Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Piddler on March 27, 2021, 07:32:10 pm
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Guys quick question. Is there a best time for belly splits using wedges etc not the saw. Such as when fresh cut or after 2 or 3 months or after a year or ???
Thanks
Piddler
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Easier to split when green.
Belly splits are very temperamental at any time though. Practice on your worst quarters first.
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No doubt, when its green.
HH~
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Belly splits are always tempting, sometimes easy - other times wow, that didn't turn out like I thought it would.
Although each of us has their own way of doing things, mine is to use my eastwing hatchet and two pound hammer to start the split and then switch to a 'froe' and hammer. It's a slow go and it's a good idea to have a helper keeping an eye on things as well. Be ready to call it quits if the split starts to go awry. Better to keep a good one than to have two mediocre ones. YMMV
Regarding timing of the split, generally I do it when they are recently cut but have on occasion did a split on a thoroughly seasoned one. Can't say which is better.
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Thanks Fellas
Piddler
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+1 with Giff. I use a froe too. Technically you can steer the split with a froe. That might work well with straight grained oak, for chairmaking, but not always good with gnarley osage.
I even resort to using cold chisels to tap away on the growth rings on the end grain, to start the split, then keep working down the growth ring on both sides as the split continues. Very slow but it does increase success(not always though).
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Hamish been thinking about trying the same on the sides. Gonna have to get a froe I guess. Been thinking about cutting into the side on the growth ring with a die grinder and cut off wheel just to weaken that point a bit.
Piddler
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I have never seen much difference, green or dry, I usually use and slim ax and just work down the sides after I pick the ring I want, most times it will split right down the ring or close unless it has a knot of something weird going on inside as Osage tends to have. ??? One thing is for sure you have to decide if it is worth the risk, most times it works but sometimes it don't and you have to be willing to except that fact. :)
Pappy
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Re: froes I saw some old one's with a curved blades, of different radius's that follow the growth ring on the end grain, instead of being straight. Match the tools radius to the growth, and you get a consistent depth for the top spilts, and a clean spilt along the growth rings on the belly split.
Maybe one day I will get around to having a go making one like that from spring steel.
One of the things I don't like about many modern froes is the handle and how it joins.They tend to be round, with no taper to mechanically lock the handle in and stop it from slipping or rotating, just a bit of pipe welded to the blade. I think a square or rectangular socket, with a taper as well would be better.
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I have one roughed out from very old spring steel, with the end socket to take the handle. One question is how much bevel to grind in, and whether to heat treat it? I think I still have the other end of the spring as well.
Hawkdancer
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Yep,
Pappy done a couple and i think there is at least 50 belly splits we did after this last cutting. Once he gets that ring loose with hatchet it usually takes that split on cleaner stuff. Small ring and knotty Hedge its a crap shoot and thats green. It’ll pop good dry too dont get me wrong. I think it just does string as bad green.
HH~
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You can drill holes along your intend split line to make it travel where you want.
Wood splits best green. Certainly with less effort anyway. Ask anyone who splits lot of firewood by with an axe :)
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when splitting staves . I've found very dry splits the easiest.. as for belly splits.. probably green then but I don't know I haven't belly split mine ... gut
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I just did 3 belly splits, dry wood, split way easier than when green.
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Hawky , I would heat treat it, oil quench. Temper to brown/purple.
I would make the bevel pretty fat, nothing like a knife edge. I have 2 froes. 1/2" thick spine, which starts to taper, then a secondary bevel for about 3/4" from the edge. Angle is 45 degrees at the secondary bevel. I think that's a bit steep, makes it harder to start the split in dry wood.
The second froe is about 1/4" thick, straight bar, 3/4" wide bevel away from the edge. Its 40 degrees. Lie Neilsen makes another froe, they say their model has a 30 degree bevel, which sounds a bit too acute to be robust. I haven't used one so I can't be sure.
The bevel on both of my froes is convex, like an apple seed.
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Hamish,
Do you prefer the 1/4" or the 1/2" other than the 1/2" being harder to start a split.
Piddler
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I haven't even used the 1/4" one yet, I dug it out yesterday to check the bevel angle. It was still in its original cardboard sheath. The 1/2" one is a brute of a tool, quite roughly made. Hard to start the split, especially in dry wood, and awkward to use because of how thick it is.
I suspect the 1/4" froe will be much easier to start a split, and more maneuverable during the split. Its German made and heat treated.
Although I have never used a Lie Nielsen froe, it gets a pretty good review from green woodworkers. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2012/07/19/the-new-lie-nielsen-froe-designed-by-drew-langsner/
They do however select dead straight oak, split radially, usually in billet length sections, rather than character laden osage, of full stave length.
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I have used a mattock to do belly splits, I start the split with screwdrivers driven around the selected end grain, open it up enough to get a wood wedge or two started, insert the flat mattock blade and use the handle for leverage.
Most of the time I just use steel wedges if the wood splits cleanly and easily. When I cut billet splices I save the pie shapes pieces to use for splitting later.
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Here's a billet, one large one 40" long. Was belly split after a year. So it was dry not seasoned. I would have prefered it to grab one ring and stayed in it but it jumped half a Big ring being dry. If it were green I could have popped it right down one ring.
Some folks gonna see this one real soon.
HH~
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Here's a videothat shows how to use a steer a froe, what to do if the split goes awry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGhSyUD64dQ&t=667s
Froe work is between 5min in to about 12mins. He's splitting straight grained ash, for basket weaving. Peter Follansbee is a seriously skilled green woodworker.
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Thanks fellas,
He for sure knows what he is doing in the video. Gonna have to get a froe and try some day. Until then gonna try and kerf one down the growth ring with my cut off saw and see what happens. These staves are just shy of a year old. I have a couple that probably have three bows in them if done correctly. Gonna try a not so good one first but without a knot. Tried one with a knot and it didn't work out at all. Here's to trying.
Piddler
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Here is a froe that was made from a car leaf spring that I restored. I haven't used it on osage, my osage cutting days are over so it is now a shop wall ornament.
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Belly split step sistah’s Glued up.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,68906.135.html
HH~
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HH and Eric,
Dou you guys have the pattern or measurements (L and W) for the splice. Got a couple billets that I will have to do that with one day
Piddler
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I like my billets about 38" to start and width be same as any selfbow stave. The thicker in depth gives you room to grab the ring you want. I been doing 3" splice lately and I like to back the splice with a grip. You dont have to do this if the splits are thick in depth. I just do it because it gives and added glue line on the belly side of finger joint.
I like making billets bows almost better than a one piece. Just easier to find cleaner wood in shorter lengths. Not to say a good clean 70" chunk is not great but two 35" pieces or one fat one at 35" belly split for two is just as good maybe better.
Hedge~
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Hedge, do you ever glue them up with set-back in the handle?
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If they are deep enough.
That set in pics here and in Huntin with Hedge, that billet length fat piece had a curve up on one side, I just butted the two more flat ends together glued and ended up with a flipped tip 69" stave. Now, they are step sister billets ( they come from on top of each other) not sister billets that come off tree side by side in same year growths. These were pancaked on top of each other and "Belly Split". So, each side has same blemishes and one small pin in same exact places on each limb. Bookends so to speak.
HH~
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HH thanks for info on the 3" splice length. How wide are they at the top or widest part. Looks like you have two V's in the photo.
Piddler
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I use Gary Davis templete's. You can do splices many ways. All will hold if you use *good glue*. Glues are all different. Know what your using and how wood must be prepped. There are books on how to draw out joints and splice in wood working. The splice just has fit the size of material your using. If you not backing it you must have enough wood in grip area to make a solid joint. Gary use to take his two billets down almost to bow size before he jointed them. I like to pare bilet down a little and then glue up. Anyway that works is OK. Never had a billet bow go in a joint, ever. They more likely stonger in grip thatn a sold stave handle.
HH~
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these splits lookin like a stave now. I remember Gary telling me lots of his "bows were billets, buyers never even could see they were billets. He did not prefer staves over billets at all and he liked doing them". I really like doing them gives more time with the Hedge.
HH~
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Thanks HH and those billets are looking good
Piddler