Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Mad Max on December 20, 2020, 06:17:08 pm
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I think I want a spokeshave for tillering Osage with a arch belly like the back.
I don't want some cheep crap.
Any suggestions?
Should I use one or stick with a scraper?
Not as young as I use to be :)
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Spoke shave is a good tool but possibly a little bit aggressive for the fine tillering. One thing good about the spoke shave is that it requires very little physical effort. It will work fine for the finish tillering as long as you keep the setting for very light cuts.
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Mine is a $9.00 from Amazon. It had to be sharpened of course but I didn’t consider that an issue. It works great but I would be hesitant to use it for final tillering.
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Carefully! Like a mini drawknife, only more delicate, I think! Make sure it is honed and sharp, then be more careful! The real old timer type could make a glass like surface with one on a wheel spoke, hence the name. I ain't that good >:D >:D :fp (lol)!
Hawkdancer
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Every osage bow I've made has had a radiused belly and rounded sides. The faceted tillering and shaping method Torges described is a good way to get to a radiused belly, and when it comes time to round things over the rest of the way, there's not much left to remove and a scraper or Bowyer's Edge does it very quickly. Have you tried the Bowyer's Edge? It can be a good compromise between a spokeshave and scraper. Takes off nice, gauged, thin, long ribbons of wood.
I like the looks of the Boggs spokeshaves on Lie Nielsen site, but they're out of stock. Maybe they're discontinued, not sure.
Maybe check out Veritas spokeshaves at Lee Valley.
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I never liked a spoke shave for bow work and I have several configurations, a bowyers edge (if you can get sharpened properly ) works well.
I do my final tillering with a cheap orbital sander with 180 grit paper on it. This works two ways for me; one, I go slow and two it takes out all the washboard off the belly of the bow from earlier scraping, even up to the top of the fades.
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I use a spoke shave and a farrier rasp till I get to floor tiller. Once I start using tree I use a scraper and rasp. I would use a spoke shave tillering on the tree but have ruined too many bows doing that. I do use it to narrow my tips at the end as well.
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I wouldn’t recommend the cheapo one from amazon, I got and saved pretty much just the blade.
The main problem is that the mouth is to wide and can cause bad tear out.
If I did it again I would spend a couple more bucks and buy either a vintage one or a decent brand like kunz or one of the “good” Stanley clones.
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I have one I got from Harbor Freight years ago. It’s horrible to fiddle with but definitely useable and I have gotten very fine shavings from it. I still use it very often and it’s one of my favorite tools for bow making. One day I’ll get a nicer one and wonder why I didn’t sooner. A spokeshave can absolutely be used for final tillering if tuned for very fine shavings. I always recommend it as it’s less commonly used compared to a rasp/draw knife/cabinet scraper.
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I'll admit to being a noob boyer, but I've been working wood with mostly handtools since mid 70's. So I'll add this:
A low angle cutting tool (plane, spokeshave, drawknife used in conventional fashion) works great as long as very carefully adjusted and very sharp. Even then, when encountering knots or fiddleback, crotch, etc. where grain is opposite cutting direction, they will often tear out the wood or hang-up. Again, if VERY sharp and well tuned (it's not just blade depth but also throat adjustment/size, chip breaker, etc.), it'll work, but it's very easy to take a big chunk out.
A scraping tool is actually much like a miniature plane (at least a rolled edge scraper is) and they can be incredibly effective in removing long shavings from the gnarliest of woods. If they do 'dig' it's usually pretty minor and no real tear-out occurs. My almost 40yr old Sandvik scraper is still my go-to tool for fine wood removal. In instrument making I learned NEVER to use sandpaper, and all finishing was done with that scraper.
Relatively new to me, is using a drawknife by dragging back of blade as a scraper. In past I would never have 'abused' a cutting edge that way, but I'm currently finding it as the best option for tillering my first (Osage) bow :-)) That said, I'm finding that I always finish up with cabinet scraper.
The one downside of scrapers (excepting those held in plane-like handle) is that you can get waviness. Pretty much with all cutting tools, I learned to push the edge through the material at an angle (even planes). So there is some slicing action, and if there are ripples, I just change angle to span the ripples (rotate in opposite direction).
Anyway... just my humble attempt at contributing :P
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I guess I will stick with the scraper ;)
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I just walked in from shop where I am working on my first bow in Osage :-)) and one last thought occurred to me: One of the things I love about a scraper is that you can slightly bend the blade to make it either convex or concave, depending on how you hold it and whether you pull or push. I found myself pushing with my thumbs to hit little proud humps and then pulling it with a shallow concave edge, to give the back of bow a gentle curve.
Not sure ANY of that is good bowyering, but can't think of another tool that does it as well!
I also found myself contemplating my drawknife, bought at a farm sale decades ago. There is a definite curved indent midspan even tho it's started life as a straight-edged tool. Looks like it was used hard, and used on spokes, or other 'sticks' of some sort. I wish tools could talk...
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I never liked using a spoke shave except when I worked with yew and ERC. Granted I never really learned to adjust it properly. Like monoloco, I get a lot of the semi-course and fine work with a scraper. Actually when I started using a scraper more my bows got better. I guess it slowed me down enough so I don't outrun myself.
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I can only get a spoke shave to work on perfect wood and I don't get a lot of perfect wood.
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I agree with everything monoloco said. I finish with a scraper made from a section cut from a handsaw plate. I have two--one straight on one edge with teeth on the opposite end for fast wood removal and another scraper with a slightly concave edge.
Only place my vintage spokeshave gets used is for rounding edges. But, I only make pyramid designs.
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I reckon there more than one way to skin a cat! Or more than one way to take a bow to fine finish. I used my Buck 119 hunting knife for the heavy scraping and furniture set for finishing on the first bow.
Worked for me, at least on the hickory. Whatever works for you, do keep it sharp!
Hawkdancer
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Mad Max . A normal spokeshave with osage = lots of tear out. Much can be avoided by using a high angle spokeshave. The angle of the blade is around 60 deg( a regular spokeshave45 deg). The blade can be flipped over, bevel up and you can get an even higher angle scraper for really tricky grain.
The only company making these tools that I am aware of at the moment is HNT Gordon Planes. They are expensive, but very well made, and great quality. They are wedged like a wooden plane(no adjuster), but are very easy to set up.
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I am gonna go on record saying that the single most versatile tool in my box is the Veritas spokeshave from Lee Valley Tools. Not cheap, but you get a choice of tool steels (A2 and O1) for the blade and it comes viciously sharp. The body is of a higher grade cast iron steel, and does not shatter like the cheap versions from other sources. When properly sharpened, it rarely tears out grain unless you are in swirling grain around a knot.
The bed for the blade is machined dead flat, so the blade is fixed in place with only a little pressure. Cheapies like Stanley/etc are anything but flat and you need to crank it tight to keep the blade from slipping around. A well bedded blade also does not chatter as much.
Most people seem to put the blades in UPSIDE DOWN! Bevel down gives you a much sharper cutting angle and parts hard and soft woods much nicer.
I'll set my blade deep and use my forearms to keep the tool wedded to the stave to hog off thick shavings, but I can also fine tune it down to split cigarette papers three ways, too.
Like any tool, you have to learn how it operates and how to make best use of it. You cannot go at it like John Belushi, Samurai bowyer, in the throes of a cocaine fueled epileptic fit and expect decent results. Granted, it is a poor workman that blames the tool, but you notice they do not build high tech communications satellites with a selection of rocks and a bent screwdriver, either.
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JW I have the Veritas spokeshave as well. Its an excellent tool, but for really tough stuff like osage or tropical hardwoods, the HNT Gordon performs even better.
I haven't used a Veritas scraper shave yet, but it looks really good, like a Bowyers Edge tool. Once you get past a spokehave for general tillering, a scraper shave type tool is the best for fine tuning.
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Somebody slipped the "Bowyer's Edge Tool" into the conversation when I wasn't tuned in! What the heck is that? I know planes, draw knives, hatchets, scrapers, sandpaper, and hunting knives, but not a Bowyer Edge Tool! :BB (lol)! Btw, I am an elder fart - not old, just elder >:D (lol) (lol)!
Hawkdancer
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I'll admit to being a noob boyer, but I've been working wood with mostly handtools since mid 70's. So I'll add this:
A low angle cutting tool (plane, spokeshave, drawknife used in conventional fashion) works great as long as very carefully adjusted and very sharp. Even then, when encountering knots or fiddleback, crotch, etc. where grain is opposite cutting direction, they will often tear out the wood or hang-up. Again, if VERY sharp and well tuned (it's not just blade depth but also throat adjustment/size, chip breaker, etc.), it'll work, but it's very easy to take a big chunk out.
A scraping tool is actually much like a miniature plane (at least a rolled edge scraper is) and they can be incredibly effective in removing long shavings from the gnarliest of woods. If they do 'dig' it's usually pretty minor and no real tear-out occurs. My almost 40yr old Sandvik scraper is still my go-to tool for fine wood removal. In instrument making I learned NEVER to use sandpaper, and all finishing was done with that scraper.
Just so :)
What he said ^
Relatively new to me, is using a drawknife by dragging back of blade as a scraper. In past I would never have 'abused' a cutting edge that way, but I'm currently finding it as the best option for tillering my first (Osage) bow :-)) That said, I'm finding that I always finish up with cabinet scraper.
The one downside of scrapers (excepting those held in plane-like handle) is that you can get waviness. Pretty much with all cutting tools, I learned to push the edge through the material at an angle (even planes). So there is some slicing action, and if there are ripples, I just change angle to span the ripples (rotate in opposite direction).
Anyway... just my humble attempt at contributing :P
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Hawkdancer, The Bowyers Edge was a tool that the late great Dean Torges sold, first as a ready to go tool, then as a kit that you assembled and shaped. Its basically a wooden spokeshave body, with a brass sole/mouth, that hold a small scraper blade. Even though Dean is no longer with use, the B E is still advertised for sale on his website, so they could still be available, $65 +sh.
There used to be a bunch of guys that made something similar. There may still be something out there, but like many small companies they go bust, or stop advertising a particular tool when it doesn't get enough sales. The Veritas scraper shave looks to be the closest tool to a Bowyers Edge, if you can't grab an original.
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They're still selling the Bowyer's Edge and some other things on Dean's site, at least they were several months ago. I bought a new one because mine has seen it's better days. You don't have to assemble it. It comes assembled, always did I think. The handle is square though and you can shape it if you like, how you like. I left mine square all those years. Maybe I'll shape this new one.
By the way, I contacted Lie Nielsen about the Boggs spokeshave and they got back to me yesterday, said it isn't discontinued, just currently out of stock. Check back later. I believe it's similar to the Veritas. I may give them a month or so and try again, but I'm going to get one or the other soon.
I like good traditional style hand tools :OK
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Speaking of nice hand tools... check out the spokeshaves and hand planes at Scott Meek Woodworks (dot) com. I really like the osage spokeshave.
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Hamish,
Dean's website would be DeanTorges.com, or something similar?
Hawkdancer
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Hawk, bowyersedge.com tools and stock section.
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show us your home made spokeshaves, bow making planes or card holders. I would take a pic of mine, but it's sixty mile away. Just a saw cut in a piece of oak to hold a small card.
I need to experiment more with the angle to dress the edge with before rolling the hook. does most every one make it square to start?
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Willie, With a scraper shave type tool all the blades are beveled, not 90deg like a card scraper.
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a fairly steep bevel with no hook?
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I use 35 deg for most of my scraper shaves. No hook. I think the steel is harder than usual scraper steel,(A2 tool steel?) about 60 rockwell, so I don't roll a burr/hook. I haven't found it necessary.
The Bowyers Edge comes with an ingenious, but simple sharpening jig. Adjust the angle by a single screw, that rides on the sharpening stone. I must say it works really well. Dean really knew his stuff. The bevel angle is steeper maybe 50 deg, and the steel is like a regular scraper and you can roll a burr for a more aggressive cut.
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Hamish, we need a "thanks" button on this forum
:OK
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No thanks necessary Willie. Happy to pass it on.