pick up an old file or something. For the time being I bandsaw the rough shape, use a hatchet to thin the belly, and then go with my farrier's rasp when I've chopped just enough to begin floor tillering. Effective, but a lot of arm work.
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Tamboti seems interesting really interesting as well. Never heard of it. African blackwood is an excellent bow wood. I've made bows out of it before, but it is so expensive now and so endangered that I don't dare use it anymore. African mulberry should work just fine if it is anything like the American variety (or any mulberry besides paper mulberry for that matter). Before you mentioned wild olive. I've used the same species and found it to be a very usable albeit difficult to find bow wood. It is actually one of my favourite woods to use, but it has also become expensive and quite rare. Before I was ordering from a Siberian luthier company who supplied a lot of fruit woods like plum and olive. Recently, the price just keeps going up and it is outside my comfort zone to buy. I'd definitely give it another shot though. Wonderful wood and smells awesome. The traditional bowyer here in Taiwan who taught me was interested in American woods, so I would always gift him a big box every Chinese New Year as a thank you gift. After going through all the major ones like elm, ash, walnut, hophornbeam, mulberry, ERC, hackberry, oak, osage and yew, he looked at me kind of confused and mentioned he was surprised that the local jessamine wood was actually far better than all of them except Osage and yew. So, yes, every area most likely has its little treasure woods. I think what the North Americas really got is straight wood. Most other places I've been don't have a single thing growing straight half the time. You go hiking in the States and it is like window shopping for staves. I always think American bowyers are quite spoiled because of it ;-)
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Tamboti is a fascinating wood, you're right. I'll post a photo of it now. The color change between sapwood and heartwood really is that stark. Unfortunately my stave isn't that straight. Mine forms a arc of a circle tiller, resulting in about 4" of deflex. Plenty of steaming to come, I think.
Interesting that you say wild olive is rare. I've got about 10 growing in my garden. They're literally everywhere over here. I haven't ever seen a straight piece though. As you say, North America seems to be home to straight grained trees. I guess our trees resemble the African continent - harsh and requiring adaptability to succeed.
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HI Matt
Wasn't sure if you will see this on other forum section - so thought let you know - I just found a broken old saw blade and decide to make myself a Small 6" drawknife as have couple 10-12" ones but nothing small so Build along of my Knife is below
took approx 1 day was pretty easy if can use basic grinders and cut metal -
let me know if need any help - but good project ,
I made curved one as find these more useful for bows then my flat one
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,65712.0.html
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Hi Mark,
That's amazing. Thanks mate, I appreciate it!
Did you find the blade kept its edge at all? Everyone I've spoken to said they reckon it'll lose its edge badly. They were salesmen though, so I didn't take them entirely seriously.
I'll let you know how it goes! Cheers again.
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Hi Matt
Only just finished yesterday - so didn't check it out , But its definitely very hard i could tell by working it and drilling so think more lightly will chip or crack if drop it or hit a nail ,SO I am pretty sure will keep the edge very well -
i used to make woodturning chisels from Leaf springs - thats also decent material ..
but a saw blade should be plenty hard enough - online many people make normal Hunting knives from them also -
I always sharpen my tools before store them anyway - quick rub with oil stone and honing plate done
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Yup I've heard leaf springs make some good tools. I also might have an old blade from a table saw that I'm considering.
I only ever really work with very hard woods (massaranduba, Ipe, ash, balau, garapa, etc), so I'd like something that can hold an edge. Nothing more tiresome than reducing 1/2" off an entire massa belly, ha ha.
Let me know how yours works. I'll definitely investigate it!
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Most of the old saw blades now a days are carbide tooth ones. Does anyone know if the steel in the blade is any good.
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DC fortunately I discovered my old grandfather had a table saw from way back when. I suspect it was used to help Noah build the ark.
But there's still a blade in it. It's clearly blunt and rusted, but it seems to have only rusted on the surface. I think I'll try with that one as well...