Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tradslinger on March 01, 2021, 05:35:55 pm
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I still can't get my pics to take. something about an insecure site. So, my bendy bow is mostly tillered but there is something that bothers me. The upper limb at rest while strung, has a greater brace height as it shows more bend then. but when drawn, the upper appears more stiff than the lower. there is a certain amount of deception because of the character of the bow itself as it is not flat at all and has some deflex in the upper limb at the handle area. I had tried to correct this with heat but it did not take. so by the nature of the deflection in the first part of the upper limb, it already looks weak but is not. if I try to take out the stiffness of the upper limb according to the tiller, this will make the brace height of the upper limb even greater. should I do this anyway? the bow is not flat anywhere, kind of resembles some of the country roads around here LOL
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This would be no different for me to tiller than any other bow. It may look a little different afterwards, but the process is the same, and it will be balanced just the same. Pull it from where the string hand will be, and adjust limb strength if the hook drifts left or right. I could care less what the brace height is afterwards. Balanced is balanced.
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The only place proper (looking) tiller matters is at full draw.
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The only place proper (looking) tiller matters is at full draw.
I think the lad is asking what 'proper tiller' looks like :)
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He's asking a question that can't be responsibly answered the way he wants.
There's isn't a 'proper tiller'... at least not one that can be prescribed in advance and used as a beacon to effectively guide us on our way to a dynamically balanced bow. Most of the time predetermined tiller measurements don't create balanced bows when they have limbs identical in shape, let alone a bow with noticeably different shaped limbs. Tiller measurements should be an afterthought, a result of our efforts to balance and harmonize bow limbs... just a result.
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If it’s mostly tillered pull on it with an arrow or even put a few through it short drawing to where it’s tillered to. You’ll find out pretty quick how it feels and if it’s balanced by how it feels in your hand and how the arrow flys.
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A bow can be perfectly balanced and have terrible tiller though.
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That’s why to wait on character bows till you feel comfortable at tillering. If it’s all the dry wood you have I know your pain. We all had that problem in the beginning. The tiller gizmo will help as mush as anything. Those humpy bumpy bows are a pain. One more reason to use good wood . Just saying. And no sorry wood does not make a better bowyer. A good bowyer is better at picking better wood to make a better bow. Arvin
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Yes Pat, I agree. But the converse isn't true... a bow isn't perfectly tillered if it's terribly unbalanced/untimed.
I'll pass on the Gizmo for character bows, thanks.
If one learns to properly tiller(including dynamic balance) good character bows early on, not the doggy, fragile, novelty ones, it can help him learn to make all of his bows better. Making selfbows with only the straightest staves limits choices, experience, knowledge, and skills... and it gets kind of boring. Better bowyers do both well.
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I've never been bored by the cleanest and straightest wood possible and it opens up more choices and skills, not less.
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I would have to agree with pat (and i know im not super experienced). but i feel like character stave is tricky because its hard to tiller but its also difficult because it will restrict you to specific skills that you need to use to get a bow out of it, but skills that you might not be so great at without practice.
a straight stave might not make you use certain techniques and skills but it gives you more freedom to choose what you want to do and be creative with it.
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And yet here we are... on a tiller thread where one limb is shaped noticeably different than the other, and he needs better bowyers with more skills to tell him specifically how to tiller it. Don't nitpick me or or my tag line to avoid his direct question, answer the guy. You have the floor.
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We'd have to see pics and video.
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sorry. I wasn't trying to nitpick. just wanted to add my two cents to the conversation.
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Yes Pat, I agree. But the converse isn't true... a bow isn't perfectly tillered if it's terribly unbalanced/untimed.
I'll pass on the Gizmo for character bows, thanks.
If one learns to properly tiller(including dynamic balance) good character bows early on, not the doggy, fragile, novelty ones, it can help him learn to make all of his bows better. Making selfbows with only the straightest staves limits choices, experience, knowledge, and skills... and it gets kind of boring. Better bowyers do both well.
I can do both. There fore I know what makes a better bow . Speed and distance does not lie. Facts tell the truth . That simple . They won’t shoot as fast or have great cast if the limbs are not even and come to rest evenly. I have not seen a character bow yet that can compete. I ask you to show me one if not three that can compete. Built by the same guy. Or anybody. Mark Bagget has a humpy limbed bow that I built. It’s a good bow but not as good as it could have been if it was straight. I respect the tiller capabilities of the character bow makers . But that’s where it ends. Arvin
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I think it really depends on what you calling character,, or how much it has,,and thats pretty hard to measure,,
I made a straight tip bow a few months ago with what some might call characrter I posted on here,,,,,, it would shoot 175 fps,, with 10 gpp arrow it followed the string bout 1 inch, and I was suprised it shot so well,,,,,, it had what some would call character,, so maybe it could have shot better straight,,, I just make um the best I can,, I made an osage bow for JEffer one limb reflexed one not, it would shoot 180 fps with 10 grain per pound arrow,, but maybe thats not what you calling character,, just wanted to put in on the thread,,u can see that bow on utubed, jeffer shooting it,,
and certainly agree distance and speed do not lie,, I like to test my bows,, just to learn to make one better,, and I feel like someone with Jeffers bow,, with a better release than me,, would have made it shoot harder,, I hope,,
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Pull it from where the string hand will be, and adjust limb strength if the hook drifts left or right.
Left or right of what?
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A line drawn mimicking an arrow at full draw.
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My bow I just made, the upper limb looks a little stiff at full draw but the bow balances perfectly when drawn.
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If they don’t have shock they are balanced. If they have shock they aren’t. That’s s it . But you have to have shot one without to know the difference.
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Willie, I have a vertical line drawn on the wall that mimics my string hand fulcrum traveling perpendicular away from the handle. If the limbs aren't balanced in strength relative to that, the stronger acting limb will pull the hook to its side of the line. When it does, it gets weakened until the hook follows the line. That's it in a tiny nutshell. No shock. No bow tilt in the hand. No arrow porpoising. No tiller change. No moving nock points around to attempt to correct anything. Works the same for bows with identical limbs as it does for bows with limbs like the o.p. mentioned.
Arvin, I never said character bows did or didn't shoot faster or father.
So you guys are going to continue to avoid his original question? I'd like to know too. How would you instruct him to balance this bow's dissimilar shaped limbs' strengths? The top limb appears weaker at brace but is acting stronger as it's drawn. Should he weaken it 'further'? How much? Until it doesn't have hand shock? Yeah, ok. For those who gauge limb strength according to brace height measurements, what should they measure on THIS bow to ensure limb harmony at full draw?
While we continue to wait, I'll answer him. I ain't skeered. Lol. My answer is Yes. If in fact the top limb is acting stronger when drawn, I'd see it right away on my tree as described above, and I wouldn't hesitate to weaken it, even though it already looks weak at brace due to its natural irregularity. I'd balance the strength of this bow's limbs, starting at the beginning of the tillering process, in the same direct, gauged, straightforward process I do all of them, and it wouldn't be a bit more difficult or confusing.
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Correct. Without seeing the bow I would not be sure if things were as stated.
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if the top limb was acting stronger,, I would weaken it even if it appeared weaker at brace, I wasnt avoiding sorry I just wasnt paying attention,, I like the limbs bending as even as I can at full draw,, I shoot well enough to tell if the arrow is flying good,and made bows for people that shoot really well and know what that looks like,,, I reaally expect what I call perfect arrow flight,,, I will say that on shorter bows,, to get the arrow to fly like I like, the way I hold the bow, some positive tiller works for me,, some dont agree,, maybe my form is flawed but that works for me,,bows that are less than 50 inches,,I pretty much agree with what DWS says, I just get there with out as much measuring,, on the tree,, I mainly do final tiller shooting,, but see his method would be very effective,,
I dont really care if each limb is different,, thats how I learned on osage,, I just balance them to shoot well,,ok I gonna brag just a bit,, ok,,,, you have to be able so shoot well,, to see that,, :)
ok maybe I just imagine this,, but I feel like shooting the bow has a different effect on the wood than just pulling it on a tree, I have no proof, but feel like the bow stabilized better for me when I shoot it through out the process of tillereing,, like I said this is just something I have a feeling about,, and might not be right at all,,
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I have a vertical line drawn on the wall that mimics my string hand fulcrum traveling perpendicular away from the handle.
So with this method, the handle is clamped to stay square with the line on the wall?
the stronger acting limb will pull the hook to its side of the line.
is the hook nocked to the string such that it cannot slide on the string?
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Willie, no, I don't use anything to keep the hook from sliding. I haven't had that problem. No, the bow's not clamped, just sitting there, but yes, the handle should be square with the line on the wall. When I use it the way I described, the handle is supported near the ends but just resting on the tree. My preferred handle shape is not likely to tip on my tree unless relative limb balance is off really bad. It has happened a few times though because I start this very early, with a long string, when some folks are still floor tillering, but if it does tip, that immediately tells me which limb is too strong and I correct it before I go further. But yes it could be clamped, and/or shimmed so the handle area remains level, and it wouldn't change anything in regard to what the hook travel tells us. The hook will drift toward the stronger acting limb.
With it held this way and drawn from where the archer will pull the string, once the limbs are balanced so that the hook perfectly follows the line, it's balanced well for most bow hand holds. It just doesn't reveal where the dynamic balance point is under the hand. So I have an insert to place in the tree cradle that acts as a single pivot point, allowing the bow to pivot freely, and this pivot is able to be moved anywhere within the handle to find exactly where it balances as it's drawn, and limb strength adjustments can be made to fine tune balance and the balance point location.
That movable pivot point is just a short piece of a big halfround double cut file I cut off the end. The teeth keep it from moving on the tree and a piece of thin leather over it keeps it from marking a bow that's nearly finished.
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Well put DWS. I did not use a tiller tree for 10 years. I would floor tiller and brace hang the string from a peg over the shop door and pull it and observe the bend and correct the limb from there. I now use a tillering tree. Cause it’s more accurate. And yes my tree is set up just like yours. A pic will follow with the center line draw straight down with draw length measurements on it. And yes the scale hook does move to the strong limb side. I just noticed it one day while tillering a bow. Back the the question at hand . You just have to imagine the wave in the limb thickness thru the arc of the bending limb and think of a imaginary line thru the middle of it. Arvin
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Another pic
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Looks good Arvin.
I don't pull on the centerline though, unless that's where someone's fulcrum is due to a fixed crawl or whatever. I pull where the center of pressure of the string hand is, which for me is about 2/3 of the way down my middle finger. I set all nock points 3/8" above the shelf, so I measured down from there, accounting for the width of the arrow nock, my finger fulcrum, and that's where I drew the line... for me shooting split finger. But I have multiple, movable pulleys on a shaft down below for the pull rope, so I can quickly switch between split finger, 3 under, top limb facing left or right, etc.
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Tradslinger, have you turned the bow around to look at the tiller from the other side?
Jawge
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Here's a picture of mine, without the pivot insert. I do the bulk of my tillering with this.
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Here's the insert pieces to allow it to pivot.
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Dropped in place.
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A test bow I was playing with, on the pivot and pulled from my string hand location. I didn't make any adjustments to move the pivot point over or anything, I just stuck the pivot under it where it would balance it, but these are just some pictures I have on my phone that sort of shows what I'm talking about.
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Sorry about the blurry pictures. I had already resized them 25% of original, but this site said they had to be even smaller to post them.
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Yes you have to align the bow on top of the block every time you make a correction and pull th string form the same place each time. I nock 1/4-5/16 above shelf plus the thickness. Of the nock.
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I thought that I had posted something earlier on this post but it isn't here now. I went ahead and scraped the upper limb to make it more balanced at full draw. I know that it is an optical illusion due to the downward deflex at the handle of the upper limb. I would have answered this sooner but was out of town yesterday to see the cornea specialist that did my transplant back in Nov.
I will try again later to get pics loaded. thanks all, Jerry
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;D ;D Boy has he missed out! 🧐And I come back to this???
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Pics
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thanks to James, I have this pic of my last tillering. it needs a little bit more on the right side, the last 1/3 of the limb.
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if you look closely, the limb immediately out from the handle on the right side is kicked downward, thus making it look worse than it is.
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It looks like there’s a large limb length discrepancy also, is that correct?
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No, the bow's not clamped, just sitting there, but yes, the handle should be square with the line on the wall. When I use it the way I described, the handle is supported near the ends but just resting on the tree.
With it held this way and drawn from where the archer will pull the string, once the limbs are balanced so that the hook perfectly follows the line, it's balanced well for most bow hand holds.
This setup works until you get tillered out to about how many inches?
the top end of the line on the wall is offset from the handle center to your estimated bow hand pressurepoint? and the bottom of the line is directly over the pulley?
It just doesn't reveal where the dynamic balance point is under the hand. So I have an insert to place in the tree cradle that acts as a single pivot point, allowing the bow to pivot freely, and this pivot is able to be moved anywhere within the handle to find exactly where it balances as it's drawn, and limb strength adjustments can be made to fine tune balance and the balance point location.
When fine tuning the balance, the single pivot is placed at the best estimate of the bow hand pressure point? and the bow is free to rock. I take it that you would not expect to see the hook deviate from a line drawn from that pivot point to the center of the pulley, so you must be looking for the limbs tipping as you draw?
Please excuse the detailed questions. I am not being picky, I just want to understand your method better. I must confess that I have read your past explanations without really truly grasping your method, and as I am not the sharpest tack in the box, I appreciate this detailed explanation (and many of the explanations you have made in the past.)
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It looks like there’s a large limb length discrepancy also, is that correct?
yes sir, you are quite right. I was tired and used the wrong faint line to place the rest and the handle. I will have to reposition everything. blind in one eye and tired, a bad combination. embarrassing as heck.
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That's fine - before you know it, everyone will be copying your "semi-Yumi" style!
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I think that’s why the English long bow came to be. Adjust hand placement to achieve tiller. When the King wanted 500 bows in a month what else do you do.
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willie, DWS whole point is that he places the bow where he'll hold it and pull it and doesn't waver from that from beginning to end.
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well Said Pat,,
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Willie, you asked... "This setup works until you get tillered out to about how many inches?"
It can, and should be used the whole way to full draw. Some bows are able to come to the line sooner in the draw than others depending on their center location, and where they're drawn from on the string... such as... generally, asymmetrical bows sooner than symmetrical, and 3 under sooner than split, but it depends, so much is relative.. but once they're there, it's pretty easy to keep them there throughout the rest of the draw with minor adjustments if the hook starts to drift.
"The top end of the line on the wall is offset from the handle center to your estimated bow hand pressure point?"
It's offset from the handle center, yes. But no, not to the bow hand pressure point. Rather, the entire line, top to bottom, is the string hand fulcrum point's 'proposed perfect travel route', i.e. its path when neither limb overpowers the other, allowing it to come straight back to anchor(straight down the tree), perfectly square/perpendicular to the handle area.
To find the line location... Decide what nock point height you want, I set mine so the arrow's 1/4" nock is 1/8" above perpendicular to the shelf(so 3/8" from shelf location to bottom of nock point). Then just measure down the string/across the wall from the bottom of the nock point, the thickness of your arrow nock, plus the distance to fulcrum point of string hand. Take your time to get this as accurate as possible. Mark it on the wall under the handle support and draw a plumb line down the wall with a level. Set your lower pulley near the floor on the line.
"When fine tuning the balance, the single pivot is placed at the best estimate of the bow hand pressure point?"
When I switch to the pivot, I usually start off by placing it where it wants to balance early in the draw just to see where that is exactly... to see what I'm up against. Then move the pivot to where I would like the balance point at full draw. Many bows, some more than others, will have a bow hand pressure point that migrates during the draw, especially the early draw. This is the 'sliding fulcrum' Dean Torges mentioned is his article 'Tillering the Organic Bow'. But regardless of whether it migrates a little, a lot, or not at all... the goal is to have the limb strengths balanced at anchor, relative to the archer's holds. I'd say if I'm estimating something, it's where I think the dynamic fulcrum in my bow hand should be at full draw, because hands are complex fleshy things. lol. But after all these years, I have a pretty good 'handle' on where mine is ;)
"I take it that you would not expect to see the hook deviate from a line drawn from that pivot point to the center of the pulley, so you must be looking for the limbs tipping as you draw?"
It can and will deviate from the line various amounts depending on some factors already mentioned, but it is free to tilt as you noted. So as more pressure is applied during the draw, the hook will tend to be moved toward the pulley, and so also toward the line, BUT if the bow is unbalanced, it will still reveal it in the handle leaning, and in how the limbs are leaning and flexing.
"Please excuse the detailed questions. I am not being picky, I just want to understand your method better. I must confess that I have read your past explanations without really truly grasping your method, and as I am not the sharpest tack in the box, I appreciate this detailed explanation (and many of the explanations you have made in the past.)"
No problem whatsoever. I would rather have detailed questions such as yours. This is the kind of stuff we 'should' be picky about, imo. I know it's what I'm picky about(ok, ONE of the things) because it does help me make better bows. I appreciate you asking insightful questions.
I apologize to Tradslinger if this derailed his thread.
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Pic
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this is what it looks like now. this is right at the minimum legal bow weight of 35# for deer hunting in Ark
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Draw weight laws always crack me up because only a politician would think there is only one draw weight for a bow (especially a bow without training wheels).
The draw weight depends on the draw length, and that should be acknowledged somehow in something a serious as law.