Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: boomhowzer on August 19, 2021, 10:52:58 pm
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I've been seeing some very short bows with on here lately, particularly:
Tibor's
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,70453.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,70453.0.html)
and organic_archer's
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,70486.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,70486.0.html)
Why is everyone so obsessed with drawing a full 26, 27, or 28 inches? It seems like a short, compact draw would be far more accurate and discrete in an ambush situation. It also seems like a wider variety of materials can withstand a 20" draw, meaning good bow woods could be shorter and bad bow woods could be weaker. Am I missing something? Or should I be hunting with a 48" bow drawing 45# @ 20" this year?
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I don't understand how you even break a bow. Of any type. It's the one problem I've never had before. I suck at everything that's considered easy around here, but all my bows draw past 30" no problem. Even wood bows. Even oak bows. And I never have any set. It's the same thing with flexibility. Most Americans can't touch their toes without bending their knees forward. I can put my ankles together with my legs actually bending inward, and put my hands flat on the floor. Some people are just living in an alternate reality where range of motion is severely reduced.
I agree with you though, you can make a fine bow with a short draw. Making it thicker than usual (like an English longbow) and a good deal of reflex seems to help improve cast on the bows you don't want to draw far.
On the other hand, making bows very wide and thin is a good way to increase draw. More draw = more potential energy storage, but if you're not using straight grained and mostly knot-free wood with most non-conifers, you're probably going to get a break.
I eventually gave up on trying to find good bow wood and just starting splicing short pieces together, and gluing them to handles. Making bows this way is funner, to be honest. Never understood the appeal of character staves, when they're more prone to break and you can build a bow out 12" slivers of perfect wood. Primitives did it all around the world -- see the Tuktut Novait bow, Sheepeater Indian horn bows, Eskimo caribou antler bows, etc.
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Why is everyone so obsessed with drawing a full 26, 27, or 28 inches?
Very few people can get a good anchor with a 20" draw using anything like proper form. A longer draw length offers a significant performance advantage over a shorter one. For target shooting this doesn't really matter, but it does if you are hunting. Longer bows are more stable and usually more forgiving of form errors.
The short draw allows short bows, which can be made from smaller staves. Short bows are generally easier to move through brush with.
I'm sure there are a fair number I have missed, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately.
Mark
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And importantly, they are inefficent due to the short draw, storing little energy. Such a short power stroke will always struggle.
As a rule of thumb the longer the draw the more likely its a decent bow :)
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Energy stored is approximately half of draw weight x draw length.
It's as simple as that.
Short bows are good in confined spaces.
A short draw is good for punching yourself in the mouth.
A long draw is easier to anchor.
Anyone who say "I don't understand how you even break a bow" is not trying hard enough.
I don't think anyone is obsessed with long draws... one man's long is another man's regular and it depends on the nationality and heritage.
The UK and Asian traditions have a longer draw than the native American.
Del
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So are you guys saying that an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 28” draw will travel with more velocity than an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 20” draw?
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So are you guys saying that an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 28” draw will travel with more velocity than an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 20” draw?
Yup! Longer the draw, the more distance it has to speed up as long as the bow is made well. Anytime the arrow is loosed and in contact with the string, it’s speeding up. That’s why a lower brace height will sometimes make the arrow faster. Longer distance for the string to travel.
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Here is an example My late fried had a 31" draw, as his health deteriorated he ended up shooting just over 30#. He could get 164fps out of that light bow shooting gold tip arrows because his draw length and the bows power stroke was so long.
I draw 25" most of the time, just a guess but I doubt if I could have gotten much over 120fps out of his bow at 30+# at my 25" short draw length.
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So are you guys saying that an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 28” draw will travel with more velocity than an arrow shot from a 45# bow at a 20” draw?
Yes...
Say you have a 4" brace:-
At 20 inch draw the power stroke is 16", the draw weight goes up from zero to 45# (approx) so it averages at 22.5#
So the total force x distance is 16x22.5 pound inches.
That is 360 pound inches.
At 28" draw the power stroke is 24" at the same average draw weight which gives 24x22.5 pound inches.
That is 540 pound inches
That's a big difference!
Del
Another way to look at it is to drop a half pound hammer on your foot from 20" and then try it on the other foot from 28" ;)
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Another way to look at it is to drop a half pound hammer on your foot from 20" and the try it on the other foot from 28" ;)
(lol) (lol) ::)
That's the best way to explain DW vs velocity (lol)
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I don't understand how you even break a bow. Of any type. It's the one problem I've never had before. I suck at everything that's considered easy around here, but all my bows draw past 30" no problem. Even wood bows. Even oak bows. And I never have any set.
??? Would love to see that.
Another way to look at it is to drop a half pound hammer on your foot from 20" and the try it on the other foot from 28" ;)
(lol) (lol) ::)
That's the best way to explain DW vs velocity (lol)
+3
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Short stroke can work. See crossbows. Reflex your short bows a little more than normal to compensate.
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What country are you from, and whats up with a handle like HanibalLecter? The way you talk you should have won some gold metals for your country were ever that may be, and short bows with short power strokes are no match to longer bows with longer power strokes same weight as has been explained above.LOL
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Short stroke can work. See crossbows. Reflex your short bows a little more than normal to compensate.
(-P lol
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Short stroke can work. See crossbows. Reflex your short bows a little more than normal to compensate.
Yes, short strokes CAN work and can be very effective especially crossbows .... with a windlass and a 200# to 900# draw weight ;)
although of course a plenty effective bow can be made with a short draw, history proves that :) many cultures had very short draws, but... the simple fact is, is that longer power stroke = better arrow speed, and easier to have a more consistent anchor point
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I can shoot short bows almost as well as a longbow out to about 20 yards, but past that the groups open up. They’re shot instinctively with a floating anchor. A longer bow with a solid anchor is easier to be accurate with, compounding at longer distances. In my experience, anyway.
Let’s say a short and a long bow are equally well made. Power stroke is something to consider as mentioned before. The longer bow shoots a longer/heavier arrow faster. But the short, light arrows out of said shorty are traveling really, really fast.
Both designs made properly will kill anything you want. Hunt with what you like. It’ll just take more practice to be proficient with a shorty. The fun factor is x10, so you won’t mind flinging some extra arrows. (SH)
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Short stroke can work. See crossbows. Reflex your short bows a little more than normal to compensate.
Yes, short strokes CAN work and can be very effective especially crossbows .... with a windlass and a 200# to 900# draw weight ;)
although of course a plenty effective bow can be made with a short draw, history proves that :) many cultures had very short draws, but... the simple fact is, is that longer power stroke = better arrow speed, and easier to have a more consistent anchor point
Of course... I didn't mean to suggest that that short draws were superior... only that they can shoot sufficiently for many tasks. I've found that making your bows thick and narrow really seems to help with improving cast on short bows. So does a lotta reflex.
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What country are you from, and whats up with a handle like HanibalLecter? The way you talk you should have won some gold metals for your country were ever that may be, and short bows with short power strokes are no match to longer bows with longer power strokes same weight as has been explained above.LOL
I'm from Canada. My user name is a reference to a song by an artist called "Quadrant" - Hannibal Lecter (Inner Smile RMX).
Although in general I agree with your assessment, it's a bit simplistic. Shorter bows are easier to get a good bow weight-draw weight ratio. Longer bows carry a lot of weight, and have too much mass to fire lighter arrows. Short bows can have a really, really heavy draw weight if you make them thick enough. You can also brace them really low to improve power cast -- or even do a Scythian-style reflex-deflex. Scythian bows were pretty short but had great power stroke -- even though they are actually bending very little.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsOtiVXsAE4uiU.jpg)
(https://archeryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/scythian1.png)
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Excellent info, thank you all for sharing. Now I’m wondering about proper mechanics. Organic_archer said “they’re shot instinctively from a floating anchor.” That seems to work pretty well. I also tried anchoring different parts of my wrist against my nose. After punching myself in the face a few times, I found something of a sweet spot, but I don’t know, does anyone have some suggestions?
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=45403.0
This is a really good post that discusses anchoring. Makes me want to get to work on a short bow!
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If the bow draws to 22” or more I can comfortably anchor by putting the farthest back thumb bone, the trapezium, on the corner of my mouth. My normal anchor is middle finger to corner of mouth, so it’s an easy adjustment!
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What country are you from, and whats up with a handle like HanibalLecter? The way you talk you should have won some gold metals for your country were ever that may be, and short bows with short power strokes are no match to longer bows with longer power strokes same weight as has been explained above.LOL
I'm from Canada. My user name is a reference to a song by an artist called "Quadrant" - Hannibal Lecter (Inner Smile RMX).
Although in general I agree with your assessment, it's a bit simplistic. Shorter bows are easier to get a good bow weight-draw weight ratio. Longer bows carry a lot of weight, and have too much mass to fire lighter arrows. Short bows can have a really, really heavy draw weight if you make them thick enough. You can also brace them really low to improve power cast -- or even do a Scythian-style reflex-deflex. Scythian bows were pretty short but had great power stroke -- even though they are actually bending very little.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsOtiVXsAE4uiU.jpg)
(https://archeryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/scythian1.png)
then you slap the heck out of your wrist.....anyway a Scythain bow wouldn't have been braced that low? Linking a funky design of hornbow isn't proving a short powerstroke is effective. How far is Lucas drawing here? Powerstroke is massively important as anybody who makes bows knows. If a short powerstroke is so effective on crossbows then why did the Chinese invent a crossbow with a long powerstoke eg. the trigger in the same place as rifle???? I've made some and know that they are in another league when compared to 'normal' crossbows.....same as a short bow and a long bow. Nothing changes powerstroke is key. If it doesn';t matter make a 20" bow, reflex it and see how well it performs....not very is the answer.
People often think short bows and light arrows are shooting faster than they actually are....a light arrow, even doing 200fps doesn't have much momentum. Try driving a nail with a stick....put a hammerhead on the stick.....see any difference??? Momentum :)
Anyway all this stuff has been worked out long,long ago. Check out old bow designs and make them for yourself. You will likely realize, through doing it yourself, what the factors involved in the design are.
Short bows/light arrows were 'normally' poison tipped to actually bring the animal down.
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Saxton Pope when testing museum sourced primitive bows, both self and sinew/horn , found that those in good condition shot very well if the draw was limited to 20-24 inches depending on the bow. Even the best preserved of those bows broke when drawn only an inch or so further.
Perhaps the American Indian and others had found that if they wished their bows to have a long service life a short draw was pretty much necessary.
When spanking new these bows might well have held up to a much longer draw length for several years but at the risk of failing at just the wrong moment.
One of the Bowyers Pope respected had told him that a average long bow bow drawn past 30 inches was 7/8th's broken. Not really sure what he meant by that.
Perhaps the best made long bows made from the best staves could handle the longest draw without a problem, but from the literature getting decent staves was a problem at times and quality dropped off the more bows that were ordered during war time.
Personally I've begun resisting the urge to draw my bows of 54 to 60 inch length past 28 inches.
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What country are you from, and whats up with a handle like HanibalLecter? The way you talk you should have won some gold metals for your country were ever that may be, and short bows with short power strokes are no match to longer bows with longer power strokes same weight as has been explained above.LOL
I'm from Canada. My user name is a reference to a song by an artist called "Quadrant" - Hannibal Lecter (Inner Smile RMX).
Although in general I agree with your assessment, it's a bit simplistic. Shorter bows are easier to get a good bow weight-draw weight ratio. Longer bows carry a lot of weight, and have too much mass to fire lighter arrows. Short bows can have a really, really heavy draw weight if you make them thick enough. You can also brace them really low to improve power cast -- or even do a Scythian-style reflex-deflex. Scythian bows were pretty short but had great power stroke -- even though they are actually bending very little.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsOtiVXsAE4uiU.jpg)
(https://archeryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/scythian1.png)
then you slap the heck out of your wrist.....anyway a Scythain bow wouldn't have been braced that low? Linking a funky design of hornbow isn't proving a short powerstroke is effective. How far is Lucas drawing here? Powerstroke is massively important as anybody who makes bows knows. If a short powerstroke is so effective on crossbows then why did the Chinese invent a crossbow with a long powerstoke eg. the trigger in the same place as rifle???? I've made some and know that they are in another league when compared to 'normal' crossbows.....same as a short bow and a long bow. Nothing changes powerstroke is key. If it doesn';t matter make a 20" bow, reflex it and see how well it performs....not very is the answer.
People often think short bows and light arrows are shooting faster than they actually are....a light arrow, even doing 200fps doesn't have much momentum. Try driving a nail with a stick....put a hammerhead on the stick.....see any difference??? Momentum :)
Anyway all this stuff has been worked out long,long ago. Check out old bow designs and make them for yourself. You will likely realize, through doing it yourself, what the factors involved in the design are.
Short bows/light arrows were 'normally' poison tipped to actually bring the animal down.
Great response bownarra. Complete with facts and why they are facts. Native Americans used short bows with short arrows to take Buffalo from horseback. Short distances and many arrows in the animal. They used what they had available and Made it work. It kept a people alive and well. On the opposite half of the country, the native Americans used what they had available and produced longer bows in the 5-6’ range for hunting and warfare on foot. Different resources, different bows. Different prey, different strategy. Different environment different needs. A 1:1 test for penetration would likely leave the longer bow with longer arrows on top. If you made the shorter arrows match the weight of the longer, the speed advantage goes away due to power stroke. As a compromise, you can get a full 28” draw out of a 56” bend through bow. 56” is pretty darn short and it’s gotta all be working. My draw is 26” at my normal anchor, and one of these days I’ll make a 52” EW style bow just to see how I’ll like it. 64-66” is my favorite to shoot all day with though.
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Terrible response, bownarra. Mentioned no facts and apparently forgot that the Chinese crossbows were Scythian bows. For hundreds of years the Chinese, Greek, Persian militaries were all basing their bows around the Scythian design.
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Shorter draw flight bows with light short arrows seem to have most flight records at the moment . I think. But the broadhead bows built for broadhead flight seem too be more favorable with being longer with longer draws. Now the Turkish bows with over draws on them with short arrows will get on out there ! Put a 28” arrow on the same bow pulled to the same length it’s a dog! It all depends on what your trying to achieve. Arvin
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Seems like most of the time, in societies that lived by the bow, shorter bows were designed for shooting from horseback or for tight quarters (Sheepeater bows come to mind). Nowadays, some people just enjoy short bows.
I really think it's as simple as that.
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20 inch draw bows take more skill to shoot,at least for me,,,at close range would have some advantage,,,
longer bows are great for some situations,,guess it depends on what you want to shoot,,, I like both and shoot both,,
both have advantages in certain situations,, :)
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This is pretty interesting... i think im a little lost on whether or not a short bow shoots faster... but i guess it all depends.
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a 20 inch power stroke can have ok cast, but as the power stroke gets longer, you usually can get better cast,,24 or 25 seems to be a happy medium for me,, when I test through the chrono,, there can be an increase in cast as I get out to 24 inches, I have had bows that draw 20 inchses shoot 150 fps with 10 gpp,, but as you know a longer draw can achieve 170 180 fps,, faster with really well designed bows,, thats just my experience with mostly straight tip bows,, but I have shot alot of 20 inch bows through a chrono ,, just to see what they can do,,,at close range 150fps with work great for deer,, if you were shooting a 60 or 70# bow at 20 inches for larger game,,or faster or further,, you would have to make up for the shorter power stroke with brute strengh, but thats ok if thats what you want,, ;D
so I think thats why you see the longer draws, easier to get better cast and not as much practice to shoot accurately as a shorter bow,, I am not saying the short bow is not accurate,, just might take more practice to achieve the desired accuracy,,,
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my love affair with 20" -22" draw length weapon systems ended when the big buck stopped at 25 or so yards, which was too far; I could have grabbed the doe with my bare hands, lol. I bring up the doe to state the fact that in areas with more deer and legal does, a shorter range weapon might make more sense.
Brad states the good and bad and ugly.
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That's a good point - also if we were hunting for survival in a pre-game law era. Of course, longer bows shoot great at short range, but they also require a bit more motion to draw.
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In states with multiple kills allowed, bucks and does, a tight blind with a shorter draw might be the proverbial ticket.
I have a knack for bringing the wrong bow to the fight, so I am settling on more length, 55 and up. I still can not see 69-70" working from a kneeling stance.
As an detour, I made a little 50 incher, 18" or so draw, 55#. Ok, so what...
I practiced holding arrows in the bow hand and shooting close, 10 yard close, like southwest Indians might do attacking a muzzle loading bunch of fellows, rapid reloading. That type of weapon had merit.
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Also a huge factor is that before all the white folks turned up with guns, deer etc would have been a whole load easier to get close to. Your short bow ain't so lacking when its no problem to get within 10 yards.
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I still can not see 69-70" working from a kneeling stance.
You might want to give it a try, if you haven't. I used to shoot my 72" ELB from a kneeling position all the time, no problem.
Also a huge factor is that before all the white folks turned up with guns, deer etc would have been a whole load easier to get close to. Your short bow ain't so lacking when its no problem to get within 10 yards.
That is a very good point. I doubt the critters were nearly as jumpy when there were a lot fewer people and there weren't guns going off all over.