Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Mesophilic on October 29, 2019, 06:45:43 pm
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I've been playing around with trade points made from thin stock high carbon blade steel. I tried heat treating with the same methods I'd use for a knife. Genetally heating just a little bit above non magnetic, and quenching in oil or brine. Temper in a toaster oven.
I've been experiencing a lot of warping out of the quench. If I grind bevels pre heat treat, I'm guaranteed warping. If I just cut and shape, and do the grinding post heat treat I still get a great deal of warping. Probably various reason for this, uneven heating is one as it's hard to deal with such little blades in the forge. Could also be that they aren't entering the quench properly aligned for the same reason and cooling one side faster.
Anyway, I'm asking this question because, is it really necessary to heat treat points? Am I over thinking/working a simple concept?
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I cut mine out of old circular saw blades that had a good carbon content.
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I know Art's blades are plenty strong enough. I stuck one in a persimmon tree at Twin Oaks 2 years ago and had to cut it out with a knife and it's still good as new.
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Art, what do you cut them to shape with? I don't have a metal cutting band saw, do have a hacksaw, and usually plenty of time! Thanks,
Hawkdancer
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Hacksaw is all I ever used Hawkdancer. Kinda tough to saw out but well worth it. Only hacksaw blade that I found that would cut out the circular blades I bought at NAPA auto part store. Gotta ask for their white bi-metal blades, avoid the unpainted ones...…...Art
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A few examples of the heads I made.
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Thanks! Off to NAPA!
Hawkdancer
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Some of these circular saw you buy today have little to no carbon content. Especially those made in China. Heads are easy to cut out from them and the finished heads won't hold an edge. Old Fire-tooth blades I made my heads out of you can shoot through game and still shave with 'em...Art
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So those blades are consistent quality all the way through, i.e. not a different temper right on the edge? And I am assuming you haven't needed to heat treat them, since you didn't mention it, and anyway that makes sense with the hacksaw...you probably aren't sawing fast enough to heat the metal up much!
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Blades have the same temper throughout Timbo. They're very time consuming to make but well worth it. I've made many trade points other the years, killed a lot of deer with them, as have many of my friends that's used them. The old saw blades had the perfect temper for a hunting head, and if you can find a hacksaw blade that won't bounce off them, then you have a wicked blade that'll hold a hair popping edge...……..Art
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I will have to give that a try. The trade points I have made from old band saw blades don't sharpen well, for me at least. Those look deadly!
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I much prefer the single bevel over the double bevel Timbo. Easier to sharpen, and IMO, penetrates better than a double bevel blade.
You do need to tanto point the single bevel blade using a double bevel design. Like this...……..
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The tanto point above is double beveled? But the rest is single bevel? Hard for me to tell in the picture.
Regarding the tanto point, does it help increase penetration in soft tissue or is it to help if you hit bone?
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I feel like the part thats hard for the arrow head to do is the initial penetration. then its just slicing with the sharp edge you gave it. the tanto point makes the initial penetration easier. if its all double beveled all the way across then there is no needle sharp tip so that what it does. it gives it a very sharp tip for initial penetration and then its easy from there.
the tanto point is double beveled and the rest is single beveled.
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Very nice points, Art! I hope mine turn out half that good!
Hawkdancer
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No, the double beveled tanto point is to prevent "deviation of penetration". Dr. Ed Ashby words, not mine. I was shooting deer and the arrow deviated or planed inside the deer. So Dr. Ashby suggested I double bevel the tanto tip. Problem solved! Art
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No, the double beveled tanto point is to prevent "deviation of penetration". Dr. Ed Ashby words, not mine. I was shooting deer and the arrow deviated or planed inside the deer. So Dr. Ashby suggested I double bevel the tanto tip. Problem solved! Art
Dang I love the internet, never would've thought of this solution. And to hear it came from Ed Ashby... ;D
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Art,
I believe the saying is something like "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"! Can we copy your point designs? Thanks!
Hawkdancer
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Can we copy your point designs? Thanks!
Well this is the internet, they're probably alrrady in production in China by now. But if he'd be so kind as to post dimensions and maybe draw us a blue print it would go alot smoother >:D
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Sure Hawkdancer, you more than welcome to copy my points.
You're right Dieselcheese, you would think there would be something on the market by now. I posted these on the old PA message some years ago. Most of my points run anywhere from 1" to 1 1/8" wide and up to 3" long...….Art
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I much prefer the single bevel over the double bevel Timbo. Easier to sharpen, and IMO, penetrates better than a double bevel blade.
You do need to tanto point the single bevel blade using a double bevel design. Like this...……..
That point exudes D E A T H.
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I've been playing around with trade points made from thin stock high carbon blade steel. I tried heat treating with the same methods I'd use for a knife. Genetally heating just a little bit above non magnetic, and quenching in oil or brine. Temper in a toaster oven.
I've been experiencing a lot of warping out of the quench. If I grind bevels pre heat treat, I'm guaranteed warping. If I just cut and shape, and do the grinding post heat treat I still get a great deal of warping. Probably various reason for this, uneven heating is one as it's hard to deal with such little blades in the forge. Could also be that they aren't entering the quench properly aligned for the same reason and cooling one side faster.
Anyway, I'm asking this question because, is it really necessary to heat treat points? Am I over thinking/working a simple concept?
I'm wondering if heat treating can do much to improve a high carbon steel head. But then again, trade points are new to me. Why would you want to heat treat trade points. How thin are they? Curious...
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I'm wondering if heat treating can do much to improve a high carbon steel head. But then again, trade points are new to me. Why would you want to heat treat trade points. How thin are they? Curious...
What set me down this path was reading Dr. Ed Ashby's research on broadheads and penetration. One of his guidelines is that a broadhead should neither bend or break when it hits bone. Essentially a spring temper.
The 15N20 steel I'm using is aprox .07 thick and fully annealed, so it will definately bend if it hits something solid. It also won't take or hold much of an edge in this state, and the edge will roll easily.
I'd have to look it up but I think Ashby recommends a hardness in the low 50's.
The saw blade points (from old saw blades mentioned above) are probably already at the perfect hardness. If they were much harder it would be almost impossible to cut by hand with a hacksaw, and based on his difficulty of finding rhe perfect hacksaw blade for the job they are definitely at a good tough spring tempering
Many modern files, saw blades, and tools made in China are done from low quality metal and case hardened. Probably won't take a heat treating at all.
I'm able to take the warp out of some of the points by clamping them to steel in a reverse position in the tempering oven, but it's tedious and time consuming.
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Here's a couple of last year's points made from .09 15n20. I had to drill holes to get the weight down from 200 grains to 150 grains to get my arrow weight and spine where I wanted them. The edge performs very well, even in the broadhead sand pit at at the archery range.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/30914b4d58657a25dddbd841244f0d32/0661a87816d180d0-a6/s1280x1920/2aeb6675c59e21f1128133b6eac4d99543fbd3fa.jpg)
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Awesome heads Dieselcheese! I developed a tangless system for some of my heads. It helps reduce weight and/or allows me to make a larger head and still make weight...…….Art
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Awesome heads Dieselcheese! I developed a tangless system for some of my heads. It helps reduce weight and/or allows me to make a larger head and still make weight...…….Art
I was looking at archer1's tang-less points above. How do you guys attach them?
I'm not very good at cutting slots in the shafts yet. There's usually a little play or slop, or they aren't completely parallel to the shaft. To make up for this I use a gap filling epoxy made by mixing a slow cure epoxy with silica powder, this thickens it up like cake icing. Sometimes I add a little charcoal powder to at least make it look like pine pitch glue. Then after the point is in place I shim it with little bits of bamboo skewer to align it properly within my sloppy slot. Once the epoxy is cured I wrap the shaft with sinew, sand it smooth, and paint over it to weatherproof a bit.
Would this process work without a tang?
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First off, I only use my tangless broadheads on hardwood shafts or hardwood foots and hardwood conical inserts (for cane/bamboo shafts). I first taper the shaft, glue on a matching (in weight) field point and shoot the arrow to make sure it's suitable for a broadhead. Then I remove the field point and cut in a slot to the depth of 1". After that I groove the next 1/2" using a chisel made from a saw blade (metal is the same thickness as my blades). I'll bring up a pic, but you'll have to look close to see the groove....Art