Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Selfbowman on May 14, 2020, 08:06:23 am
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Thinking of making a water buffalo cross bow. Suggestions and pics of some good ones please. Arvin
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Sounds like a worth while adventure.Short draw/lots of early draw weight,but that might be the achillese heel as horn bows shine brighter with more extended draw.
All horn and sinew??? or to keep it more stable a thick core of wood but with enough composite material to handle the stress?
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All about 30” in length. I was thinking all Horn but I know nothing about it. Arvin
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Need a bit more info. really, are you thinking of an asian style composite bow sized to fit cross-bow dimensions, or, were you thinking of going all medieval composite bow? Can't really beat the work a A.Bichler on Historia Vivens 1300. Wish I could, keep on trying but he's so much better than I am, will get there one day...............
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Seems to me that medieval ones used both types of construction and many pieces of horn to build up the thickness needed.
Look up medieval horn crossbows and see what you find
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Hey now that I have a new Phone I can post pics!!!! Here is some I have built as of late. Arvin
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Guys I don’t know what those look like . Maybe the limbs would be all horn mounted on to a deflexed wood cross and rail. Show the country boy some options. Arvin
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OK, so, medieval crossbows were all about raw power and never mind the efficiency, they used a brick-wall type structure of very narrow horn slats laid flat and built up as a wall thereby avoiding the horn delaminating - a 10mm thick strip of horn will de-laminate very quickly if you try and bend it very far. A 10mm thick horn structure with a 10mm thick layer of sinew is good for 250lb but cutting all those horn strips, straightening them, grooving them, gluing them together and then shredding all that sinew and laying it on and then leaving it for 12 to 24 months to cure is a lot of work. Trust me I know.
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Golly Stuck why don’t you blow my bubble a bit faster next time. You must know my patience limits!😳
Can you just use the thickness of the horn? Arvin
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(https://stuckinthemudsite.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/screenshot_20191015-142448_word8673281516210988289-e1571146155160.jpg)
Send me all that horn and I'll build it for you >:D
This is one by Andreas Bichler, the bow tiller is lovely and simple, all wood construction, push-pin firing mechanism. Sweet. I can't think of a reason an Asian style crossbow wouldn't work, just because no-pne ever did it, doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Efficiency instead of power, 150 lbs wouldn't be an unreasonable draw weight. Would be a fun project
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As far as using the thickness of the horn, I don't think so. Buffalo horn de-laminates really easily, I've taken to splitting mine down to size instead of sawing it. Big-horn sheep hprns make good bpws, there's a few in the horn-bows section. It may be that my horns are weaker than many and someone can chime in with a more definitive answer but I think you run a big risk of pulling a buffalo horn bow to brace and having it pull itself apart. Never made one that way, never seen one made that way, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, I just haven't come across one yet.
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Here is what I was thinking. I hope the project would turn out better than I draw! Arvin
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Pretty innovative design Arvin.That could very possibly work quite well.Don't know exactly how high of poundage a person could get.A half inch thick limb would be quite a bit IMO though.I'd be leaning to use gemsbok horn possibly.
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I think I would reflex it rather than deflex to get the sinew working (you are planning on using sinew?)
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Horn by itself will shoot...but not very well!
I don't know why you think buffalo horn delaminates? Sure you can get pieces with checks in that go further than you can see but solid, well dried material is absolutely bombproof.
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I am aware of the brick pattern horn used with horn crossbows. There is a good book, in German, Die Hornbogenarmbrust, by Holger Richter that shows historical examples of it and how to reconstruct one.
I have often wondered why they didn't use the method used for Asiatic horn composite flight , hunting and warbows, with the full length of horn, and a stiff wooden core, backed with sinew. Whether it was due to not getting enough draw weight, was my guess, I had not considered the potential for delamination, as I have no experience with making horn bows.
Regular horn/sinew composites seem to be able to have extremely long draw lengths, for the shortness of the bow, so its probably possible for a hunting weight bow, maybe not for a bow suitable for dealing with plate armour, or a siege artillery weight bow? Just a thought.
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Hi Arvin, It looks like you have backed the top 2 bows in your photo, with horn(or is it some other material)? If true, how do they perform?
I have heard of baleen being used as a backing(and a belly too). I have often wondered how horn would go as a backing.
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Hamash the black bows are backed with Gemsbok. The bamboo backed bow has gemsbok on the belly. It also has a bamboo core. Pretty lite in mass has good cast. The Osage backed with gemsbok real descent cast. I put gemsbok on the belly of a Osage selfbow it broke records but had less performance than the other combinations. The boo backed had the best performance.it has not been officially been shot at a flight shoot yet.
Bownara is the all horn doggy because of mass. I found the horn to be heavy. Gemsbok seams to work better on the back of wood. But the belly of bamboo.
Arvin
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How much braced draw might be in a 100-120# cross bow ?Like 15” added to brace.also how much working limb.
Arvin
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Yes horn comes out at around 1.3s.g.
Make a horn/wood/sinew composite of any design and stick it on a stock. Simple :)
They used multiple pieces of horn to make the super high draw weight bows.
Nothing at all wrong with making a true composite and mounting it on a stock, if you only want upto around 200#
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I don't know why you think buffalo horn delaminates? Sure you can get pieces with checks in that go further than you can see but solid, well dried material is absolutely bombproof.
Well, because some of the horn that I have did/does, also there is a quote in the Baron de Cason manuscript about horn crossbow reconstruction that says exactly that - heavy horn-bows are built up instead of using the thickness of the horn because the horn splits apart. I have only a small batch of horn and it may be poor quality but just saying what I have experienced. Anyway, if I were the OP, I agree, just build a nice simple Asiatic composite, make it short and have fun. 30cm draw instead of 30 inches would that make the bow about 70cm ttt? The brick-wall construction is only necessary for draw weights of over 200lb
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Look at this: - 67 horn strips, 825g of sinew and 1257 lb ;D ;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA5M0QKXtWU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA5M0QKXtWU&feature=youtu.be)
basically you could also do a sinew/horn only composite without wood like some us-native and indonesian bows...
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I agree with bownarra about no concern about delaminations happening with water buffalo horn.
Cool bows you made there.Years ago I made some BBO's D/R 64" long with horn bellys[gemsbok].I liked them.That horn will put a lot of stress on the bamboo.Good quality bamboo is a must.
People who've not fooled with horn always seem to worry about the extra mass horn can put on a bow.I've found in the end after tillering the bows are actually way under mass weight compare to all wood bows.The same happens when sinewing a bow too.The bows get narrower reducing mass.In the process of making those bows I took notice exactly what thickness of horn would give for draw weight also.
You might be on your own groping to find out this draw weight concern.Pretty sure though with that design you showed you can get 80 to 90 pounds yet though at the 15" draw length.I'd still be worried about cast speed though.
Very cool U tube simk.I'd hate to get hit by that bolt.Instant death!!!!!
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Simk this bow would hopefully be a flight bow. I noticed the size of bolts in the video. Massive!!! The record is held by a commercial made bow. 444 yds I think. So it’s primitive vs modern. Just something to pass time during covrt 19.
Arvin
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Heat straighten horn.
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Limb on caul. More heat.
Arvin
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Hey pappy, Pat , somebody. If this should be on horn page can one of y’all move if need be cause I am not smart enough. If alright here that’s fine too. Arvin
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Ed if I was to do a good tiller on these limbs how far do you think I could take that horn? Straight or past straight? The radius on out side of caul is about 18” from end to end. Probably need 3” of that to mount limbs. Leaving 15”.Arvin
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(-P (-P (-P arvin messin' around with horn (-P (-P (-P looking forward for the pics to come. thanks for sharing (-S
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Ed if I was to do a good tiller on these limbs how far do you think I could take that horn? Straight or past straight? The radius on out side of caul is about 18” from end to end. Probably need 3” of that to mount limbs. Leaving 15”.Arvin
A good tiller would be a must have and how thick your horn is too.Horn cannot take much tension work alone.I'd put sinew over the back.
A friend of mine liked to put horn on the back of long bows in a non stressful design at 64" and longer.They would never break but it's a different story with short limbs and reflexed a lot more.Good thing is wider and shorter lengths of horn would be easier to get stable the way you had it pictured.
You'll just have to try it.Maybe break a horn or two and try again.
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Steam is best for heating the horn. I wouldn't use the heat gun. Too dry.
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Stuck - you must have had some dodgy horns then.
Making a 1000#+ crossbow wasn't what the op had in mind I presume....;)
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Yes I think you're right about that, mine splits apart very easily
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Yes the distributor or his preparer may have damaged it in some way.
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Bownara I have used the heat gun successfully on gemsbok both to flatten and correct the limbs laminates from side to side. I keep the heat moving though. Alan Case recommended bamboo on the
back. I am experimenting for the most part. If all horn fails or is doggy I will thin it a bit and put bamboo on the limbs. Arvin
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I'd tend to agree with Alans' recommended backing there.It'll do the job and help with stability also.
What glues to use do you have in mind Arvin?
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Ed I have been using smooth on for the gemsbok with success. I was told that was best. I have good hide glue and unibond. Arvin
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Same here Arvin.It'll do the job.Never used unibond yet though.
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The bamboo is 14” node to end of bamboo.
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You've thought the node placement out good too.Long spaced node intervals on that bamboo.
I think it's quite the interesting project Arvin.When done take it along to Mo Jam.
I can't help but feel that bamboo will be put under extreme tension work though with that amount of reflex.Might work though.It'll be a test for it that's for sure.Other bamboo backed bows have been successful with that amount of reflex.This one won't be drawn near as far as the bow would too which gives it a better chance of survival.
Remember to document the building of it.
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Ed Alan said the same about the bamboo being taken to the max! If doesn’t ruin the horn if she was to go I’ll go back with thicker boo and take off more horn. Arvin
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I don’t think I will be able to get more than about 18” of draw if that much with 15” limbs. Question:
Would string angle be better with the limbs close together or farther apart??
Arvin
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I’ve seen a couple medieval French made crossbows at the Met museum in New York. Multiple strips with heavy sinew backing and a thick sinew wrap. They look to be over 300# draw. No need to groove the horn strips with the sinew wrap.
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Ed I was told unibond don’t stick to horn that good. But never tried it.
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A bit of Osage for filler.
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Good idea.I can't help but compare it to 2 halves of a gemsbok horn connected to a wood handled filler.Not near the mass though in the limbs to slow it down.It's a balancing act with a shorter draw on yours.
Good point about grooving that boo and horn too by Chuck.Although I've seen FG recurved tips stepped on to be flat by an FG bow maker to prove the strength of smooth-on and no delamination occured.
Well if it is'nt enough poundage weight a guy could still put a 1/4" thick sinew over it yet,but that will pull that sucker into more reflex yet!Assuming it holds together,which I think it might.
I think string angle would be better farther apart feel wise on a regular bow but this is a locked in cross bow.Closer together would put more strain on the limbs.Making best use of horn.It's your call.When the limbs are that short I'm not sure it'll make any difference in speed.
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Limbs close to bamboo stage. Optimistic 😁 Started a bolt. Weighs 450gr
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Yes Ed on the gemsbok horn put together in the handle. I hear they are real doggy.😁
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It would be neat to get a white tail with it I think.I watched them make a steel cross bows on Forged in Fire program.You could tell they were not bow makers.Arrow flight and accuracy was very poor.Very slow bows too.
Nice bolt...I just hope the limbs will be long enough to store enough energy for a hunting weight arrow.
Hard to keep track of the hours spent making something like this with all the tweaks and adjustments made.
Those gemsbok horn bows looked neat and probably would last 2 lifetimes but were poor performers.
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Got this one pretty close to the caul. Is there some other reason the heat gun won’t work?
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Pic
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Wrong pic
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Interesting. A few years back all the horn bow guys on here were very outspoken that a bow with horn and no sinew backing was a preposterous idea.
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Selfbowman, Was there any particular reason that you used osage to fill the voids in the horns, and not more horn?
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He like Osage Hamish :) :) :)Nice project Arvin , I can move this if you like to horn bows but I think it is alright here. :) Nice bows you been building by the way. ;)
Pappy
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Limbs ready for boo.
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Wrong pic.😳
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Hamish did have enough from just two horns. This is all I have left for overlays .
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Fair enough, looks pretty cool too.
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1st bamboo glue up.
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A good 1/8" thick bamboo?
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3/16 at point 1/4 at fades. Gets thicker with width
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One limb close glue the other up tonight.
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I think you got this Arvin. I like the design
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I've got Bamboo and I've got horn. Just waiting to see how this goes :D :D
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Side by side
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Top
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Mass theory?
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Can’t do this with whole bow but I weighed the two limbs and they weighed the same 8oz. Going to do the same with the cross bow limbs. Ok guys going technical here.😳ya Arvin technical! 😁 ok both crossbow limbs at this untillered stage weighs 18oz. 9oz each but remember I only have 19” limb including the 3-1/2” bolt on portion. Will revisit after tiller. Yes I used a caliber at about four inch intervals on limb width . I will check in thickness after tiller and maybe during. Arvin
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This is pretty cool! (-P
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Interesting stuff.
How are you going to attach the limbs to the 'riser'?
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Cool Arvin.The plan is coming together.I'm going to guess it'll be 50#'s @ 18".The mass theory is out the window with this project I'm afraid.
I've got a buddy who likes making FG take down bows.He experiments with all different types of angles on his risers.
After tillering the limbs even it could be that you make a few different risers for it that it will change the poundage.Just a thought.
Might not make much of a difference though.
This project could go on and on.Maybe add a little sinew.....Ha Ha.
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Limb caps
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Ed I am going for 140-170 # . The boo will determine. I think I am going to trace the limbs on the tiller tree and if set stars to show stop. Don’t know what weight that will be but another tiller learning experience . I think laminated horn might make it perform better but that’s another day.Arvin
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Top overlays tonight. Starting to come together on the limbs.
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Pic
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Sinew would make it perform better ;) haha
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How much thicker does it get where you intend to clamp the limbs to the riser? It doesn't look like there is much of a 'fade' to stop excessive bending occurring?
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Right now I can barely bend the limbs. The boo gets about 3/32” thicker and the horn a bit more. Won’t know for sure till I get into the tiller . should happen tomorrow. Arvin
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Nice work!
Here is something intresting too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY2untEwCnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY2untEwCnU)
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Hope it works ok. If it is a problem I would go with a tapered wedge inbetween the boo and horn. 3 piece glass bow stylee.
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Got the limbs temporary bolted on . Now I can tiller . Yesssss!!!!
Arvin
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So excited I put the wrong pic up.
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This is geti'n pretty cool!
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So excited I put the wrong pic up.
Good deal Arvin...I sure do hope it works for ya.Sounds like it's pretty stout.
The lower node is the only thing I worry about,but it should'nt do much if any bending there.
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Ed I never made a rope before! Long string 24 strand D97. Hope it’s enough. Pulled it from 10-1/2” to 14 1/2” 140# that won’t get it strung yet. Stout maybe.😁
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Pic . You will just have to trust me and the game winner on weight.
Arvin
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Seems like it might want to separate where those Osage pads intersect with the bamboo.
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Pat if you are talking about the Osage caps I never touched the nodes. Got the Osage as close as I could On the horn belly the rest filled with Smooth On. That 5/16 bolt is going to do its job. But where this thing could fail God knows cause I invited him. If he wants it to be it might be a miracle bow. Pat I don’t know I’m just having fun. Arvin
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Caps
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Fades
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First guess on tiller reduction . Trap . Scribe 1/4 on the belly . 1/8 on edge of horn. Well see if it will bend now.
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Catastrophic failure!!! 😩😁😁😁 is this what you where saying Pat?
I new that drawing sucked. Never can trust architects.😁
Arvin
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Pic
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Pretty sure Gods telling me to go to bed. Arvin
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I have one more piece of bamboo with matching nodes.
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Right, now before you glue that back together put the wedge in like I suggested before. :)
If you cut the other piece you should be able to insert a wedge.
Take a look at 3 piece takedowns. The wedge is there to stop this happening. There must be no to very,very little bending happening. Remember the end of the riser is acting like a pivot and is of course a stress riser....
I was fairly sure this would happen but didn't want to put the kybosh on things....
Personally I would scrap the boo add the wedges, covered with a thin lam of maple then sinew back. The sinew will allow a longer draw - everything in the crossbow world haha and of course if won't have tendency to split like the boo will if you look at it wrong.
Cool project and I hope you get a shooter out of it.
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Well that's that for the that attempt.Live and learn.I'll have to speak with my friend who builds those take down bows and have him peek in on this thread.
The limbs were plenty strong.
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Although I agree with everybody that there should be a wedge in the fade area, that looks like a mounting problem to me. It looks like the bolt was trying to pull though the Osage and split it and the Boo. I'm wondering if that would have happened if you had an aluminum cap instead of the Osage. I know that's not primitive but you get my drift.
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Something like that. I also thought the boo might flex right where it intersected with the Osage and separate.
It definitely looks like it needs more across the grain strength. I'd rather do a circular wrap of those parts and lash the limbs in place than drill and bolt.
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If I can’t give the pieces to someone to try sinew I will probably put bamboo on the broke limb and tone it down to say 80-100# bow. Forget about Charlie’s record. 😁I like Charlie anyhow. Arvin
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No takers on sinew. Limbs to narrow anyway. Redesigned! Sure to work this time.😁added more deflex. String nock and back of limb the same 2-3/4 off the bench.
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Glued up the other limb.
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New limb.
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Well it’s not going to be heavy but I’m liking it.
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Ok tillered 100# 15” from brace.
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Well I guess I will try my hand at blacksmithing.needs trigger mechanism installed and ten coats of true oil and see how she shoots. Anyone have a trigger mechanism?
Arvin
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They are quite easy to make. I suggest making a Chinese one.
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Super results Arvin.Gotta hand it to ya.Your persistent.
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A simple roller nut is likely the easiest and most practical to make. You could laminate one up from wood and horn stacked.
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Well impressed, wish I could work half as fast! There are 2 main types of all-wood trigger mechanisms, child's-play to make.
1. Push-pin, like the one I posted on the first page, a slot across the stock, a hole drilled through and a slot milled out underneath as the pin rides on a comb - make the pin square based and it won't drop out when you tip the bow upside down, (https://stuckinthemudsite.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/20200521_1204132938017420777954464.jpg)
2. lever-arm lifting the string put of a groove - this one is my test rig, very rough and ready but deals with laths over 100lb comfortably
(https://stuckinthemudsite.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/20200531_1546412296645650141556046.jpg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHWLnxp-2lU
This is what I mean. It has many advantages. Those Chinese chaps were pretty smart :)
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don't know how I let this gem slip by, what an awesome idea! can't wait to see her shootin!
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Ok release and trigger ready for install!
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can't wait!
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Trigger and release roughed in.
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Pic
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(-P
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I'm thinkin' that the spring is at the wrong angle.
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I'm thinkin' that the spring is at the wrong angle.
You recon! I ain’t no cabinetmaker. Wish I was in this case . Not real good at guessing angles either.
Arvin😁😁😁😁
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Strung
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213 FPS 100@15 .
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One more
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Outstanding.....Very nifty unique shooter.Far beyond my expectations.Congratulations!!Nice when a plan comes together.Like that steel ring also.
Exactly what was the cure for avoiding the splitting episode from earlier?
Might have to keep an eye on the center string serving durability for wear rubbing against wood on riser?
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Ed if you where to look close you would find the string does not ride on the stock. Also the bolt has a nock.as far as the failed limb I think DC was right. Not big enough washers. The crosses seam to fix that. Also my alinement pin might have been too long. Not sure what made the limb fail. Arvin
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Very cool!! how much does the bolt weigh? I like your chrono box. Shot one have we? ;D ;D If you'd made a little periscope you wouldn't need the hole in the front. ;)
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Ed if you where to look close you would find the string does not ride on the stock. Also the bolt has a nock.as far as the failed limb I think DC was right. Not big enough washers. The crosses seam to fix that. Also my alinement pin might have been too long. Not sure what made the limb fail. Arvin
I see.That's good.I could'nt see exactly where the string rode at the end of the release from your pictures.I could see the shaft was nocked though.
Makes sense for using larger washers or crosses as you say.
Should'nt have a problem getting enough bolts or shafts now as short as they have to be.All in all a nice success!
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DC the bolt weighs 450gr still have to put horn fledging on it though. Arvin
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Handle and safety
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Turn the horn for safety . Arvin
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GOOD feature!!!.A person does'nt want an accidental misfire.450 grain is enough to kill deer with.
Now what...Take it all apart and paint or brown metal parts?
A lot of testing involved here yet.Set of consistent shafts.Testing for consistency of accuracy etc. etc.
Almost like shooting a bow from a mounted shooting machine really.Should shoot them like darts.
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Back to whether boo horn is a good combo. With the short draw length and high draw weight I'm finding it hard to relate this to a boo horn bow. 215fps with a 450 grain bolt sounds good but how does it compare with a 100lb crossbow of other materials. Would a crossbow person be impressed?
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Golly DC and Ed so many Questions!! 😳 I will shoot it tomorrow if I get the two thin horn fletchings on the bolt .This is not the one I am sure of that. But it’s a starting place and I have a trigger-release in hand!!! It’s been fun and I will learn more about short bows and light arrows hopefully. . Arvin
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Hard to find 100lb crossbows,but I played with an RC 150 Barrnet back in the day which is a 150lb. cross bow, and no I never hunted with it. Just back yard fun shooting off hand at 20 to 40 yards, and playing with a chrony.. That bow shot 265 fps with a 325 gr bolt, and has wheels, so it seems like Arvin's numbers are pretty good for a first try.
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Yes it does, doesn't it! Very cool indeed.
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Very nice, looks really good, love it
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Ok weather permit. Will shoot this bolt in the morning.
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Pic
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Hard to find 100lb crossbows,but I played with an RC 150 Barrnet back in the day which is a 150lb. cross bow, and no I never hunted with it. Just back yard fun shooting off hand at 20 to 40 yards, and playing with a chrony.. That bow shot 265 fps with a 325 gr bolt, and has wheels, so it seems like Arvin's numbers are pretty good for a first try.
My modern crossbow with a similar bolt @150# does 315fps.
Crossbows are always going to be poor performers compared to a handbow as the drawlength is so short. Drawlength is king with crossbows. The longer the draw you can squeeze out the better they perform. Hence why the Chinese etc made theirs with horn/sinew prods and the trigger (like I showed) way back in the stock like a rifle. You want good performance with a crossbow you need to max out the drawlength and to do this the back and belly must be matched in properties.
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Bownara this has been a test. I agree with the draw length. I shot this morning . 😂The. bolt came out tumbled and went the big distance of 50yds. 😁😳😂 some tuning required!
Arvin
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You could try a bolt rest at the extreme front of the stock as a 1st step.
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I don't know about modern crossbows, or whether they use a nocked bolt/quarrel. All the older bows used a string with a fat serving and bolts with a flat end, no string nock. Maybe that might be easier to do.
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You could try a bolt rest at the extreme front of the stock as a 1st step.
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Hamish I am not hardcore primitive. I do like to mix old with new. But yes then there is wheels. Kinda like a garage band. Not great but having fun being there. Arvin
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The area the bolt rides along should be flat. I see you have a 'ramp' near the end? Most crossbows don't have nocks on the bolts. A flat nock or a halfmoon nock. The string should be pressing on the stock slightly all through the draw imo. This ensures the string always rides in the same place.
I can pull out one of my old ones and get some pics if you want? Made this way you can group 6 bolts touching at 30 yards.
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Umm I wonder if you need a more positive way to keep the alignment of string and bolt trajectory.. i have had good success with this method. It was pretty much universal on old crossbows, but I have zero experience with modern 'bows.(https://stuckinthemudsite.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/20200617_0819552775056005020362623.jpg)
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Arvin, All I can say is FANTASTIC CRAFTSMANSHIP!!! Truly enjoyed this build. John