Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: HanibalLecter(InnerSmile) on June 07, 2021, 12:38:13 am
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Hey guys,
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Masters_of_the_Steppe_The_Impact_of_the/W6MWEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fruit+tree+bark+bow+scythian&pg=PA110&printsec=frontcover
^ In the above link the author describes a European Scythian reflex-deflex bow that uses fruit tree bark (apple or pear) as a belly material. It had an oak wood core and was backed with sinew. I never heard of anyone using tree bark as a belly material before. What are the properties like? This bow has hornbow-tier morphology and is extremely short. Have we been sleeping on pear bark as a belly material?
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A 30" bow with 15" arrows.....made out of entirely unsuitable materials....likely just a burial 'bow', maybe good enough to string but thats it. The bark would do nothing.
Awaits predictable reply :)
Have you made a replica to see how well it shoots??? ;)
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A 30" bow with 15" arrows.....made out of entirely unsuitable materials....likely just a burial 'bow', maybe good enough to string but thats it. The bark would do nothing.
Awaits predictable reply :)
Have you made a replica to see how well it shoots??? ;)
It clearly implies that this bow was functional and that the pear bark plates were used to make it more resilient when firing.
The Scythians used 30" bows:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Vas_d%27or_amb_representació_d%27escites%2C_kurgan_de_Kul-Oba%2C_segona_meitat_del_segle_IV_aC.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/BEVFoFhVJqbsMO-m4iFmDt-THs5INDu82YiuUX4dVlkPh0huUrUG9YYJIHWBrX2aiT-thORwHLIfLW5_ZsaHuDVc7jeVMfOxHJM5mfLh1AlK2ClBX82Dsst1oZKd6xswVeSU0gj1r5-4grhv8azRELgPlMLHSPbI0LojaIXmsoUfv-FCvwxefa0)
Anyway yes I have made a replica of this bow and it fires 15" arrows at 227fps.
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Note that, like the Scythian horn bows from Yanghai, the working limbs of the bow are thicker than their width.
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Bark is generally used as warterproofing or decoration, its structural properties won't help performance.
Del
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... in the book they wrote, that the belly is reinforced with wood or treebark. ....
Thus, the analysis is not clear-cut. One can now ponder whether wood or bark would be better..... and for what purpose they would be better?
Bark as moisture protection is known from many bows, quivers and food containers. There are composite bows that are completely wrapped with bark. There are composite bows that are covered with bark only on one side (usually the back) and there are wood sinew composite bows without horn.....
Now let's put 1 and 1 together and conclude ....?
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... in the book they wrote, that the belly is reinforced with wood or treebark. ....
Thus, the analysis is not clear-cut. One can now ponder whether wood or bark would be better..... and for what purpose they would be better?
Bark as moisture protection is known from many bows, quivers and food containers. There are composite bows that are completely wrapped with bark. There are composite bows that are covered with bark only on one side (usually the back) and there are wood sinew composite bows without horn.....
Now let's put 1 and 1 together and conclude ....?
No, they state very clearly that the belly of the bow is reinforced with a plate of fruit tree bark (pear or apple). The bow was also spirally wrapped with a different species of bark, but the bark plates were attached to the belly like horn.
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Will you post pics of your replica?
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Note that, like the Scythian horn bows from Yanghai, the working limbs of the bow are thicker than their width.
On a 30" bow? :o I'd have to see that in action.
If you think the bark idea would work go ahead and try it.
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Maybe we just read differently?
Quote: " In order to give the bow greater elasticity and strength a thin plate of wood or fruit tree bark - most likely wild apple or pear, both medium density species- was attachedt o the belly."
Pics would be nice. So far I have seen only replicas of scytian bows, that were build as research for a book by a german bowyer (the replicas haven't bark as a belly, but they have also no horn as belly. The bows are wood and sinew composites).
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I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
They then ask a question and proceed to argue with the answer!
Neither party has first hand experience of the random idea so it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion especially when the OP refuses to acknowledge the vast breadth of experience of the forum.
Just because something has been written doesn't mean it's correct, plenty of people with little or no bow making expertise have written nonsense, even some bowyers who should know better!
If you really want info on a theory, do the experiments, build a bow and post the results.
Most of us here are happy to learn, to be shown to be wrong and eat humble pie if necessary!
Del
BTW. I've heard that medieval archers had strings made of rhubarb... has anyone any experience of this.. what do you all think? >:D
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Strings from rhubarb sounds better than trying to eat the darned stuff -left alone, it might have long enough fibers for cordage >:D (lol),
Hawkdancer
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I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
They then ask a question and proceed to argue with the answer!
Neither party has first hand experience of the random idea so it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion especially when the OP refuses to acknowledge the vast breadth of experience of the forum.
Just because something has been written doesn't mean it's correct, plenty of people with little or no bow making expertise have written nonsense, even some bowyers who should know better!
If you really want info on a theory, do the experiments, build a bow and post the results.
Most of us here are happy to learn, to be shown to be wrong and eat humble pie if necessary!
Del
BTW. I've heard that medieval archers had strings made of rhubarb... has anyone any experience of this.. what do you all think? >:D
A majority of his posts so far have been of this sort. It was not that long ago that we had someone of the very same mindset that created enough havoc with their infernal pot stirring that they eventually got themselves booted.
I am not altogether sure that person has not re-spawned with a new moniker.
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It would be simple enough to get some well dried bark strips, heat treat them, and saturate them with hide glue; then see if they have any good compressive strength or not. Anyone?
Didn't someone try to create horn substitute by chemically melting finger nails or something like that? Probably not in this forum. You never know. Who would have thought brittle glass fibers can have so much tensile strength when they are combined with epoxy? Until someone tried.
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It would be simple enough to get some well dried bark strips, heat treat them, and saturate them with hide glue; then see if they have any good compressive strength or not. Anyone?
Didn't someone try to create horn substitute by chemically melting finger nails or something like that? Probably not in this forum. You never know. Who would have thought brittle glass fibers can have so much tensile strength when they are combined with epoxy? Until someone tried.
You make a good point. That is why people are asking the posters who are posing the question to try it and post their results. There are many amazing bows being made now out of woods that were thought of as being unusable or unsuitable not too long ago. In order to spend my time experimenting I have to believe that I can at some point have desired results. If the OP thinks it will work, he should spend his or her time trying, not ask others to do so for him or her.
I know I can make a good self bow, and can make one with mild to moderate reflex fairly well. I however have tried several times to make recurve bows and those attempts have mostly been failures. If one went off of my experiments with making recurves, one would say that recurring the limb of a wooden mow is not possible to a completely satisfactory end. We know that is not true though; not because of written text but physical examples of awesome recurve bows. If I had experimented recurving bow tips going off of written text alone, I would have declared the notion of satisfactorily doing so not possible.
Prove the theory is possible through experiments then argue as such, not post a theory and argue with the opinion of folks with countless man hours involved in bow making.
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This is funny :)
Obviously oak has some amazing properties that have eluded all modern bowyers....I mean somebody wrote that this bow was functional....so it must have been....experience counts for nothing but a few words written by who? trumps all! Yes highly logical argument you've got there.....can't wait to see this replica you've made! Is the 227fps an average? With what weight arrows? At what drawlength? String material? Presumably you use thumb draw?
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I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
This post sounds suspiciously like posts from a recently banned member by the name of Tom Dulaney. Even more suspicious is the fact that this Hannibal account was registered a few days after Tom was banned. I hope I'm wrong
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Don't you manually approve each new member? I assume the associated email addresses are different.
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Rhubarb = sour celery yuk! I’m with Jerry. It’s unsuitable for my consumption.
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It's definitely Tom. Check his posts and the whole style of posting is identical.
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The book is not an amateurish hack.
https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Svetlana_Pankova_Masters_of_the_Steppe_The_Impact?id=W6MWEAAAQBAJ
We should not be too disrespectful of people who spend their lives in research, even if they are not experts in experimental archeology.
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Ill be right back, my wife is calling,, :)
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I am beginning to think that Scythians had found a better way to keep the reflex or setback. I was wondering why on earth they added tree bark on the belly to the much stronger oak stave. It appears that they were pre-stressing the bow limbs. In a sense reflexing is pre-stressing the limbs in the process of bracing the bow. But the limbs can be pre-stressed by adding a lath to the belly of the core and gluing them together. It's actually easier to pre-stress such limbs by binding them together while bending both, with tendon/sinew or even just leather strips. That means pre-stressed reflexing is thousands years old. This can also explain the unusual power of rather short Scythian bows.
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It would be simple enough to get some well dried bark strips, heat treat them, and saturate them with hide glue; then see if they have any good compressive strength or not. Anyone?
Didn't someone try to create horn substitute by chemically melting finger nails or something like that? Probably not in this forum. You never know. Who would have thought brittle glass fibers can have so much tensile strength when they are combined with epoxy? Until someone tried.
Finally, someone with an open mind...
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If the bark coating was found on the bow belly, it does not mean that the conclusions in the book also apply.
Bark may not improve performance or strength, but it may protect the wood underneath with its waterproofing and flexibility. The bow becomes heavier in weight and loses some performance - but maybe it lasts longer.....
A very interesting book article about syctian bows p. 26 to p.59
https://books.google.de/books/about/Reflexbogen.html?id=h3H9pjiDsgsC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&redir_esc=y
- interesting is that there are bows finds from graves, which are probably pure wooden bows (without sinew covering and without hornbelly) but probably laminated.
Some of the replicas were composite bows (sinew, wood core and horn), some were sinew covered wooden bows.
The bows were approximately 45 to 46 inches long. The draw weights of the bows were all in the 40 to 55 lbs range.
None of the bows achieved speeds over 150fps with a draw of 24 inches.
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Adam Karpowicz made a bow of this style from laminated bamboo and sinew and the weight was very high and the performance excellent, all things considered. I'm pretty sure it was over 200 with light arrows. I believe the bow was under 40 inches in length.
I don't think they were all just complex grave goods.
ETA: Here's the specs: " This bow has a bamboo belly, hardwood(?) core and is heavily backed with sinew - prob. about 1/2 the thickness of the limbs. It is only 32 inches ntn and the limbs mid length are only 19.5mm wide x 11.5mm thick. And only 160 grams total mass. I had to fix one limb which delaminated from overdrawing. Please add the imaginary recurved nocks of your choice, typical of these bows.
The f-d curve looks horrible with all the stacking and energy storage is obviously poor. However, the stats are quite impressive:
draw weight: around 90lb at 20 inches draw (gains some 30lb in the last 2 inches of draw!), SE/PDF is less than 0.5, 310 grain arrow - 204fps, 474 grain arrow - 176fps. Humidity 35-40%RH, 14de"
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InnerSmile,
Repeating myself from your 'Alternative ways...' thread, in which you failed to reply to me, "please, post some of your work so the community can gain insight into your background and intention." In that previous post you insulted forum members with actual experience by calling them "simple minded." Now, in this thread you insinuate closed minded behavior by people who have proper cause to question your seemingly selfish, speculative posts.
Frankly, your online behavior is rude, and I find genuine irony in your obtuse behavior given your chosen handle.
Really, WHY NOT POST SOME OF YOUR WORK? Perhaps you can actually gain some validity versus being marginalized.
Your speculative research could be interesting and could be worth considering. I wonder if you have the integrity to lay down the actual work in answering your own questions...or not.
This will be my last polite post if you fail to offer some actual validation.
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
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I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
This post sounds suspiciously like posts from a recently banned member by the name of Tom Dulaney. Even more suspicious is the fact that this Hannibal account was registered a few days after Tom was banned. I hope I'm wrong
If you are wrong, I will eat the hat of your choice.
Tom II, seriously, build the bow and prove us wrong.
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I believe the bows were functional but that the actual function of the bark is a bit speculative. The bows seemed to be more of a common design and short in length but of varied construction and materials.
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
Some of us already know and don't need to prove things again and again....
I've read the link. I've read many articles like it too and am not particulary keen with the way assumptions are made in it. It isn't very scientific, the writers have likely never made a bow and as such is of very limited practical use.
Parnell - :)
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
Some of us already know and don't need to prove things again and again....
I've read the link. I've read many articles like it too and am not particulary keen with the way assumptions are made in it. It isn't very scientific, the writers have likely never made a bow and as such is of very limited practical use.
Parnell - :)
Some scientist you are. What little evidence you have provided for your bows is unimpressive. Bad experience = bad opinions. Thing is, a lot of people don't realize how bad they've had it.
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
Some of us already know and don't need to prove things again and again....
I've read the link. I've read many articles like it too and am not particulary keen with the way assumptions are made in it. It isn't very scientific, the writers have likely never made a bow and as such is of very limited practical use.
Parnell - :)
Did you see the bow Adam made?
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
Some of us already know and don't need to prove things again and again....
I've read the link. I've read many articles like it too and am not particulary keen with the way assumptions are made in it. It isn't very scientific, the writers have likely never made a bow and as such is of very limited practical use.
Parnell - :)
Some scientist you are. What little evidence you have provided for your bows is unimpressive. Bad experience = bad opinions. Thing is, a lot of people don't realize how bad they've had it.
Unfortunately "Tom" you have never shown any evidence of your own. Keep it up and you will be banned....again
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In spite of many peculiar terms, probably literal translations of Russian terms by a person not familiar with English terms used by us, descriptions of the bow's composition appear to be meticulous and reliable. There are not many speculations. I find the information quite valuable and useful.
The use of the term "pre-stressed" in the article does not appear to be referring to the pre-stressed and glued reflex we understand, but just a side profile that is pre-stressed on bracing.
The binding of two wood strips suggests Scythians are not just making setback/reflex-deflex-recurve shape bows; but actually making pre-stressed and glued reflex/setback bows using fish bladder glue between the two distinct wooden laths. The question remains why tree bark was used for the belly instead of simply making an oak backed oak bow.
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Maybe just as a way of sealing the belly?
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google, but once you get rude you can't ask him to be polite.
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
Some of us already know and don't need to prove things again and again....
I've read the link. I've read many articles like it too and am not particulary keen with the way assumptions are made in it. It isn't very scientific, the writers have likely never made a bow and as such is of very limited practical use.
Parnell - :)
Some scientist you are. What little evidence you have provided for your bows is unimpressive. Bad experience = bad opinions. Thing is, a lot of people don't realize how bad they've had it.
1) "Some scientist you are." Denigrating people again? Not cool and not what this group tolerates.
2) "What little evidence you have provided for your bows is unimpressive." What is unimpressive is your body of work. Or shall we say the utter lack thereof. Until you post your work, any credibility you may have had when you joined is spent. You now have none.
3) "...a lot of people don't realize how bad they've had it" You, with no experience in so much as tillering a simple D bow, don't even realize how vast your lack of knowledge is. And here you are, yet again, lecturing experienced bowyers, including a number of world record holders in international competition.
Your hubris has once again become tedious to bear.
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google........
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
the author of the quoted paper also proposes a bow side profile whose tips become more reflexed as the bow is drawn.
Edit: "also" removed as it implies the author of the paper asserts the same as the OP.
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And the handle becomes more setback under the pressure of the draw too.
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??? :o :-\ ::) So maybe I should have followed my own advice and read the thing, I guess I am not interested enough to worry about it.
:-X
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Please note that the conclusion refers to a piece of bark 4.54mm wide and 3.24mm thick (25,4mm = 1 inch).
Several bows were examined and only one possibly had a bark facing.
Sinew coatings, sinew and bark wrappings had several bows
The whole thing can be perceived as an interesting detail but nothing more.
I am very interested to see the bow of hannibal.
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Please note that the conclusion refers to a piece of bark 4.54mm wide and 3.24mm thick (25,4mm = 1 inch).
Several bows were examined and only one possibly had a bark facing.
Sinew coatings, sinew and bark wrappings had several bows
The whole thing can be perceived as an interesting detail but nothing more.
That's what's left. It was clearly stated that the belly strip of tree bark was structural.
"To this we should add that the fruit-tree plate glued to the belly also contributed to the stiffness of the bow. this combination of various flexible and resilient materials in the design of the bow from Vodoslavka kurgan allowed the bow with short shoulders to impart more energy to the arrow than a simple bow construction."
The tree bark was not a mere decoration or water-proofing. It was used as a part of pre-stressing the two layer limbs. A simple experimentation is in order.
Can someone glue a 1" wide, 1/2" thick and 24" long hickory strip to a 1" wide, 1/4" thick, and 24" long cedar strip, pre-stressing them with 2 inch setback/reflex? Then we can compare its strength with a same size, 3/4" thick, hickory stave. It can be heat-bent to the same shape. I am not sure how long it will take for me to get around to do this myself. Thanks.
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How about we simmer down and read the link he posted? Generally speaking, the group's conventional wisdom trumps google........
Let's not shoot down the idea until it has been proven wrong, let's not adapt the idea until it has been proven right.
the author of the quoted paper also proposes a bow side profile whose tips become more reflexed as the bow is drawn.
You don't understand what you're talking about. The figures aren't depicted at identical angles/positions.
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Is bark stiff enough to logically create additional stiffness to the limb?
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Is bark stiff enough to logically create additional stiffness to the limb?
Possibly, especially if bound to an oak stave and encased with tendon.
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I remember when the "Experts" wrote their well researched papers on the (I believe) "Iceman's" bows he carried, and those experts concluded that people from that particular time and era, built their bows "backwards" from what we today would consider as proper. They tillered the backs of their bows. It was science, written by the experts. Experts that had never made a bow I would presume. It didn't take a genius IQ to figure out something just wasn't right.
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In fairness an experienced guy by our measures(Paul Comstock) thought this was true as well.
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Tillering the back of the sapling stave is a perfectly reasonable way to make a decent bow. Using lighter materials on the bow wherever possible is not a bad way to make a fast bow. Our meager understanding of the natural materials cannot compare with the thousands of years of experience of people who lived with their bows as we live with our cell phones. We are the ones who talk about Perry reflex when the pre-stressed glued reflexing was practiced for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years.
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Is bark stiff enough to logically create additional stiffness to the limb?
Possibly, especially if bound to an oak stave and encased with tendon.
But if the bark is not stiff and tendon isn't either, could this be true?
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Is bark stiff enough to logically create additional stiffness to the limb?
Possibly, especially if bound to an oak stave and encased with tendon.
But if the bark is not stiff and tendon isn't either, could this be true?
Cured glue is very stiff, especially when it is attached to long fibers.
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It might work if you use nails instead of glue to affix the bark to the belly of the bow...
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Gluing wood laminates together is a popular technique in bow making.
The finds of Scytian bows show that these bows were partly made of wood only (laminated), partly covered with sinew and/or also wrapped, partly sinew-covered and hornfaced.
The bows presented in the article were all without hornfacing.
The one bow found was made of wood laminated (oak and fruit tree) and covered with sinew and wrapped with sinew.
Belly facing (under the sinew wrapping) was found to be fruit tree bark.
Was the belly facing possibly a laminate of fruit tree incl. bark?
If I took bamboo as belly for such a bow, I would also have the outermost layer of bamboo as bow belly but bamboo as grass has no bark....
In which way the bark was used (around the tree or along the tree (from root to crown)) is not written so the fiber direction is not clear....
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Is bark stiff enough to logically create additional stiffness to the limb?
Possibly, especially if bound to an oak stave and encased with tendon.
But if the bark is not stiff and tendon isn't either, could this be true?
Cured glue is very stiff, especially when it is attached to long fibers.
Try bending a sinew and glue matrix strip.
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Try bending a sinew and glue matrix strip.
When they are bound to a relatively thin oak stave?
That's what my experiment several posts above is all about.
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Hanibal Lecter's profile is on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Lecter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Lecter)
Now you know what's in the pots he stirs.
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Try bending a sinew and glue matrix strip.
When they are bound to a relatively thin oak stave?
That's what my experiment several posts above is all about.
Why not just experiment with that then? Sinew does not stiffen a slat much.
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Try bending a sinew and glue matrix strip.
When they are bound to a relatively thin oak stave?
That's what my experiment several posts above is all about.
Why not just experiment with that then? Sinew does not stiffen a slat much.
That's the first step with just glue, no sinew involved. Next step would be wrapping the whole thing with tendon. Even a flimsy material can have plenty of compressive strength if it is wrapped tightly together with a stiff material. If sinew is used, it is even possible that sinew's tensile strength is used in the compression of the belly.
Main idea is that tree bark is a lot lighter than oak wood. That's why many all fiberglass bows are replaced with wooden core ones.
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Tensile strength used in compression? Can you pull and push a rope at the same time?
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Tensile strength used in compression? Can you pull and push a rope at the same time?
Have you ever tried to rupture a balloon by compressing it?
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OK, since y'all are not inclined to follow a link when you could just keep on arguing, here is the gist of Hanibal Lecter.
From Wikipedia:
Dr. Hannibal Lecter is a character created by novelist Thomas Harris. Lecter is a serial killer who eats his victims. Before his capture, he was a respected forensic psychiatrist; after his incarceration, he is consulted by FBI agents Clarice Starling and Will Graham to help them find other serial killers.
Lecter first appeared in a small role as a villain in Harris's 1981 thriller novel Red Dragon. The novel was adapted into the film Manhunter (1986), with Brian Cox as Lecter. Lecter had a larger role in The Silence of the Lambs
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Hannibal or Cannibal? That makes for a strange handle, but what does the inner smile have to do with it?
However, some people here think he was invented by Tom Dunley, not Tom Harris.
Got to say though, he certainly would be a lousy killer with the kind of weapons he's been posting. ::)
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Hey guys,
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Masters_of_the_Steppe_The_Impact_of_the/W6MWEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fruit+tree+bark+bow+scythian&pg=PA110&printsec=frontcover
^ In the above link the author describes a European Scythian reflex-deflex bow that uses fruit tree bark (apple or pear) as a belly material. It had an oak wood core and was backed with sinew. I never heard of anyone using tree bark as a belly material before. What are the properties like? This bow has hornbow-tier morphology and is extremely short. Have we been sleeping on pear bark as a belly material?
Tom,
the quoted article does not say the bowyer used bark. It was mentioned as a possibilty between bark and wood. From the acknowlegement, the species was determined at a university in the Ukraine. Perhaps the the tests could not differienate between bark and wood? The author does not seem to make any assumptions. But if it was bark like you say, show us something substantial, otherwise I would prefer to go with apple or pear wood.
BTW, is this an Ad Hominem response?
You don't understand what you're talking about.