Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on January 09, 2020, 01:13:55 pm
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I just unwrapped a glue up. I glued it one limb at a time and wound up with a little more reflex in one limb. I'm thinking it should be the bottom limb but I'm just making sure I'm right. Am I?
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How much is "a little" You may want to wait unil you have it tillered out a fair ways to see if it still retains the discrepancy.
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that sounds like a good plan :)
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How I'd answer would depend on how you make bows. If you're one who builds them all with a stronger looking lower limb as a default, I'd say put it on the top.
If you balance the strength of the limbs at full draw relative to your holds on bow and string, then it hardly matters whether it's top or bottom. With a bow like you have there, brace height may look 'odd', but if odd is what balances it best, that's what it should be.
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I'll just keep on keepin' on then. I was thinking that if I did it "right" I could get it balanced and have the tiller look right too. Maybe I still can.
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I'd use it for bottom limb.
Bjrogg
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Top limb :)
Why would you want more strain on the lower limb....the one (generally) limb you see weak on out of tiller bows :) Check out the position of your drawing hand fingers on the string...above center? Therefore the lower limb works harder. Don't make it work harder still :)
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I think you want the strongest limb on the bottom. More reflex means more resistance; more strength.
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Top limb :)
Why would you want more strain on the lower limb....the one (generally) limb you see weak on out of tiller bows :) Check out the position of your drawing hand fingers on the string...above center? Therefore the lower limb works harder. Don't make it work harder still :)
Thanks for the opposite view. I asked the question because in the back of my mind there was a little voice saying,"I don't know for sure". When you called it strain rather than strength it made me wonder again. "If" the reflexed limb is pulled the same distance as the other it will be stronger but when you draw a bow does it rock in your hand to equalise the two limbs? The stronger limb will stay straighter so does that always mean the weaker limb is strained more? Is this situation the same as a straight bow having a stronger limb or does it being reflex somehow make it different?
I'm babbling ;D
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If u gonna just look at it either way is fine...if u gonna shoot it there will be a difference,,,,especially if shooting off ur hand,..and the shorter the bow seems to make more difference,,,in how smooth the arrow comes off,..this can vary with shooting style of course...making one limb a bit stiffer,,,can make the bow shoot better or easier to tune the arrow flight....don't ask me how it does it.. ( the way u hold the bow,,.finger pressure on string,,,etc etc etc come into play how much you would adjust tiller,,,when it shoots great,,,the tiller is right,,.no one size fits all
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I think that the nock height adjustment is just compensating for limb imbalance. Just thought I'd throw that in.
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DC,,.,I think that too,..but that adjustment will only get u so far,,, :) the only reason to make one limb appear stiffer is to make the bow shoot better
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Yeah, you don't want your RD looking like a yumi ;D ;D
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"If" the reflexed limb is pulled the same distance as the other it will be stronger..."
Are you sure about that?
First of all, we can make either limb stronger or weaker by how much wood we remove, so.
Secondly, if they DO start off the same strength, and are in fact "pulled the same distance", in other words, both limb tips travel the same distance respective of where they started, they will gain strength very similarly.
"...but when you draw a bow does it rock in your hand to equalise the two limbs?"
Only if the strength of the limbs are unbalanced, relative to the holds on bow and string.
That is a goal in balancing the bow, to get the limbs, despite any internal or outwardly visible differences, to travel the same distance during the draw relevant to the original handle position, or i.e., without the handle rocking or tilting in the bow hand. When this is done, the arrow nock comes straight back along an imaginary line perpendicular to the shelf... and leaves along the same path... straight away.
A bow with one straight limb and one noticeably reflexed limb should still reveal those differences at brace, and still, perhaps to a lesser extent, at full draw... but that shouldn't be the goal, or a guide. Instead, ignore that, and balance the limbs so the nock comes straight back without tilting the handle, and the profile at brace is whatever it is. It should be a 'result' of the balance... not a guide(guess) to it.
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People don’t like their bows looking out of tiller at brace, Jeff.
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I knew I was gonna get confused,,, :NN
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Are you sure about that?
I made a choice to never be sure of anything. I feel that being "sure" of something leads to a closed mind. I'll only go as far as "pretty sure". :D
That said, I was assuming same thickness etc. but it doesn't have to be does it. So if we make the reflexed limb a little thinner it could be the same as the other limb. I guess we've all made bows that have a little reflex in one limb and none in the other. But now I'm losing track of my original question so I'll rephrase it
If I have one limb with more reflex can I have a balanced bow that looks right at brace and full draw? Can I achieve this by putting the reflexed limb at the top or bottom?
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I knew I was gonna get confused,,, :NN
Sorry :D
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ok Im pretty sure you can do it,,
I usually put the reflexed limb at the top,, not sure how it gonna look on your bow,,
my thinking has been,, that if some of the reflex comes out,, I want that on the top limb,, so I still have a positive tiller,,
Im pretty sure it has worked fine like that,, but open to suggestions on what would work better,, :)
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Are the limbs equal in length?
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"People don’t like their bows looking out of tiller at brace, Jeff."
I know bud, trust me, I know ::) That's one of the reasons I pass on most of these tiller conversations nowadays. The fact that they're not open to it is an issue because many bows should look 'out of tiller' in order to be tillered their best. A bow with reflex in just one limb is one of them.
Note my signature... ;)
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Are the limbs equal in length?
Yes
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Ok can u try it one way,,,and if not happy turn it over,,.I always like to leave my options open in case im wrong )P(
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Yup, haven't touched the handle yet ;D
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"If I have one limb with more reflex can I have a balanced bow that looks right at brace and full draw?"
Maybe. Maybe not. If the handle is kept straight/level, how much difference is there in the limbs of your stave? 'Looks right' is subjective. Forget 'looks right'. You want a bow that ACTS right. So the questions should be...
A). If I have one limb with more reflex, can I have a balanced bow that acts right? B). What would it look like at full draw and at brace height... after balancing?
A) Yes. It can and should be balanced to act right.
B) How it would look after being taught to act right, after balancing and good tillering, like other bows, depends on limb unbraced profiles, center and fulcrum locations, etc. Additionally, with bows like this, the limb with more reflex will 'appear' to flex less in the reflexed area and seem a little stronger overall than it would otherwise at both full draw and brace. It may not be, in either instance. But it will appear that way.
"Can I achieve this(lookin 'right' at brace and balanced at full draw) by putting the reflexed limb at the top or bottom?"
Only if your previous straight bows that 'looked right' were never truly balanced. Since they're different, if the tiller measurements are made to be the same, if either is right, only one can be.
If a straight bow looks a certain way at brace after being balanced at full draw, what makes us think a bow with one reflexed limb, after being balanced at full draw, would, could, or should result in the same tiller measurements or profile at brace? Sure, you could make the tiller measurements the same at brace, but is it 'right' at full draw where it really matters? Is either one? How do you know?
What if one limb was reflexed and the other was deflexed? Make it look 'right' at brace too? I'd be afraid to let the string go of that thing.
I know it's tempting, but don't try to predetermine/guess how a bow will balance at full draw by making it measure or look a certain way at brace. I balance mine all the same way. Some end up positive, some negative, some even.... but they're all 'right'.
For some reason, this is a big hurdle for a lot of folks when it comes to making wooden bows. They want their bows, regardless of their differences, to look a certain way at brace, and basically all the same... with a slightly stronger lower limb, for instance. Probably because that's what they've been told, it's familiar, seems better/easier(it isn't), and it's perhaps their only beacon during the process. Unfortunately, that's probably not how they're going to make their best bows.
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Situation like that DC, I'd study the limb's growth ring structure to make a determination on which limb should be what. Reflex alone isn't an indication of a limb being stronger...….Art
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I don't think I have the ability to do that. I wouldn't know good grain from bad. :D I think it's a non issue in this case as it's a billet bow and the limbs sat side by each in the log.
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I like when PatM says splitting hairs )P(
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I feel that the split finger draw adds strain to the bottom limb. I'd put it on the bottom. Sure both limbs should be balanced at full draw in the hand or rope and pulley with no rocking in either.
But I would like that balancing to continue as the bow is shot for a few years. I feel that the reflexed limb though bending evenly with the top limb would keep on keeping on.
Jawge
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U might be right bout that,..that's why I am confused in my thinking,..I have one bow I hunt with,,.the bottom limb kept getting a bit weaker,..the bow was short,.I was pushing the wood for sure,,.finally after taking wood off top limb several times it settled in nice tiller and has stayed,,.I think on the shorter bows,,.the pressure on bottom limb is more critacal
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U might be right bout that,..that's why I am confused in my thinking,..I have one bow I hunt with,,.the bottom limb kept getting a bit weaker,..the bow was short,.I was pushing the wood for sure,,.finally after taking wood off top limb several times it settled in nice tiller and has stayed,,.I think on the shorter bows,,.the pressure on bottom limb is more critacal
So the bottom limb took more set than the top. The knee jerk reaction is to make the bottom stiffer but if you leave it thicker it's going to take more set isn't it? So is it making it stiffer what caused the problem in the first place? Maybe if you left it wider instead of thicker? This stuff makes my head hurt. It all seems to go in circles ;D
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Here's the bow. You guys with better eyes may see more than me. Bottom (left) limb is the one with more reflex. If you look about 6" to the right of the handle you may see a tad more bend(tiny hinge, you can see it if you sight down the bow). I think this is where 90% of the set came from. I think there's about 1" set, it's hard to tell when you chop some off the tips halfway through and forget to measure.
The hinge came from where I glued on the "riser" and the had to blend it in with the limb. I messed up and had a bit of a dip there in the early going. That part always gives me trouble, I'll try to leave more wood there in the future.
Anyway the good news 40.5#@28". 190fps consistently, best of 192 early in the finishing. Thats with a 406 grain arrow. 10grpp. I'm pleased with that. next one will be the same but hopefully I can avoid the hinge.
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nice work, I cant see the hinge,, maybe (hinge) is making it shoot in the 190's,,,ok you only need a few fps to hit 200.... do you think one more inch of reflex would do it,,,???? on the next one,,
on my bow,, I think the bottom limb was just not stabalized,,I think the way I was holding the string was putting more pressure on the bottom limb,,it finally settled in, I made the top limb weaker to match it and it was fine,,
the bow shot better with the postive tiller,, on that bow,, I could shoot it with either limb up and did,,but like I said when the tiller settled,,it stayed fine and shot well,, with the bottom limb "looking" a bit stiffer,, at full draw they may have been even,,but when it started shooting well,, I stopped looking at it,,
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"People don’t like their bows looking out of tiller at brace, Jeff."
I know bud, trust me, I know ::) That's one of the reasons I pass on most of these tiller conversations nowadays. The fact that they're not open to it is an issue because many bows should look 'out of tiller' in order to be tillered their best. A bow with reflex in just one limb is one of them.
Note my signature... ;)
Jeff, your insights are appreciated by some. Don't pass too often, just keep posting as you wish
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That was an explanation, not a criticism.