Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Digital Caveman on May 24, 2021, 11:55:20 am
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So, I want to put one layer of sinew on the 54" HHB I am working on to help hold the reflex. I have rawhide but no hide glue or Knox. How does TB3 work for sinew on bows? I use it that way on arrows. I would prefer to use that because I have it, I already know how to use it, and so I don't have to worry about moisture. How long would I have to wait for a 2mm layer of sinew to dry before I can start tillering?
Thank you,
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It can be done, many have successfully but I prefer hide glue. The TBIII will cure in 24 hours but the sinew will take longer because it will be encapsulated in a waterproof matrix.
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Ok, so if I did that how long before I could tiller? If I squeeze out all the extra glue and put it in a cool, dark place I expect the sinew could dry better. What about not soaking the sinew, just running it through thinned glue?
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the problem with using ttb3 for sinew is it dries too fast not allowing the sinew to work its magic ...it will protect the back still but not work to its full capability... JMO.. gut
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What if I reverse bend the bow while the glue dries? I would like the extra reflex to avoid stack, but I primarily want the extra elasticity.
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Buy some gelatin. Problem solved.
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I don't have the time, I am moving in 3 weeks, and I will have to stop bow work at the end of August. Also, gelatin is moisture sensitive.
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you can hang weight on handle and it will help pull in reflex.. ... the magic of sinew and hide glue is hide glue slow dries..ttb3 cures pretty fast... hide glue mixed with sinew while its drying can take months .. so does the natural ability of the sinew to pull in reflex .. all about patience and time my friend.. either you got them both or not... time seems to be your nemesis right now... there is always another bow to build...gut
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Ok, that sounds good. I'll use TB on this one and start tillering later this week, it may not be the best sinew can do, but if it's really strong and elastic that is good enough for me. :)
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I think you eliminate sinews greatest strength using TB. It’s ability to shrink while drying, using the shrinkage as a a performance booster. All kinds of test have been done that bear this out. Knox is cheap, easy and you can buy it nearly anywhere.
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Yes, but I don't have time to cure it, let alone finish the bow with enough time to build another back up for the trade by the end of august. Also, I am headed to a place with 80% humidity in the summer.
I pulled the bow into 4" reflex and put on a layer of sinew down the crown. Either there will be a lot of retained reflex or the the sinew will be nicely prestressed. Anyway, for a first go it's not too bad.
P.s. This stave came from a 2" diameter stick, so I put the sinew on the crown, but skipped some of the edges.
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Would you put a pot in your full kiln if it only looked dry? (A)
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I’ve done some just like you did but never prestressed reflex into the bow. I’ll be interested to see how much it retains. Good luck with it.
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@Pat, Yes, I know what dry clay looks like. :)
Just joking, what do you mean?
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How will you know when the sinew is dry enough to work on while tillering the bow. One layer is sinew might not be enough to keep the bow in reflex anyway. You could put the bow on a caul in reflex and heat treat the belly then add the rawhide backing with TBIII and probably achieve the same goal.
Sinew is a hygroscopic material. It takes on available moisture and releases it back to the atmosphere as per the R/H. Even if you put the sinew down dry it will absorb moisture from the glue then after the glue sets up it will slow the release of the moisture from the sinew because it is waterproof.
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This already has heated in reflex, I was hoping the sinew would keep that from pulling out.
How is this different than gluing on a hickory backing as far as moisture goes? I would think the glue and sinew would dry together, wet sinew would keep the glue moist, right?
In hindsight I do see that rawhide would have worked as well, O well, I'll just put it out in the sun and wind this week.
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Would you put a pot in your full kiln if it only looked dry? (A)
(lol) (lol) (lol) :fp
That's a great quote Pat can I use that? ;D
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This already has heated in reflex, I was hoping the sinew would keep that from pulling out.
How is this different than gluing on a hickory backing as far as moisture goes? I would think the glue and sinew would dry together, wet sinew would keep the glue moist, right?
In hindsight I do see that rawhide would have worked as well, O well, I'll just put it out in the sun and wind this week.
Wet sinew will have a lot more moisture in it than a wood backing.Tillering too quick will stretch your sinew into a set never getting it back.IE....You will lose your reflex.
Extra reflex in working limbs does not deter stack either.Lowering full draw string angle does.Flipping tips and quite severely on a 54" bow for a 26" to 27" full draw would help for stacking.
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This already has heated in reflex, I was hoping the sinew would keep that from pulling out.
How is this different than gluing on a hickory backing as far as moisture goes? I would think the glue and sinew would dry together, wet sinew would keep the glue moist, right?
In hindsight I do see that rawhide would have worked as well, O well, I'll just put it out in the sun and wind this week.
Wet sinew will have a lot more moisture in it than a wood backing.Tillering too quick will stretch your sinew into a set never getting it back.IE....You will lose your reflex.
Extra reflex in working limbs does not deter stack either.Lowering full draw string angle does.Flipping tips would help for stacking.
I was wondering why he thought general reflex would help with stack as well
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I don't have the time, I am moving in 3 weeks, and I will have to stop bow work at the end of August. Also, gelatin is moisture sensitive.
None of these things are impediments.
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I figured extra reflex will add more early draw weight, and that means you wouldn't feel as much change in weight later in the draw.
@ PatM, thank you, but the hide glue simply can't properly harden in time where I am going, and if this bow goes south I need time to make another. None of toughs will be impediments when I have enough time, so I will plan on using hide glue on the next sinew project.
@ Fox, Pottery is my primary craft.
The die is cast anyway, I probably won't get stellar results, but good is good, and it is an auxiliary measure anyway. I'll start tillering after 10 - 15 days in the sun and wind.
Thank you all for your input.
Might also put it in my kiln shed when I fire this week.
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TB and sinew take longer to dry than hide glue. Hide glue and sinew will safely dry in about 10 days.
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I thought it would be weeks or months.
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It may continue to cure but it's still safe to shoot. Hide glue actually is at peak all around strength when it's around 17% moisture.
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I thought it would be weeks or months.
The outcome of your situation is this.2mm thick of sinew is not much really.It's enough to protect a questionable back from breaking though,and it will dry rather quickly no matter what type of glue you use.Although to get the best from sinew hide glue works in partnership a lot better with sinew than TB3 at inducing reflex while drying.It should dry within 3 to 4 weeks,but it will not induce all that much sustained reflex because it is'nt thick enough.
Some Korean horn bows are able to get away with almost that thin of a layer but the have horn for the compression protection.
I've seen a fella overly stretch rawhide clamping and tying the ends in place while glueing it in place in a reverse brace profile.The problem with that procedure is that rawhides' texture is different than sinew and it will take a set easier than sinew with no return or permanent set.All things being dry of course.
It's impossible to rush these things and get maximum benefits.Good luck with your build.
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2mm sinew and collagen based glue would be fully dry in 2 weeks. TB will take longer....
Lots of misunderstanding going on :) I'd listen to the advise you've been given :)
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Ed Scott used wood glue on all his sinew backed bows, seems like it worked OK for him.
When one of these questions comes up I wonder how many of the people giving advice have actually tried wood glue with sinew, I haven't, I always used knox so I don't feel qualified to give a definitive answer based only on an opinion. I have used TB for sinew wraps on suspect limb cracks but that doesn't qualify.
I never give advice unless I have actual first hand experience about the area in question. For instance; if someone asks about hackberry bow dimensions I stay quiet, I have never made a hackberry bow.
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I'd listen to the advise you've been given :)
Yes, I will, I was really just wondering if there where any problems I should be aware of, or if anyone had any experience with the combination.
it will not induce all that much sustained reflex because it isn't thick enough.
I used the sinew mostly to prevent the heated in reflex from pulling back out, and to protect the highly crowned back, also I am just learning sinew.
It seems that the consensus is that hide glue is best, but wood glue is ok?
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Maybe if Mike Yancy sees this he will chime in about Ed Scott's TBIII/ sinew backed bows. I think Mike has also used TBIII for sinew backed bows.
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Pearlie once said that a TB and sinew backed bow shoots like a snakeskin backed bow with the body of the snake still present. Or words to that effect.
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Lots of good thoughts raised here. And EricK, that is some wise thinking.
Just my thinking...I can’t figure how TB gets into the protein structure of the sinew, though. For “bullet-proofing” a back I could see it. When I’ve done hide glue and sinew backs I did one where I used TB to lay down rawhide over it. The bow was for my young nephew and it broke from poor stringing. When I salvaged the sinew by soaking it it was usable but the TB layer just sat on top and stripped out in the soak. It never actually incorporated into the protein layer.
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That means that it would be very helpful for moisture protection in %80 humidity. Thank you Eric, that makes a lot of sense. If Pearlie wants to chime in I would be glad to hear his opinion, but I doubt he has ever shot a bow with a snake glued to the back.
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all my hide glue sinew bows that have been waterproofed with snakeskin shoot the exact same as before skin was applied. I ad my skins are applied with TB3.. over the hide glue sinew job.. of course after the sinew has cured a few months..I am in the south so it takes longer for my hide glue sinew jobs to cure.. hide glue definitely cures much slower than TB3... my skin job is ready to trim and shoot in 48 hours.. trim in 24 shoot in 48... I know this for a fact as I have skinned about 5 sinew backed bows I have done.. gut
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We're comparing a matrix of TB and sinew to a matrix of hide glue and sinew, not a light glue layer when it comes to drying and curing.
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Then tell me why horn bow makers don't use TB3 Erik.
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Because they never have, a horn bow is entirely different animal from a sinew backed bow. Some things you just don't do, considering the amount of work in a horn bow, I for one wouldn't "experiment" with a glue that is untested. I have never made a horn bow, so I don't have an opinion on whether TB would work or not.
Why don't you make one with TB and tell us if it works or not, good luck.
I gave away all my sinew a couple of weeks ago to a guy in Cal who couldn't find any, most of it was processed. I am bad to give stuff away if I see a need, I like to help new guys out.
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I know better Erik.It's because TB 3 does not contain cologen.
TB3 has been tested many times for bonding strength.That's not the issue though.It's the shrinking/reflexing and pulling strength of hide glue compared to TB3 and hide glue wins hands down.
Why is it you don't even need to clamp a wood hide glue bond and you have to clamp a TB3 bond?
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It is ERIC
I have seen many people post bows backed with sinew and TB over the years, it must work for them, like I said I haven't done it so I don't know
The question was about backing a wood bow with sinew and TB, how do horn bows fit into the topic at hand?
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The question by him Eric was to hold reflex and humidity and drying concerns dealing with sinew on his bow.
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Until you make such a bow you just won't know, if I were to make one I would have all the reflex induced by heat before I applied any sinew and TB, I don't plan to make one though.
I am not a sinew fan, like I said before, too much work with a minimal return. I don't like kind of short bows that make sinew shine, all my bows are 62-64", out of the realm of getting any benefit from sinew at my short draw..
I probably snake backed 50 bows, I don't do that anymore either, I sure like the look of unadorned osage.
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Well good for you Eric.Well stated,but we are not putting snake skin on this bow far as I know.Out of context.Your comments are out of your comfort zones for making bows,and in this situation they are'nt for mine.Until you actually put sinew and hide glue to work you will never appreciate its' qualities.I've done TB 3 reflex retaining experiments before with sinew and linen 12 ply string.No comparison to hide glue especially with sinew.The sinew will just lie there with no reflexing using TB3.
I've even used epoxy over sinew putting birch bark on for vapor barrier reasons.I usually use TB 3 for coverings over sinew.Another good vapor barrier.
I am a long bow hunter too but still can appreciate what a short bow will do.
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Oh well, no point in carrying this on any farther.
Here is my last sinew and knox osage bow. It is still in my drying box as a reminder to not use any osage that has side cracks in it even if they work out during shaping, the sinew delaminated the poor quality osage. The other picture is the bow before I applied sinew. I was making a short screamer but the osage failed. Both limbs cracked through and through, I tried filling the cracks with urac and clamping but the wood pulled apart again as the sinew cured.
On the skins I was just mentioning how my preferences have changed over the years, from wide ugly bows to slender straight limb bows to reflexed bows, from sinew bows to no sinew, from snake backed bows to no skins, a ton of bamboo backed reflexed bows and now to all static recurves, just a statement about myself, nothing more. I should have been more specific.
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Eric and Ed...two of the best bowyers I know... seems like you both prefer hide glue/knox gelatin to TB3 for applying sinew? I have never been able to convince myself that TB3 was good for sinew...BUT I have never shot one of Eds or Mikes bows... I do know how hide glue and sinew love each other though... and taking your time making a bow is a good thing. :OK
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I like hide glue with my sinew,, :) I interpreted Pearls comment as meaning the bow was slow,, with titebond,
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Eric I made a 64" osage sinew backed recurve that consistantly shot 185fps with 10gpp. Most people would say that it was a waste of time sinewing a bow so long.....anyone who has shot it doesn't think so :)
There is also this myth that sinew backed bows are seriously affected by moisture and TB would eliminate that....I've used my hornbows in the pouring rain for 2 days straight at the nationals a few years back. The bow was still good enough to win it :) In fact I didn't notice any difference.....water resistance depends on the finish used and as such you can make a sinewed bow almost impervious to water. At least for a good few days - plenty long enough for any hunt/competition. Just dry it out after your trip.
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Bob...I know your on the right track.You make excellent bows yourself.Next time at Mo Jam you shoot one of my bows.I'll shoot yours too.I'll even take the chrono with me.Eric makes excellent bows too.
Brad....your right.It just added physical weight to the bow is all and the bows parameters and profile stayed the same.
Mike....I've had the same experiences hunting with sinewed bows and sinewing 64" bows.Putting horn on the belly of 64" bows too long ago.It just makes them narrower and just as fast and faster than self bows.Arvin showed this.
This is tradecraftsmens' thread here and I see no need to post my accomplishments on it to hijack it.
Like I said earlier on a different thread there's lots of misinterpreted info spread on this forum.There's a tendency on this forum in that just because it takes more work it is'nt worth it.Wrong,wrong,wrong.Not if you know what your doing from trial and error.
Making bows to me is a continual learning process.I don't claim to know it all either.But what I do know I know.The adventure never ends if the desire is there.There are some outstanding bow makers on this forum.Not as many showing as years ago but there's still a few around.
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Then their is the fish bladder glue comparison with hide glue. Which is better, and why do you prefer one over the other? Fact is TB3 works, fish bladder glue works, and hide glue works. From their it's your choice for what ever reason.
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I think you should use egg yoke, have you ever tried to scrub that stuff off a pan?! :o ;D
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Wow, this evolved! Funny, AllynT...that is a curious thought.
Does anyone know of any data driven work showing the result of TB and sinew curing into reflex, respectfully?
Cheers, guys.
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TB and sinew take longer to dry than hide glue. Hide glue and sinew will safely dry in about 10 days.
hide glue definitely cures much slower than TB3
??? ??? ???
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hahaha.. love debating.. I stand firmly by my statement... at least in high humidity where I live.. I can not speak for drier climates... gut
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What is your draw length and poundage Bownarra, that has the most to do with arrow speed and getting the most out of a bow.
I draw a paltry 25-26", 25" most of the time. I am sure the sinew enhanced the arrow speed for you, at my draw length, I don't know. I get in the low 160s out of my favorite static recurve at 52#, if I horse it back another inch to 27" and about 56+ pounds so I get 171, with 10gph. I really don't like chronographs, I think we all think to the positive on what a bow is spitting out. I have never shot a bow through one and come out with as high an arrow speed as I though I was getting, always kind of a letdown.
I don't know if it is the static recurve or I have gotten better as bowyer over the years but the my latest bows are better shooters than my former straight limb bows, more stable and forgiving and bit faster at the same poundage.
There was a foul mouth guy running me down on the Facebook stick bow page bragging about getting 195 out of his unbacked osage bows. He had never seen one of my bows or heard of me but immediately launched into a foul mouth tirade about how sorry I was and what a piss poor bow maker I must be all because I had give an honest appraisal of a bow someone had posted for sale that strung had one limb with a 6" brace height and the other with the string almost touching the very straight limb. The tillering job was the worst I have ever seen, the guy had sold similar bows and had this one up for sale for $450, people who didn't know better were going gaga over it.
I thought I was dealing with a 14 year old keyboard warrior because the language, spelling and viciousness of his attack. Then he posted a picture of himself drawing his bow, dang he was a monster of a man, at least 6'4" and a real knuckle dragger. So, he left that part out, anyone who is fortunate to have a very long draw length and the strength to pull a high poundage bow could match his arrow speed.
There were about 4 or 5 other guys that jumped into the fray to run me down as well, honesty really rubs some folk the wrong way. I took it for a day and asked the mods to remove me from their cesspool of a site, it was a breath of fresh air to come back to PA where the guys are civil, most of the time.......
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Then he posted a picture of himself drawing his bow, dang he was a monster of a man, at least 6'4" and a real knuckle dragger. So, he left that part out, anyone who is fortunate to have a very long draw length and the strength to pull a high poundage bow could match his arrow speed.
That'll do it, I wonder what his arrows weigh and how long his bows last?
You should challenge them to a shoot off, most people are a lot less civil when they can hide behind their screen.
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I forget who it was , but some body did a test with balsa wood. .He got no reflex with TB3, but did get reflex with the hide glue. In conclusion he stated that hide glue was the only way to go with sinew. I have used both. In my opinion hide glue is made for sinew, but I have sinew backed a couple dozen bows with TB3 that I was satisfied with. Ed Scott didn't like" messy hide glue" as he called it. For that reason he used TB 3.
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Laubin discussed his take on the attributes of sinew and hide glue. His observation was that the shrinkage, pulled the bow into greater reflex, giving it the boost in performance. Dick Baugh did tests with sinew, comparing hide glue and Elmers for bonding. The results are what I would have expected. Little if any shrinkage with Elmers, and little to no advantage. In contrast, the sinew/hide glue shrank, pulling the bow into greater reflex, adding a boost in performance. I believe it’s your bow, and you can do with it what you wish. Just understand going in, the facts and what your expected outcome is. Having done a few sinew backed bows, I can say that it is a lot of work, at a minimum. I will at some point do another, despite the time involved, but my expectations might differ from yours. Have fun with it either way.
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TB and sinew take longer to dry than hide glue. Hide glue and sinew will safely dry in about 10 days.
hide glue definitely cures much slower than TB3
??? ??? ???
Thick matrix versus single glueline.
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I have one ready and waiting to sinew now. Sinew is shredded and ready. Just need to find the time. Soooo busy. I want to get it done fairly soon though, want to be hunting with it this October.
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It'll get hide glue for sure.... and the best pair of copperheads I have.
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PatM.. my reference is not to single glue line..in fact I size the bow with hide glue before I soak sinew in hide glue wring out sinew then lay on bow.. usually 2 full courses with a 3rd fill in to smooth out any spots.. to achieve the full benefits of all my labor (just processing the sinew is enough) I am going with the proven method of hide glue and sinew ( peas and carrots)..not some liquid hide glue from a bottle either.. which if it dries in 10 days why does it continue to pull reflex for over a month into drying.. I also hang a weight from the handle to get even more benefits of my hard labor.I remove the weight after about 3 weeks or so.. and let set another month... not saying the TB won't work .. because it will work.. but you won't get the full affect of the sinew by using it.. you will get a strong back provided you've done the job right.. but you could of got more bang for your buck by slow curing the sinew job with hide glue.. down south especially.. gut
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I was saying that Hide glue matrix dries to a useable degree faster than a TB one does. Not saying it doesn't cure and dry more over time but it's still functional in about 10 days with good drying conditions.
TB is slowed by its relative water resistance.
My statement in error referred to you mentioning a TB glued on skin dries quickly.
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its all good Pat ..
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So I left the bow braced backwards until the TB hardened, and then the next day I put it in this contraption and clipped the thing to the clothesline in hot sun and 20+ mph wind off the lake for two days. It now has 4" reflex, I hope it will hold at least 2". I'll leave it for a week at least at this rate.
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You will lose most of your reflex. If you end up even to 1.5 inches of reflex take it. I sinew back bows when stave backs are bad . Rather than de crowning ,and backing which I have done in the past with Bamboo, or Hickory I just reflex, and sinew, and use TB3. I just finished a 45lb sinew backed 60 inch Osage recently using TB3 that ended up with 1 inch of reflex with slightly flipped tips. Shooting a 10 GPP arrow , or a 450 gr arrow at 25 inches of draw through a chrony the average speed was 153 fps. I know for a fact if I had sinew backed that same bow with hide glue I could have gotten more reflex, and better speed, but 153 fps with a 450 gr. arrow at a reasonable range will dispatch a white tail no problem. I used one thick layer of sinew, and an 8 strand low stretch string. My bows have non working risers. Your bow, your choice.
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That's a good speed for a 25" draw. How much reflex did you bend in before adding the sinew?
1.5" would be fine, the heat bent in 2". This is a plains style, and they didn't have a ton of reflex. Much more and stringing would be an issue anyway.
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4 inches, and I tillered the bow carefully one inch at a time over a period of time making sure I got a good tiller. Your bendy handle will help. My best plains bow is 50 inches long 25 inch draw. Holding close to 3 inches of reflex, but that one is built with hide glue ,and sinew. Good luck with yours.