Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RyanY on May 09, 2021, 08:46:14 pm
-
Driving back from the classic, sleep deprived and hypnotized by the road, I was contemplating future bows to be made. Thinking to myself, what would be a more interesting shape for a paddle bow, I see a raptor fly over head. I get a crazy idea, "what if I made a bow limb in the shape of a wing?" Could it work? Thinking to my limited bow wood supply I recalled a piece of ash I had not used for backing strips due to the curving of the grain that could be a perfect fit. Over the last few days I got started on what will hopefully become a bow with limbs shaped like wings!
Please let me know if you think it'll work, won't work, how poorly it'll perform, what problems I'll face, and if you think I'm downright crazy. ;D
I started by planing the ash to make sure the grain was straight and luckily it was. I was also surprised to see some beautiful fine figure which will hopefully not cause any issues. I then drew out the shape on paper that I taped to the board. I drew out the handle and centerline of the limb and approximated the shape of a wing. Osprey seem to have some cool looking wings and a google search resulted in lots of inspiration. I started out with a bow 66" ntn but felt the proportions of the limb were a bit too stretched out.
-
Decided to shorten it to 62" ntn. The widest portions of the limb are around 3" wide but with the "feathers" carved in it'll be a bit narrower. I am considering the working portions of the limb to be at the narrowest spots. The handle is 4" long with 3" "fades" that will widen to the wider portion of the limb. I cut out the template and draw the profile onto the board.
-
Cut it out on the bandsaw. No going back now! :o Got a bit worried because this ash felt a bit light for some reason. Did I mention this is my first time working ash? After looking through some maple boards at the big box store for a different project the ash felt a bit heavier. This board was acquired from a saw mill, rough sawn, so it is a bit over 1" thick which is great.
I use a spoke shave for bring the profile to the line.
-
With the spokeshave I use it at an angle to get to the line on the face of the board. I then flatten it out a bit on that side and then do the same to the other side creating a crown/ridge that can be removed more easily than taking full passes on the flat edge. For the spots I can't reach with the spokeshave I use my very handy drum sander.
-
I draw some lines for thickness along the edge. Starting about 1/2" at the end of the fade tapering to 7/16" around mid limb till 3/4 of the way from the fade and then back to 1/2" at the tip. I knew from other bows that this would be a good starting thickness. I increased the thickness toward the tip as I will be adding some reflex at the tips for the wing effect.
I cut the limb thickness on the band saw making sure to angle the board so that the blade doesn't wander into the belly. Initial floor tiller right off the band saw looks okay. Bending a bit more in the inner limb than I like to start.
-
I sharpen up my spokeshave as I'll be going for a flat belly which is difficult to achieve with a flat bottom spokeshave. I remove wood to the lines I drew initially. The draw knife helps near the handle and fade area.
Floor tiller looked good so I put it on the tree. First bend pictured. Got it bending to 23" pulling about 35# with a bit more wood removal.
-
A wing shaped bow needs to have a gullwing profile right? I was told those are the rules. Used a trash bag to trap the steam and put a 1.5" block under the handle hoping it would spring back a bit for some very mild handle reflex. Poke a small hole in the bag to drain the water that accumulates. That's it for today. Hopefully will get a bit further this week. Next I'll reflex the tips.
-
You're crazy alright, may be crazy enough to work. :o
Go easy, the figure in the ash may fret. The untold story with boards is that wrinkled grain that doesn't splinter on the back may well crumble on the belly. As for the design, remember the bowyers' rules of thumb.
-
That is just plain crazy....but nothing wrong with a bit of crazy :)
-
this indeed is a fun project - thanx for sharing - that shape of the limbs certainly will not really help the function but it will be eyecatcher for sure. ;) those ash-backings certainly tolerate some grain runoff and if you keep poundage a little lower there won't be problems anyway. If you look at the posts of b2w you will find a backed bow where he cut the backing similarly along the grain... :OK
-
(-P
-
+1 (-P
Del
-
(-P.....I like the train of thought Ryan.Many indigenus cultures looked to mother nature for guidance.Very good pictorial steps shown.
I like your work shop tools there too.A drum sander to own has been something I've thought about for a long long time.
PS.....Were'nt you the one who showed a very wide bendy handled 50# pine bow from a board long ago?
-
Neat idea. Wonder if scalloped bows evolved from such thought processes. Only problem I see such a design will only work to bow fish with (lol) ::)
Good luck on it
Mike
-
Me thanks you do need more sleep :P
(-P
-
i'm watching with wonder!
-
Yep...that will be a crazy ash bow.
-
Thanks All. I am certainly worried about the integrity of the curly grain. It seems somewhat fine so I'm hoping I can get away with it. I was considering a concave belly cross section but with the grain being the way that it is I will stick with a flat belly. I have had some success with very wide flat bows in the past so hopefully this will be the same. I will be going for a light poundage, around 35#@27-28" if I can manage. I am hoping to get the handle working just a hair or at least working into the fades somewhat.
Mike, Scalloped bows were definitely in mind when considering this design. Maybe I should have started there. I am a bit worried about the integrity of the "feathers" sticking out from the limb. I want to make them thin enough to not be massive but not so thin that they break off.
Mark, I certainly do need more sleep. Took me a few days to recover from the classic. I think your mulberry stave will become another paddle bow as well!
Ed, if it was the poplar bow that Blackhawk challenged me to build that was 60% working limb and 40% lever then yes. ;D
-
Oh, hawk yeah!!!
BTW, nice photo of an osprey. Note how the smallest toe on the outside of the feet swivels around to work like a second halux, or thumb. It's the only diurnal raptor that does this. It is a feature shared with owls and parrots.
-
I think it’s good to try some irregular ideas. It’s supposed to be fun!
-
Very unique, I appluad your creativity. I’m rooting for you.
-
Got the reflex at the handle and tips put in. Reflex starts about is about 8” from the tip and at the center of the handle. Total reflex is about 3” behind the handle so a bit more than I wanted for overall stress but I am hoping some will come out if I get the handle working just a bit.
-
Is that humidifier hot enough to give steam? mine just gives off vapor, not nearly 212 f.
-
It’s surprisingly hot. I was watching it today and there were small bubbles that looked like they were boiling off the surface of the wood. Only took about 10min of heating to bend these spots that are about 7/16-1/2” thick.
-
Is that humidifier hot enough to give steam? mine just gives off vapor, not nearly 212 f.
That’s a steamer not a humidifier. Used to steam clothing. Gets hot! 😁
-
Your the man Ryan, if anyone can pull that off you can, ;) watching and waiting. :-\
Pappy
-
Thanks Pappy!
I started getting the bow bending trying to get the bend I want before doing other modifications. Initially drawing about 33lbs at 20". Pictured is my setup for wide flat bellied bows. Sharp spokeshave, paste wax, and scraper. I mark the limb heavily where I want to remove wood and then take a pass with the spokeshave. Every few passes I wipe on some wax to keep it smooth. I use the scraper after to get out any tool marks left by the spokeshave. One pass like this on this limb section lowered draw weight by about 1lb at the same draw length.
-
Scraper wasn't sharp enough so I put a new edge on it. I draw file the edge and just use a screwdriver as a burnisher. With this figured wood, it still wants to tear out in spite of having a very sharp spokeshave so it needs a decent amount of scraping. The figure wants to catch the scraper similar to the early wood in porous woods like oak or osage. Using it at an angle helps keep from getting a washboard effect on the belly.
-
A few more passes with the spokeshave and the tiller is close to where I want it. The pictures don't look as different as it did standing in front of it. ::) Pulling 31lb at 20" before the next step.
-
A wing shaped bow needs a wing shaped cross section right? Again, I was told these are the rules. ;D I mark out some lines where I will remove a "chamfer" to start approximating an airfoil like shape similar to a wing. I filled in a section to show what wood will be removed.
-
The trailing edge of the wing will have a concave back along that chamfer. I use pencil to help see where I will be removing wood and a centerline between the edge and the previous chamfer line.
I use a gooseneck scraper to create the concave effect. I was surprised how much wood it removed. This was a good experience to help me consider doing a hollow limb design at some point.
Last pic is the roughed out chamfers.
-
I then use a scraper to round out the last few edges on the back and then go over it with 80 grit sandpaper.
As expected, I lost quite a bit of draw weight doing this. Currently pulling 33#@28". The design doesn't seem as stressed as I was expecting. Next I'll heat treat it a bit to try and get a few more pounds out of it. Tiller looks a bit better with the left side being a bit stiff to my eyes.
-
Nice
(-P
-
See is looking pretty cool :)
To get the very sharpest and longest lasting burr on your scrapers make sure the face of your scraper is polished like a mirror before trying to raise the burr :) Makes a big difference
-
If this doesn't work you could make another with the opposite orientation, cut them in half, splice them together, and put the result on the front of a piper cub. :D
-
I see your crazy plan and raise you one wacky. (or whatever that phrase is)
-
With the setback in the handle and the recurving at the tips, you have a profile that is known as "dihedral". This dihedral wing shape is common on soaring birds such as raptors, particularly in vultures and condors.
You are really taking the inspiration of natural dynamics into this bow, Brother Ryan.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Rdngsiq2RL3sS9mf6
-
Bownarra, I'll have to keep that in mind. I find of the 4 edges I usually get one good one, 2 okay, and 1 that doesn't do much. :fp
TCM, It's amazing how much these are starting to look like wings. Maybe I'll add a body/fuselage and see if it'll glide! (lol)
John, Definitely going to see how far I can push it to a degree. Always appreciate your extensive bird knowledge!
Got the heat treating done today. Heated the tips, handle, and limbs separately. This bow is relatively thin so I made some modifications to my setup. Usually I hold the heat gun 4" away from the belly and go pretty dark. For this one I'll go 3" and go for a lighter color. I couldn't use my normal jig due to the width of the limbs so I had to hold the heat gun. Helps to have some youtube videos to watch on the tablet.
-
Added just a hair of reflex to the limbs as I feel it helps more with the heat treating process than no reflex at all. I know before I said 3" seemed like more reflex than I wanted...... Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.
-
Next I'll start finalizing the shape of the profile. Because of the design, I'll be putting in a lot of work into this bow before it's technically tillered out after heat treating. Not ideal but part of the challenge. I taper the tips closer to my desired 3/8" width. Next, I shape the handle to it's final width. I'll then start shaping the handle along with some chamfers along the belly to help complete the 'airfoil' limb cross section.
-
I want to mention that I have crowned the back of several board bows. This is primarily for aesthetics. Theoretically I think it operates similarly to trapping and could help in compression. This would be good for this bow considering the curly grain. I also wonder if adding a crown may help get away with some level of grain runoff due to the curved surface as it seems many breaks along the grain must start at the edge where it runs out of the limb. This would help the edges experience less tension.
The chamfers on the belly will certainly concentrate the compression strain to a degree but this bow is built more for aesthetics than performance. I will consider it a failure if I get compression fractures though. Still needs to be a bow!
-
Finished the 'airfoil' limb profile. Certainly not the shape needed for lift but something that would feel interesting and help thin out the trailing edge. It's hard to take a picture of the actual limb so I drew a quick sketch of the steps I took to get the shape. Now it's time to draw the "feathers" on the limb and start cutting them out. In retrospect I should have waited to round the trailing edge so it would be easier to draw on the limb but no biggie. I'll start by roughing them in and then will get the bow bending before spending all that time shaping and sanding them. Till now the bow has not been braced due to the limb being too wide near the tip for my tillering string. Feels pretty stout still with floor tillering so hopefully I'll have some room to get the bend the way I want it to. Fingers crossed!
-
Interesting, Ryan. Looking forward to the end results. :OK
-
Very cool build! Thanks for the detailed description of your build and the step-by-step photos. If it can be done your the guy to do it. Good luck
-
Interesting, Ryan. Looking forward to the end results. :OK
Yep
-
I hope you have the eagles in your play list, karma and all that!!
-
(-P
-
Finished the 'airfoil' limb profile. Certainly not the shape needed for lift but something that would feel interesting and help thin out the trailing edge.
That's quite close to a number of plank airfoil profiles (particularly some of the older versions pre computer days) e.g.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MCsukrivoxJVZuFpj_P7jy9Smen-dtLJjGVPRM9tMjdTxPKZDf6FMCXGvTnropAgHO0aPJgXeSMPN3Gu8wMxen4IsgWBNvZ8wDsfoQ)
You've inspired me to get my ash flat bow out that's been sitting in the corner for a while now :-[
-
This is awesome! look forward to seeing the end result.
-
Nice build so far, follow the progress
-
Flyonline, That's interesting! Can't say I know much about wing design but it's cool to know that it has some resemblance!
Thanks for following everyone! Got a little more work in on the bow. After drawing out the feather shapes I started with the short ones. I use a round hacksaw blade to cut into the space between the peaks. I then use a carving knife to remove the rest. Just rough carving for now. I cut the longer feathers out on the bandsaw.
-
I am hoping to chamfer/round all the edges of the feathers for a cleaner look. To start I'm using my carving knife again to chamfer the edges. It's going to be quite a bit of work to get between the feathers so I'll have to figure out a system and make sure I'm being patient. ;D I have cut myself a couple times with this knife trying to do some other carving work so being extra cautious with this project. :o I got the tips clean enough to at least string this thing up! Barely got it there with my B50 tillering string given it stretches a ton. Tiller isn't bad but definitely have some limb asymmetry in terms of strength. At least for a short time it was a bow!
-
I have about 20 of these little files (6") some of them only cut on the wide sides Not on the edges.
Sheep horn for Rattles
Stay after it ;)
Something like these ----https://www.amazon.com/Needle-HIGHEST-QUALITY-Hardened-Strength/dp/B07KH8BG1F
(https://i.imgur.com/nGnFlw3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AqEz0TJ.jpg)
-
Wow. Just checked this build out! I now have in my head, "All I know is something like a bird within her sang." "Birdsong" would be a great name for that beauty. Very cool.
-
What a work of art. Looking forward to seeing where you take it from here. Truly inspiring.
-
Have you ever heard an osprey try to sing? ::) Good idea though.
-
Very creative and cool!
-
Have you ever heard an osprey try to sing? ::) Good idea though.
I have!
-
This build along is amazing and your idea is really taking shape.
Hope it turns out a good shooter.
-
I have a wedge shaped file I inherited that is going to be good for getting between the feathers. It needed a handle so I pulled out some black locust scrap. Amazingly, this piece of wood that's probably 5-6 years old had a living borer inside! Crazy. I also made a little 'rasp' with some 80 grit sanding belt and a scrap piece of thin hickory.
-
Ryan, what a great idea. I'm really enjoying watching your build. Thanks for sharing it.
-
Coming along nicely ;)
-
Well my friends, the build is going to be postponed for a bit as my daughter has decided to arrive a bit earlier than expected. Will pick it up at a later date! ;D
-
Interesting build Ryan. So far the profiles all look very nice.
Good Luck with the arrival of your little girl. Hope she has her own angel wings.
Bjrogg
-
Congrats on the bow so far but especially on the daughter!!!!! ;) :) :)
Pappy
-
Congrats ! :)
You'll be back to making bows in about 15 years >:D
Del
-
Congratulations on the upcoming new family member, Ryan. Best wishes for Mom, the new baby and you. :OK
-
Cool build but I’m waiting for full draw and shock report. I’m behind you though. Arvin
-
Great news, Ryan. Wishing you all the best!
-
Well my friends, the build is going to be postponed for a bit as my daughter has decided to arrive a bit earlier than expected. Will pick it up at a later date! ;D
Well, we wouldn't let you off the hook for anything less. Congratulations to you, the Mrs., and the mini hunting buddy. Hope all goes smoothly. ;D
-
Awesome! Sending prayers that all goes well with the Mrs and the baby!
-
Congrats Doc... wishin you and the Mrs. all the best
-
Fantastic Craftsmanship right there! My neighbor is a falconer. He just lost his peregrine falcon, but still has "Gretchen" his Red tail hawk. I have used her for a model in the past. I use to carve decoys, but raptors are inspiring in there own. Was going to post some pics, but didn't want to hijack your thread. Great build along, thanks for sharing. John
-
(SH)
https://youtube.com/shorts/UmgzS3Qz8gw?feature=share
-
YES! You're back! What an amazing looking bow. :) Now, of course, you need to fit a reel on it and go whack some fish!
-
That turned out very nice looking. Definitely unique and one of a kind. Great job and the attention to detail is truly amazing. Looks like it spits an arrow pretty good too.
How about some specs and finished draw weight? How does it feel to shoot? How about the hand shock?
-
Still a lot of finish work to do. Hoping to finish it up before the classic. :OK More pictures and info to come when I get there. Glad it didn’t blow up! (--)
-
Tell me, did you have a plan for this, or....did you just wing it?
-
Tell me, did you have a plan for this, or....did you just wing it?
Go to your room. >:(
-
Looks great Ryan. Good to see you back.
JW I think we all know the answer to that question.lol
Bjrogg
-
Can't wait to see it live Ryan, you have always amazed me with you ideas and craftsmanship. :) Even before you was a Doctor. ;) :) :)
Pappy
-
Simply beautiful; I can't believe I've never seen anything like that before. How does it shoot? You should definitely enter it in BOM.
-
That is something!
-
Cool as anything. Hats off to you for such work.
Mike
-
Happy New Year! Well this is a long time coming. I wanted to take more pictures and do a closer analysis but didn’t get around to it. The wing bow unfortunately broke at the classic last year. I was taking some shots to make sure it could handle being shot by someone else and it exploded in spectacular fashion! (--) Close by was RyanO and some buddies who were able to console me. Weylin walked over after hearing the blast. The break was amazingly symmetrical and only one or two of the “feathers” actually broke off. I think there was only one piece we couldn’t find. Looking at the break I suspect the figured ash just couldn’t handle it. When I shot it before finishing, it was snappy and held a surprising amount of reflex. I would highly recommend people make something like this. The carving was the hardest part. I’ll probably make another at some point but it won’t be for a long while. Thanks for following as always!
-
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Well, 80% of all raptors don't survive their first year out of the nest, Nature is cruel to be kind. Those that survive generally live a long and productive life because they are the best of the best.
She was a beauty, Brother Ryan. Sorry for your loss.
-
Ya that hurts. Too bad that was a beautiful bow! Looks like it made a bang.
-
Oh, that's a bummer. What an amazing experiment though.
-
Ryan, that was one of the coolest bows I have ever seen. It was right up there with the 2 snakes eating the egg bow...that also exploded. Thanks for sharing...you are not only a craftsman, but also a crazy talented artist.
-
Yep a sad day but it was beautiful while it lasted. :)
Pappy
-
Thanks friends. Hopefully it’ll inspire more crazy bows for others! I think something like this could be a good draw for the younger generation that sees archery in the context of fantasy media like video games.