Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: chasonhayes on February 05, 2022, 04:03:18 pm
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Please comment. Looking for suggestions to improve.
67" ntn
handle is shifted down 3/4" to help center the arrow.
2" wide at fade and for 15" then tapering to 3/8 at tip
last 6" of tip were left thick 5/8"
40# at 27"
2" string follow on bottom limb 1" on top limb
My observations is that I got impatient at the worst time after making little progress in tillering. I tried to follow the instructions in Traditional bowyers bible vol 1
I shot a homemade arrow at a card board box with good success. But not having done archery for 30 years has made me weak and I couldn't fully pull the bow back.
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It's bending too much at the fades. Don't pull it that far until you get more limb bending. I'd say it time to shorten up your tiller string. Make just long enough to fit tip to tip.
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What do you think about the shape of the bend and what should you do to correct it? I think you’re missing an understanding of the tillering process.
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I am definitely struggling with the tillering. I am having trouble seeing where it bends too much and where it's flat. Should I use a straight edge as a guide while it's on a tillering stick? How long can I safely leave it bent while marking areas to work?
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Im wondering why no one has said to make one of these yet!! http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61422.0.html
it's a tillering gizmo and probably one of the best tools you can have for learning to tiller a bow, especially a board bow. there super easy to make, so go make one and re-tiller your bow, :)
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"How long can I safely leave it bent while marking areas to work?" If you are drawing it back around say 15" or less, you have a lot more time to work with. Once you get closer to full draw, don't pull it back for more than a few seconds. That is a good time to snap a picture, or video it and freeze the frame at the longest draw so you can study it at your leisure.
I strongly second the gizmo suggestion!
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Excellent suggestion. I will make one tomorrow. Here is the latest tillering pic. Are the limbs moving better?
Braced at 3 7/8"
String pulled to 14"
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Put a x on the left fade and don’t remove it. Bending to much out of fades. Make a tillering gizmo. Developing a eye for tillering might take some time. The gizmo should help you get to where you have the bend you are looking for.
Bjrogg
PS when I look at a bow I’m tillering. I try not to look just at how it’s bending, but also to look at where it isn’t.
Where it isn’t. Where it’s limbs are still stiff and straight. That’s where you need to put pencil marks and scrap them off. That’s the wood that isn’t a bow
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Snap a picture and use mspaint or a similar program to help.
(https://www.diy.timetestedtools.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/HHB-72-Long-Bow-3-First-Full-draw-R-with-circle2.jpg)
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What BJ said!
I think what you are experiencing is the normal struggles of someone starting out. The more you get under your belt, the easier it will be for you, just learn from what’s happening. You should absolutely make a tillering gizmo! With the woods I commonly work with, I know at what thickness they start to bend and rough to approximately that thickness. Then I work the outer 2/3 of the limb first blending it in to the inner. The reason is that you can put a 2x4 on a tiller tree and it will bend if pulled hard enough, and most of that bend will be in the center. Since your staves will want to bend in the center naturally, it is good for me to encourage it to start bending in the outer 2/3 first. Don’t get overly frustrated, it will come and you will get there.
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Glad to see your still chugging along! Tillering gizmos are a godsend when your starting out. Heck, straightedges are a a gamechanger when your starting out! I would suggest on your next bow, make the fades work until you see the middle working. Man, your making me want to start making bows again!!!
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I really appreciate the suggestions.
I made the tillering gizmo and will give it a try in the next few days. Raining now and my tillering rack is outside. I will post a few more pics when I think that the tiller is better.
This bow is going to end up very light which is fine. It will be fun to shoot until I can make a better one. I have plenty of hickory haha. Each build teaches me something. After seeing my partially successful creations all 3 of my (grown) boys now want me to make them each a bow and arrow set and also the little boy down the street so I will be making these things for a while.
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That’s the right attitude. Learn what you can from every bow. Come in at your right weight will get easier as you gain experience and see how the wood behaves.
Right now I would rather see you end up under weight with a nice bend. Than at your intended weight and a poor bend.
Good luck and keep learning
Bjrogg
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The tillering gizmo is a miracle worker! enough said. I used it for about an hour today and worked on it about 20 times. Here is the latest pic. Appreciate comments.
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here is a pic with an ellipse drawn
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Here is the tillering as best as I can get it. Is it good enough to start some target shooting?
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Well from what I can see in the pic you have it drawn to 20 inches so I wouldn’t pull it all the way back. Another more important thing is the limbs aren’t bending the same distance. Left seems to bend further then the right. Also there is too much bend coming from the fade of the left limb. The right limb seems better but the issue is because it not bending the same amount it’s harder to tell. It can also be because I am using my phone so I have to scroll to see the whole picture.
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I am confused about something. If the outer part of the limbs are supposed to bend more than the inner part then won't the inner part be flatter? Wouldn't this cause the tillering gizmo to mark the inner part of the limb? Our should the gizmo only be used on the outer 2/3?
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I am confused about something. If the outer part of the limbs are supposed to bend more than the inner part then won't the inner part be flatter? Wouldn't this cause the tillering gizmo to mark the inner part of the limb? Our should the gizmo only be used on the outer 2/3?
I don’t understand your question. I personally don’t use the tillering gizmo. That being said I would t think it would effect anything if your limbs don’t have natural dips. Like knots and wiggles. Your bows seems relatively straight and even since it’s a board bow. However your main concern now should to be first get both limbs bending evenly. Having one weak limb weak throw you off as well as cause one limb to be more strained and take set. And don’t draw it to your goal weight till you do get it even. I think your tillering gizmo is working fine but what I believe may have happened since I don’t have a picture of the bow unstrung is either the bow has taken some set at the fade which will give it that look of bending too much there or it’s just maybe your not removing enough wood to make a Change. But this doesn’t mean you should start removing big chucks of wood at a time. It’s good to go slow just keep in mind it make a few scraping sessions to make it bend the way it should. And also pull the bow a lot to exercise the limbs and get the wood to take that wood removal.
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The gizmo doesn’t work just out of the fades. There are videos on YouTube that show how to use it. There are a couple different ways. You can set the pencil where it is just shy of touching on the deepest bend in the limb that is bending the most. Then use it on both limbs without adjusting the pencil. Another way that works well if you have a hinge or near hinge is to back it out till it isn’t touching at all and slowly move the pencil in while moving the gizmo up and down your limb. As soon as it starts to mark anywhere stop and work those areas in both limbs till it doesn’t mark anymore and repeat till the bend is even. Either way, set it (pencil depth) on the limb that is bending the most. You will find if you have one very stiff limb and one limb bending a lot that as you get the stiff limb to bend, the bend in the other will change. Those ways work well for me.
Good luck.
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The gizmo should mark the last few inches near both the tips and the handle, since those should usually bend a bit less than most of the limb. How much is a few inches? That depends...you can work with that to get the last few inches of movement, or leave them stiffer. However, if you get too much bend near the handle and get set there, it is amplified by the time you get to the tips. If you need a bit more draw length, think about perfecting the tiller to get it...and I would avoid those last few inches close to the handle while doing so. What is the draw weight at 20 inches?
Also, it is looking way better, so even if this one doesn't quite work out draw weight-wise, you will have a much better idea about how to tiller #7!
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I take what I said back your limb are definitely bending the same amount. I was looking with my phone and my eyes played tricks on me. On the computer now and I was wrong.
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I am confused about something. If the outer part of the limbs are supposed to bend more than the inner part then won't the inner part be flatter? Wouldn't this cause the tillering gizmo to mark the inner part of the limb? Our should the gizmo only be used on the outer 2/3?
I don't understand the question. Isn't your belly flat all the way? It may be the picture, but the left limb looks like it is narrow off the fade, then the thickness widens. (Not how wide the bow is but how thick) . When I make a bow the thickness tapers from the end of the fade to the tip unless the last few inches is meant to be stiff. How much taper depends on how the width types. If it's a straight taper, it will be more consistent than parallel, but either way it tapers. I have some dimensions to show what I mean. https://www.diy.timetestedtools.net/category/archery-equipment/wood-bow-making/bow-builds-with-dimensions/. There are definitely other ways, so maybe I didn't understand the question.
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I am confused about something. If the outer part of the limbs are supposed to bend more than the inner part then won't the inner part be flatter? Wouldn't this cause the tillering gizmo to mark the inner part of the limb? Our should the gizmo only be used on the outer 2/3?
Your thinking is correct. Part of the criticism of the gizmo is that it produces the same tiller shape regardless of width profile. That being said, if you use one it’ll at least get you a nice evening arc that should be fairly evenly strained.
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I am confused about something. If the outer part of the limbs are supposed to bend more than the inner part then won't the inner part be flatter? Wouldn't this cause the tillering gizmo to mark the inner part of the limb? Our should the gizmo only be used on the outer 2/3?
I don't understand the question. Isn't your belly flat all the way? It may be the picture, but the left limb looks like it is narrow off the fade, then the thickness widens. (Not how wide the bow is but how thick) . When I make a bow the thickness tapers from the end of the fade to the tip unless the last few inches is meant to be stiff. How much taper depends on how the width types. If it's a straight taper, it will be more consistent than parallel, but either way it tapers. I have some dimensions to show what I mean. https://www.diy.timetestedtools.net/category/archery-equipment/wood-bow-making/bow-builds-with-dimensions/. There are definitely other ways, so maybe I didn't understand the question.
1. Don W. Thanks for the link to your site. Quick question-TBB recommends a width of 1 3/4" for a hickory board but I see you made yours 1.42" can you educate me on the decision process for that?
2. Your eyes do not deceive you. On the right limb (top of the bow) there is a narrow part by 1/32" just out of the fades. I'm pretty sure that was where I accidentally gouged it with my spokeshave when shaping the fade.
3. It is not quite flat but goes from 5/8" out of the fades to 1/2"
4. Here is a pic unbraced. You can see the significant set the left (lower) limb.
5. pull weight at 20" is 30lbs
So I learned a ton and thanks so much for all your patience with my ignorant questions. I finally have a concept of tillering. The more I learn the more I realize how much more there is to learn. So is this bow ready for kindling or is it salvageable? I am happy to start #7 with what I learned, I have no attachments to this one at all, but if there is more to be learned from it before I trash it I would like to try.
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to answer question #1. There would be three reasons for a narrower bow I built. I've been working to improve performance and trying to come to grasp with the mass principle. So I will do final tillering using the chronograph. Narrowing the bow looses mass quicker with less draw weight loose. Of course the last bow i made became firewood because i narrowed it to much and it crystalized. I still have a lot to learn.
The second and more important reason, it may have been all i had left in the stave i was using.
the third and less important is I tend to like the looks of a narrower bow, although i understand that may not produce the best results, so I try to find the best trade off.
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You’ve got the right attitude chase. Keep learning. Keep listening. Many times you might get different answers as we all do things a little differently.
I would say you could do whatever you like with that bow. It’s probably not going to be your perfect bow, but it might still have something to teach you.
I’m just looking on my phone, but I think I can see where most of the set was right out of the left fade. That’s a pretty common mistake.
How far are you from your intended draw weight and length?
It could be a good opportunity for you to practice getting to your weight and draw.
I think it was Badger I first heard say. Never think of it as I just need to remove a few lbs. Think of it as “I just have a few lbs to perfect my tiller.
Bjrogg