Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Mpares on April 12, 2020, 11:37:58 pm
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Hey guys,
So I'm making my first 2 board bows, making 2 just for the extra experience, and I have been having a lot of trouble with tear out when tilling with my block plane. Does anyone have any advice for this? I have just sharpened the blade, the 2 boards are off the same rack and 1 board had a few minor defects to begin with. I can upload some pictures later. I decided when I bought these boards I would be ok if neither turned out, but I want to make sure atleast I'm practicing properly and not doing something completely backwards.
Thanks for the help in advance!
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Google it first. Practise and do lots of it.
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What kind of wood? Is the grain straight or at all funky? Have you planed other hardwoods with this plane with success prior to this? Is the plane set up properly to take very light cuts?
Mark
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Lot's of things may help... but in the end some areas just won't plane well... take a pencil and write "R" on those area to remind you to use a rasp.
Things that help:-
1. Sharp blade.
3. Hold the plane at an angle rather than square on to the direction of travel, so that it slices rather than chisels.
E.G \ -> rather than | ->
3. Try planing from opposite direction
Del
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Try planing across the bow but there is a reason low angle block planes were invented. Some grain is too curly to plane so switch to a rasp or scraper.
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I would ditch the block plane for a card scraper or file.
I use a half pair of scissors and roll a hook on them with an Accu Sharp scissors sharpener.
(https://i.imgur.com/8yhCgMP.jpg)
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I have never used a block plane to reduce wood on a stave ,or board.I use a draw knife, a sharp knife ,and a series of good wood rasps, and if I think their is going to be a potential tear out such as knots I use nothing but the rasps. I learned that the hard way. Just my way, but their are other ways too that are may be better, but that is what works best for me.
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If you start pulling out chunks of wood, use a rasp and/or micro-plane instead.
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Like Del said turn yourself or the stock around. Jawge
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What sort of block plane do you have? eg low angle bed 12 deg, or a normal angle 20 deg bed. Some people call any hand held plane a block plane. On block planes you can see the bevel of the blade, ie bevel up. Bevel down blades are regular handplanes.
Say you have a low angle plane, with a 30 deg bevel on the blade, you effectively have a plane that attacks the wood at 42 deg(30+ 12).
This is a good for straight grained softwoods or end grain, not so good for hardwood or spots of swirling grain or knots.
A normal angle block plane, with a 30 deg bevel on the blade, you have a plane the attacks the wood at 50 deg. This is better for hardwoods. Even so 50 deg may not be enough in some woods to stop tear out. You could increase the bevel to 35 deg, which gives your plane 55 deg, which can deal with tricky wood even better.
60 deg is probably the best angle of attack for a plane, for tricky wood. Higher than that, up to 90 deg are usually termed scraper planes.
To get 60 deg or higher angle with a block plane you have to put a back bevel on the blade(the side of the blade against the plane's bed).
eg normal angle block plane 20 deg bed, 35deg primary bevel, 5 deg back bevel. 60 deg total angle.
low angle block plane 12 deg bed angle, 35 deg primary bevel, 10 deg back bevel 57 deg total angle.
" " " " " " " " " " " " , 15 deg back bevel 63 deg total angle.
If you have a plane with an adjustable throat, you can reduce tear out by closing it down as much as possible, and only taking a shallow shaving.
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Google it first. Practise and do lots of it.
Been doing some googling, this is just extra research. Most everything I found on google was about hand planers as opposed to block planers and I've tried some of the suggestions, I.E sharpening the blade, which I'm going to do again as it's not quite where I want it and messing the planer. I'm just looking for some bowyer specific advise here :) Also my mouth of my block planer is not adjustable which was the main suggestion I found
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What kind of wood? Is the grain straight or at all funky? Have you planed other hardwoods with this plane with success prior to this? Is the plane set up properly to take very light cuts?
Mark
The wood is pretty straight, 1 board has run off at one point but other than that it's pretty good, my only concern was that one board also had a couple of spots of tear-out when I bought it and they're probably made from the same tree. Haven't had any success yet as this is my first project. Any advice on some setup videos or particular tutorials you've used in the past?
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I would ditch the block plane for a card scraper or file.
I use a half pair of scissors and roll a hook on them with an Accu Sharp scissors sharpener.
(https://i.imgur.com/8yhCgMP.jpg)
Thanks Eric! Do you have any recommendations on card scraper brands? I'm pretty good a getting my knives sharp using some water stones I have but I think I would rather attempt it was an actual card scraper before modifying some scissors!
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What sort of block plane do you have? eg low angle bed 12 deg, or a normal angle 20 deg bed. Some people call any hand held plane a block plane. On block planes you can see the bevel of the blade, ie bevel up. Bevel down blades are regular handplanes.
Say you have a low angle plane, with a 30 deg bevel on the blade, you effectively have a plane that attacks the wood at 42 deg(30+ 12).
This is a good for straight grained softwoods or end grain, not so good for hardwood or spots of swirling grain or knots.
A normal angle block plane, with a 30 deg bevel on the blade, you have a plane the attacks the wood at 50 deg. This is better for hardwoods. Even so 50 deg may not be enough in some woods to stop tear out. You could increase the bevel to 35 deg, which gives your plane 55 deg, which can deal with tricky wood even better.
60 deg is probably the best angle of attack for a plane, for tricky wood. Higher than that, up to 90 deg are usually termed scraper planes.
To get 60 deg or higher angle with a block plane you have to put a back bevel on the blade(the side of the blade against the plane's bed).
eg normal angle block plane 20 deg bed, 35deg primary bevel, 5 deg back bevel. 60 deg total angle.
low angle block plane 12 deg bed angle, 35 deg primary bevel, 10 deg back bevel 57 deg total angle.
" " " " " " " " " " " " , 15 deg back bevel 63 deg total angle.
If you have a plane with an adjustable throat, you can reduce tear out by closing it down as much as possible, and only taking a shallow shaving.
Thanks Hamish, It's got a 25deg bevel on it and I believe the angle is about 22.5deg, so just shy of 45deg or maybe even bang on. Not sure how I would go about increasing the angle but I can watch some videos on that. I might look into a low angle block plane or even one with and adjustable throat. I would also be interested in trying out some of the other tools people have suggested.
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The wood is pretty straight, 1 board has run off at one point but other than that it's pretty good, my only concern was that one board also had a couple of spots of tear-out when I bought it and they're probably made from the same tree. Haven't had any success yet as this is my first project. Any advice on some setup videos or particular tutorials you've used in the past?
The reason I ask about your past success is because planing on a soft piece of spruce is dead easy compared to most of the hard woods bows are made from. There has been a lot of good advice posted here already, but I would suggest using a rasp instead as it is so much easier to remove wood and it is more versatile for getting into tighter spaces than a plane. If you are dead set on using the plane, have a look at these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBFfFhQzkhY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYiALzXkOWk&list=WL&index=6&t=843s
Mark
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There are plenty of good youtube videos that cover block planes(as you have probably found out).
One tool I can highly recommend, for board bows is the Mujingfang Handle-less mini polishing plane plane.(make sure its that model as they have many similar looking planes but they aren't the one you should get.)
Its a little bigger than a matchbox, looks like it would be a good ornament to hang a key chain from(plane is under 3" long actually). It made of ebony or rosewood, no metal besides the blade. Its quite simple to set and adjust with a little practice. Blade width only 7/8.(though you can buy a slightly bigger model)
Blade is HSS, which means it will keep going for many, many more times than a regular tool steel blade, before it needs sharpening(when you do sharpen it takes some time because it is so tough).
The beauty of this tool is that its bed is 60deg high angle plane with bevel down. Or you can flip the blade bevel up and it becomes a 90 deg scraper plane for really ornery wood.
This plane is my bowmakers secret weapon, and it also gets used on virtually every other woodworking project. It can get in virtually anywhere, and handle the most difficult woods.
Because the plane is so small you can use it to tiller a strung bow.
The best thing about it is the price, you should be able to get one for about $15-20. The biggest problem is trying to find someone that sells them. I think its because they are so tiny no one takes them seriously as a useful tool. Ebay used to have tons of them. But because they are made in China, there aren't any on offer at the moment due to the CHY- NA virus.
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It has been my experience that all card scrapers are created pretty much equal. I have expensive ones and cheap ones, properly sharpened they all cut the same, watch the sharpening videos on youtube.
Rolling a hook on scissors is super easy, once you turn the scissors into a scraper they will no longer be of any use for cutting as you will ruin the normal cutting surface.
Here is an accusharp scissors sharpener, all you do to make a hook is first flatten the back on a stone then is drag the sharpener down the blade bevel at a steeper angle than the factory bevel. Drag a couple times and check for a hook, continue until you have a defined hook. The scissors aren't hardened steel so your hook will dull quicker than a card scraper, in less than a minute you can redo it.