Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: superdav95 on March 06, 2022, 01:51:21 am
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So I decided to do more testing and tweaking of my bamboo bows while I’m waiting for my horn bow to dry.
This bow is a typical 5 piece Asiatic style bamboo bow with extra added little peice on top of the handle section making it a 6 piece technically. It was built with the belly and back having the power fibers of the bamboo exposed. Not sure if this will work or not in the end but we shall see it’s fun to experiment. It’s about 57” long and is 6 pieces glued together which will then be wrapped with thread or linen at the glue joints. Each bamboo strip was ground to approx thickness of .200”. So total thickness at the height of the crown on both sides is approx .400”. Each limb is 24” long and approx 1 5/8” wide. Each limb strip was lightly heat treated to rid the excess moisture and lighten up and strengthen the limbs. The levers are maple as well as the handle. I used ea40 to do glue up of the bamboo strips and induced some slight reflex. This thing is only roughed out so far and some more weight needs to come off the levers and scraping of belly for tiller for more weight reduction. That said it currently only weight 481 grams. I’m guessing it will be around under 400 grams when finished. If it survives tillering it will be a fast bow I think as it will have the benefits of good tension and good compression of the power fibers of the bamboo. After heat treatment the bamboo added a bunch of strength and became lighter. I’ve had to tweak this heat treatment process to get it right after breaking several of these bamboo bows so here’s to hoping it works this time. I’ll post a few pics of the build and bow as it sits now.
Thanks for looking
Cheers.
Dave
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More pics…
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Cool stuff :)
Just be careful about those handle pieces. They will 'pop off' like that. They may be ok if you wrap them. Ideally on this sort of bow you would want the handle piece/s inbetween the 2 boo strips. like a glass bow riser - the riser is a big powerlam and no glue joints will ever fail. The problem is that you have to prep the riser properly...true feather edge fades, and very good taper rate, no thicker than 1/8" 1 inch from the tips.
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Cool stuff :)
Just be careful about those handle pieces. They will 'pop off' like that. They may be ok if you wrap them. Ideally on this sort of bow you would want the handle piece/s inbetween the 2 boo strips. like a glass bow riser - the riser is a big powerlam and no glue joints will ever fail. The problem is that you have to prep the riser properly...true feather edge fades, and very good taper rate, no thicker than 1/8" 1 inch from the tips.
Thanks man. It’s a neat and weird little experiment anyway. It’s just a test bow so I just used high heat hot melt glue to glue on handle so that I can reverse it quickly and change up my tapers on the new limbs. The final product will likley have it glued up with a lam riser in between the lams like you say. Thanks for the tips on this. Have you ever tried an Asiatic style bow like this with outer fibers of bamboo on both side of the limbs? I’m going to try scraping the belly to fine tune tiller and see how it goes. I’m just not sure if on compression the boo will take me scraping it on the belly side when stressed. My thoughts are that if I get the taper correct like you say I would only have to do a little side tillering without touching the belly much at all for better results. Do you have experience with something like this?
Cheers
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I'm following your experiment...it looks like it would have a very heavy draw right now. Very cool... :OK
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I'm following your experiment...it looks like it would have a very heavy draw right now. Very cool... :OK
Thanks. It would be nice if it survives. Ya it’s quite heavy in draw right now. I’ll get to scraping belly and narrow up the limbs bit more before bending too much. I’ll post results good or bad of what I find.
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I will be anxious to see how much limb reflex you lose when you are finished tilllering ,and hitting poundage at you draw length.
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Well I got part way thru tiller and got it braced at about 5.5-6” at which point I heard a pop! I’ll post a couple pics but looks like the failure may have been due to my over toasting the top boo lam a bit. Under the lift it looks pretty dark and brittle. I had it rolled out to only 21” so still had a ways to go and it was at 48lbs draw. I’m guessing that it’s a failure of the top strip or and a combination of a few things on my part. The other thing I think may have contributed to this is no wraps either at the handle. Also the hot melt glue I used for purposes of reversible nature of it and swapping out different limbs may have failed. My hunch however is that this is a simple failure of that particular slat of boo. The reason I say this is that after making about 20 of these little bows over the past year this is the first time I’ve seen a failure like this at the handle. The hot melt glue I use for these test bows is quite strong. Surprisingly strong. Obviously I never shoot these with out wraps on the glued sections for safety but often I would brace them up for some final scraping and them wrap them. I wonder that maybe the reason it popped off a lift like this at the handle when braced and not when on the tiller tree is that it’s being held at brace for a longer timeframe then when pulling on the tree and releasing almost instantly. Other failures that I’ve seen in these bows have mostly been splits in the limbs running with the grain. I believe due to over heating the boo and making it brittle. It’s a fine balance heat harden bamboo and rid a lot of the moisture without going too far. If done right though you can end up with a good little quick bow. Prior to the failure on this little bow it seemed like it was going to survive and hold up. It lost about half of the induced reflex as seen from the pics. I’m gonna keep at this concept and try what mike said and taper the strips out to the tips to a thickness of 1/8”.
Here’s a few pics of where it failed.
Let me know what you think and your theory’s as to
Why it failed.
Cheers
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sorry to see that. I hope that you can figure the break out and reuse most of the parts.
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That is were they will let go. I have broken a few limbs off in the same place right in front of the riser. Though the side profile of your bow looks really nice you can only reflex a bamboo slat , so far before it takes a lot of set, or lets go. Sinewing the back may, or may not help. I never tried one that way.
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So update. I did an autopsy of this bow and discovered the reason. It was my mistake not the wood in this case the top boo strip that failed. I had filed down the top sections of the limbs at where they meet up at the handle to place the top piece onto violated the top limb integrity and it popped off.
So in the end my mistake and will not make that mistake again.
Here’s a pic of where it pulled up
Cheers
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cool beans...that's an easy mistake to make and an easy fix. Looking forward to the next one. Thanks!
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Update on this little bow. I made new set of limbs and tapered thicknesses towards the tips. I measured as carefully as I could and measured every 2” along each slat of boo. Glue up and put about 2-3” reflex induced glue up. Used stretched bicycle tubes to hold together on glue up. The problem I noticed with using tubes is that it introduced a bit of twist. I had to shim and straighten them up and then we’re fine. Assembly was hot glue method as before. Tillered to about 26” then put a thing on it. It’s about 45lbs. Brace was still low at around 5 3/4” from string to belly at deepest spot. I then did a few more scrapes and sanding to fine tune the tiller. It all went pretty fast. I still had to remove more then I wanted from the belly in scrapes. I lost about half of the reflex as expected so far. Have a look here a few pics. More to come…
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Sorry forgot to mention. It weighs 450grams at the moment which will likley end up around 400grams when I thin down the and shape the siyahs. Gonna wrap it tomorrow and shoot it a bit and post another update.
Thanks for looking
Cheers
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It looks great. congrats. It's pretty amazing how thin the limbs need to be for 45#. Looking forward to the rest of the build and shooting results.
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Thanks bob. I think it will be good. Ya it’s surprisingly thin. I kept the oval round shape on the belly and back to keep with shape of the boo. I toasted the slats as before prior to glue up.
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Lesson learned :) Yes it was always going to fail there. Don't reduce the back boo at all. It you want a piece on the back like that either glue a piece of cork or leather strips on. I'm glad you've got a shooter out of it anyway :)
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Update on this little bow. All said and done it ended up at 39-40lbs at 28” after sanding up and smoothing out the file marks and cleaning up. Did the wraps and put a couple coats of tung oil on the belly and tips. Total weight of bow is 433grams. The length is 57” ttt. Didn’t get a chance to shoot it. We had nasty snowy weather up here. Didn’t feel like getting my chrono wet. I’ll post some speeds next week.
Lessons learned for sure indeed. All experiences for the next one.
Cheers thanks for looking
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Congrats on bow! I still can't believe that you could get a bamboo back and belly, on limbs that short, down to such a light draw weight. It seems that you were just one thin center lam away from a heavy hunting weight, or maybe just remove less of the bamboo during tillering? If you can find some proper arrows for the bow it will likely shoot very well. :OK
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Thanks bob. My thought exactly! I figure the next one I’ll leave it at 50lbs plus tillered and then clean up and finish and be about right. When the limbs are this thin a few scrapes go a long way. Don’t think I dare to go any shorter on the bow but will likley do another like this one then call it experiment done. The next test bow will be using a single slat lam heat curved into c shape so the belly had the outer bark power fibers of the boo and add sinew to the softer back. I can just imagine the weight and speed of that bow. So basically a horn bow with no horn. Just toasted belly boo and sinew. Should be interesting anyway.
Thanks for looking.
Cheers
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cool... I'm looking forward to both builds. thanks.
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Still blowing snow here to get the chrono out but did put about 12 shots through it and it shoot very good. Seems pretty quick but will get numbers posted soon. Here’s a full draw pic of bow for now anyway.
Thanks for looking
Cheers
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Job well done. Looks good. They shoot heavier arrows very well also. Handy compact bow to hunt with, and an easy build.
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Job well done. Looks good. They shoot heavier arrows very well also. Handy compact bow to hunt with, and an easy build.
Thanks bassman
They are pretty cool little bows. Gonna make some more of these for sure.
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I like it Dave.
That turned out pretty cool.
I’ll certainly be watching for the next one.
Bjrogg
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I like it Dave.
That turned out pretty cool.
I’ll certainly be watching for the next one.
Bjrogg
Thanks man!
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Sweet bow :) Glad it turned out well for you :)
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Sweet bow :) Glad it turned out well for you :)
Thanks man. Easy and fun build to pass the time.
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Did a quick video of me shooting this bow. It shoots very well. Compared to to my 40-45lbs bows of this style this one is quicker which I expected it to be. The 45lb bow I made last year to compare with this one is similar dimensions in fact I used the same string when testing them both today. We have really high humidity as everything is melting at 6 degrees and 80% humidity! Good old Ontario goes from one extreme to the next. As a result my speeds are slower then they would normally be I think. The arrows I was shooting are 400grains. The bow is 39lbs draw at full draw 28”. So pretty close to 10gpp or just over that. The speeds were fairly consistent at around 181fps as seen in short video clip. I also took a side view shot for profile look. I believe the speeds will be faster in less humidity for sure but still very happy with this. The shoot ability is quite good compared to the other bows of this style. Less thump in the hand and smoother shooting. Unstringing the bow and it came right back to prestrung profile. The weight of this bow is very light at 433grams for a bow the is 57”ntn! The other 45lb bow at 548grams same length. I think this accounts for the smoothness improvement and speed increase as there is less mass to move. It was a fun build. My next one will be a little heavier draw then this one although I’d hunt with this bow without issue at all.
Anyway thanks for checking it out stay tuned for the next one…
Enjoy the videos
https://photos.app.goo.gl/R3ZWUkivFhKS9NwQ8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1sXmUE7JkPCuqTGJ9
Cheers
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180fps @ 10gpp ain't half bad....;)
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Not too shabby Dave.Glad to see it came to a really good conclusion for ya.You've got a blue print now for the next one.
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Dave I noticed that the bow laying across the chair in your video has rather straight limbs now. That is the way mine normally turn out. They still shoot great with that profile. I am curious to see how much harder your horn bow will shoot when finished. Enjoyed you videos. Make one for your horn bow when it is finished.
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Dave I noticed that the bow laying across the chair in your video has rather straight limbs now. That is the way mine normally turn out. They still shoot great with that profile. I am curious to see how much harder your horn bow will shoot when finished. Enjoyed you videos. Make one for your horn bow when it is finished.
Bassman. Thanks. Yes that one that is laying across the chair there was one I made last year the 45lb bow I compared this build to. Similar length and basic design but the profile and angle that the limbs were set at were different from the start. I set that particular bow pretty straight to begin with and it didn’t have much reflex prior to at all. It was pretty straight really. I had put maybe a 1/2”-1” reflex in the limbs when heat treated but lost around half. It still has a slight reflex but mostly straight. I found that by doing that I would end up with a straight or slight reflex bow either way and not have deflex limbs as some of my first few did. Speed was the main difference once I did that. Shoot ability was about the same. I did a post last year detailing some of my findings and with the heat treatment incorporated the difference was rather surprising in some cases more then 20 plus fps increase. One of these days I’ll do a write up and some pics for a proper build along on one of these if there is interest. The horn bow will hopefully survive ok and get to the point of being able to shoot it. That would be nice. It’s drying at the moment and will get it’s second layer of sinew next week. I’m hoping speeds will be good with it and suspect it will. So much can happen still with this horn bow build that it’s still anyones guess at this point. Still early. Up to this point the build has need good and no major surprises. The tests of my abilities are yet to come with this one I think. Cheers and thanks for looking.
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I made another one of these little test bows. I’ve sinewed the back on this one and gonna just let it dry. Did one solid layer on each limb of 25gr each. I plan to put a hog gut skin on it once dried for a couple weeks. Same dimensions otherwise as the others of this style. Pre sinew weight on this one was at 408gr. It will be interesting to see if better results compared to the others.
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Nice looking bow.Your sinew work is looking great.
Never done the hog casing thing on bows yet.It would look cool though.I think before putting it on though a thorough cleaning of all oils and such will have to be removed.Inside and out.I suppose dawn to the rescue here.Good luck with that.
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Thanks Ed. Good advise. Will do.
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Update on a new build of this style of bamboo bow. Not really sure what to call these other then a self laminated bamboo bow maybe…. Anyway… here a few pics of new build which is a complete ea40 glue up with integrated power lam for handle and limb tips for offer more surface area for glue up of v notch for siyahs into top (outer) lam. The power lams and Siyahs are black walnut I had left over from a different project. Other then that it’s pretty similar dimensions is other two in the pic. I had to make a bunch of little 2” concave sections of scrap bamboo lined with leather to get clamp tight enough to ensure tight glue lines. I’ll make an inflatable laminated press one day but for now this worked. I just clamped it every 2-3” or so. Glue up seemed to go fine. I put a small section of Buffalo horn on the handle section for asthetics. I’ll clean it up bit more and post some results.
You can see the difference in reflex of the three bows. The bottom one is the first successful test subject of the self laminated boo and the middle is the new build I just finished glueing up. Still has green tape on it. The top one is the sinewed version I posted pics of earlier in this post. It still has some drying to do. I had a string on there for about 3-4 weeks while it dried. I’m happy with the amount of reflex the sinew held.
Thanks for following along
Sorry first pic is upside down! You get the idea…
Cheers
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More pics…
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wow... just wow. :) That sinew backed version looks like you might need one of those stringing jigs to get a string on it. It also looks like a rocket launcher. It will be fun to see them strung, tillered, and shooting side by side. Well done! :OK
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wow... just wow. :) That sinew backed version looks like you might need one of those stringing jigs to get a string on it. It also looks like a rocket launcher. It will be fun to see them strung, tillered, and shooting side by side. Well done! :OK
Thankyou sir. I’m hoping for good things for the sinew backed one based on my positive results with the first one. It will take a little more effort to get strung up I believe.
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So my quest continues with these little bows…. I tillered out and shot in the new one I was working on that incorporated black walnut power lam for the handle with matching black walnut siyahs. Dimensions are the same pretty well between these three test bows. I was very pleased with my results with the 39lb bow. I was surprised at the speed of high 170’s to a top speed of 181fps at just over 10gpp arrow. So, I shot in this new one the same way and it tillered out to 45lbs at 28” draw. I was hoping for around 48 but there’s always the next one. I get 48lbs if I draw out to 29.5-30” which is fine by me. My speeds were faster being 5 pounds heavier draw as expected. But I did not expect speeds of 185, 187, 189fps. 189 was my fastest reading and had hard time getting readings today with sun I think but was able to get a few. Using the same 400grain arrows as used with last bow. So at 8.88gpp is pretty respectable I think. I’m sure speeds could be little faster even still if I get the bow warmed up good and draw out the 29-30”. Pretty happy with this little bow. Still waiting if the sinew version to dry and cure before I compare all three head to head.
Here’s a quick video clip of me shooting this new bow
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KLC28Mpd7dvaN1Y7A
Cheers and thanks for looking
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Excellent set of bows you've got there with A+ performance from them.
Personally I like the extra draw length option while shooting.It can really get a person to bear down and shoot better.
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congrats on all of the nice bows, but I especially like the refined look of the latest bow. It's almost scary to see the siyahs attached without the wraps, but I really like that look and it shows you know how to join them properly. The grip and riser blend well too. It looks and shoots great. :OK
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Thanks fellas. Very nice.
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So I’ve been experimenting with a unique finish for this last little boo bow and came up with this after some testing. I used titebond 3 and applied it much the same way you would with rawhide or snake skin. I did not soak or dampen the leaves prior to applying which would be the main difference. I used a generous amount of glue and then placed the dead leaves in a random pattern and then wrapped with strums of cloth. Bed sheet material works good. Then I wrapped this with bicycle inner tube stretched tight. I then let it dry for about 30mins then unwrapped it. I worked out any minor issues with bubbles air holes and raised spots by rolling my finger on the spots to get it to stick down. After about an hour of air dry I gave it two light coats of glue with my finger. I had wiped a small amount of green and light brown leather dye on the limb before hand as a base Color. I’ll spray with a Matt finish or use some Matt spar urethane or something after a day of drying. I did some bend testing on this test limb to see if I could see any cracking or lifting and all good 😊 Time will tell. The titebond 3 will offer some weather proofing protection and the leaves will blend in with late fall hardwood forest floor. Only problem is if you drop your bow you may not find it again. Lol. Let me know what you think guys.
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I like the look...it would be interesting to see how much weight it added and what the effect was on cast...and then how well it hold's up after lots of bending/shooting. Great idea. :OK
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Thanks man. Ya I think time will tell on this. The leaves were not so brittle that they broke apart on me when wrapping them on the limb. I saturated them with lots of glue then skimmed off the excess. I’ll measure the weight when applying it to the actual bow and see what difference if any it makes. Should be interesting anyway. Thanks for looking.
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So I decided to go for on the bow after testing the idea out on a old test piece. It turned out good I think. It added about 12 grams weight after all the coats of glue and a couple coats of spar urethane. In a couple days I’ll string it up and shoot it to see how it does. Let me know what you guys think of this. Just something I’ve wanted to try for a while.
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That was fast...I always wait a week or two before spraying finish just to make sure the glue and other materials are completely dry. I hope this works like you want, and can't wait to hear/see the results. It does look good. :OK
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Thanks bob. The titebond 3 dried overnight for me and then I laid it out in the sun for the day before applying the spar. I find that titebond dries pretty well for me in a day or so. Gonna let that dry a few days and should be good. It’s dry to the touch now but it takes longer to dry throughly. I may apply a Matt finish spray when it’s done drying I’ll wait and see. I’ll get it strung up then and fling some arrows through it and post results.
Thanks for looking
Cheers
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Got some good weather and shot this bow after a number of days drying. It hasn’t lost anything for speed and the leaf camo backing held up. Shot it about 60 times today and drew it out to about 29.5”. At that drawlength it shot 191fps. Using the same 400 grain arrow from previous tests. Pretty happy with that for this bow. At 28” draw it shot consistently mid 180’s. Has two duplicate reading at 184 at 27”-28” draw. Readings in the range of 185-187 but conservatively I would say 184fps at 28” draw. Just going by feel. the first pic is me drawing to about 27.5-28”. The second pic is to about 29-30” roughly. At this draw I got speed of 191fps. Draw weight at 29” was 47.2lbs. Still not too shabby. So my concern was the backing staying together. Well so far so good I guess time will tell. After several dozen shots today no noticeable damage or change to the leaves that I could tell. So I’ll call this a success on two fronts. First the design and performance and second the dead leaf camo backing experiment. I do think next one I’ll use smaller leaves so as to get mostly entire leaves on the bow to look little better I think. Still happy with it. As far as the belly goes it’s got 8 layers of true oil after the initial first layer of tung oil coating. Each session sanded with 600 grit and applied with my finger. After last layer dried for couple days I hit it with toothpaste and polished entire belly surface to give it depth. Turned out just the way I hoped. Thanks for looking.
Here’s a few videos of me shooting this bow. Enjoy and thanks for looking!
This vid I drew out to around 29-30” to get 191fps
https://photos.app.goo.gl/izgRaYwXDUi5VrDC6
Thes vids are at 27-28” draw for 184fps
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Bzj11qHLCY61J1hX6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AW3eYg9PS9tzNxyH9
Cheers
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More pics…
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Very nice! tiller looks very good, too . good numbers!
I have to try this kind of decoration - looks great - perfect for autumn
Thanx for showing us.
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Excellent imagination of the native colors as a theme on your bow.Reminds me of the feather backed bows from the past.They were beautiful too.
It does'nt surprise me of no performance reduction with the leaves on there.Bows with shorter limbs are not influenced by that much with that.Good work showing of your testing.Having a spotter along side keeps things legitimate.
Basically your shooting approximately a 9 grain arrow @ 28".Less yet @ 30".Still very good numbers.
Definitely a successful adventure you took here.Beautiful bows.
There's 2 parts IMO about making bows.Much like carpentry building houses.
The set up and the finish.
With bows the set up is the design and tlllering.The finish is the bling and finish put on after shooting it in.
With carpentry the set up is base or frame up and basic lay out.Then it's the inside and outside finish work.
There are good set up people and good finish people.Some better at one more than another.
IMO you excell in both these catagories.
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Very nice! tiller looks very good, too . good numbers!
I have to try this kind of decoration - looks great - perfect for autumn
Thanx for showing us.
Backtowood. Thanks for your kind words. I was quite happy with the numbers on these test bows. I’ll definitely be making more. I’ve still got the sinewed version waiting to compare numbers with in a couple more months so it should neat to compare. Thanks for looking.
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Excellent imagination of the native colors as a theme on your bow.Reminds me of the feather backed bows from the past.They were beautiful too.
It does'nt surprise me of no performance reduction with the leaves on there.Bows with shorter limbs are not influenced by that much with that.Good work showing of your testing.Having a spotter along side keeps things legitimate.
Basically your shooting approximately a 9 grain arrow @ 28".Less yet @ 30".Still very good numbers.
Definitely a successful adventure you took here.Beautiful bows.
There's 2 parts IMO about making bows.Much like carpentry building houses.
The set up and the finish.
With bows the set up is the design and tlllering.The finish is the bling and finish put on after shooting it in.
With carpentry the set up is base or frame up and basic lay out.Then it's the inside and outside finish work.
There are good set up people and good finish people.Some better at one more than another.
IMO you excell in both these catagories.
Wow. What a generous compliment Ed. Especially coming from you. Your work is admired by all here and look up to you as a well of knowledge. Thanks for the kind words. I do love the entire process. There’s just something about bows that has captivated me. My dear wife laughs at me for my obsession with bows and can’t understand it. It’s a great outlet for a lot of us. Therapy if you will…. Thanks again!
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Visa/verca.
Building bows close to the edge but durable are not for the faint of heart.
Robin understands my obsession as she has some of her own.Plus she has a good eye to cross check my work.
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Yes I agree. for sure my wife has been a good eye and second opinion on my bows and on this bow in particular for me as an objective opinion. It’s nice to have good feedback that’s honest and and can give you the straight goods. Thanks again.
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Cool builds Dave . I enjoyed the the thread on the bows . Good speed also!
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Cool builds Dave . I enjoyed the the thread on the bows . Good speed also!
Thanks selfbowman! Gonna get the sinewed version finished up here in the next couple weeks and compare them all head to head. Sort of. They are all similar draw weights but ended up varied. I just finished I putting a hog gut covering on my sinewed version of this bow and letting it dry a week or so. Should be interesting to see how it does.
Thanks for looking.
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Interesting....Now that hog gut covering does'nt go over the belly too as it is a tube from an intestine does it?
Maybe just the lining of the hog gut????
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Interesting....Now that hog gut covering does'nt go over the belly too as it is a tube from an intestine does it?
Maybe just the lining of the hog gut????
Not the belly. Just layers of hog intestine actually that gets cleaned, dried and spread out like sheet of paper in layers. I picture it like they open it up along one side and spread it out so it’s no longer a tube. The covering I decided to go with as a protective layer on this bow was 4 layers. It’s quite thin as you can imagine and weights hardly anything at all. I didn’t find it added any sinew effect of any poundage to a bow but it’s a neat protective backing for a bow or in this case sinew covering. I follow with a couple layers of titebond 3 applied with my finder to work it in after a few days drying. This will help water proof it a bit too. I suspect I’ll do more of these backings as it’s a neat effect especially with the little textured look it has. It take stain very well too which is nice. Gives it a depth and translucency to the surface. Thanks for looking. Cheers. Cool builds Dave . I enjoyed the the thread on the bows . Good speed also!
Thanks selfbowman! Gonna get the sinewed version finished up here in the next couple weeks and compare them all head to head. Sort of. They are all similar draw weights but ended up varied. I just finished I putting a hog gut covering on my sinewed version of this bow and letting it dry a week or so. Should be interesting to see how it does.
Thanks for looking.
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Got this little sinewed version braced today. It did not tiller well for me. I think I went wrong on trying to tiller this bow the same way I would with a all wood bow. I tried to get it looking good early on in its pulls and got too hung up on perfection and before I knew it I had a 25-30lb bow. It had a very pronounced c shape when I started bending it and warming it up getting things moving. I believe I removed too much belly wood too early on in the process trying to get things perfect. Oh well lesson learned. It’s still a sweet little 25-30lb bow albeit sinewed and highly reflexed. It’s like a race car with a chevett engine. It looks fast but it ain’t. I guess it’s fast for a 25lb bow. It shoots nice for a kids bow I quess. My goal was 50lbs with this bow. Just a little off! Anyways here a couple pics. I’ll do less removal for the next one.
Cheers and thanks for looking.
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Sorry to hear this Dave.I feel your disapppointment,but it did not break and that's good too knowing your glueing application process was good.The bow making bug bite is highly ingrained and I'm sure the wheels of ideas will turn into more attempts.
What process is it that you do to get a bow to brace?
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Thanks Ed. It’s a different animal for me in getting to brace which is likley where the problems start for me. There is so much reflex that my tiller tree set up won’t work and I do not have a leg board made yet. So my way of getting to brace was to slowly start bending both limbs together towards me with the handle against my knee. I figured this would work as I could see the bend was equal for both sides. I think I got too hung up on the getting both limbs to look the same and removed too much belly wood. My hope was to remove none but the bend was so uneven that I didn’t feel like it was gonna get to brace. For my next one I’m definitely gonna use a peg board. I feel like it should still be possible to get a bow of this type braced by the method I used but the learning curve involves messing up a few first. I’m not sure on that.
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That's too bad. Tillering by material removal is just not the best option for a bamboo belly. How far off was it in tiller? Most would brace by placing their knees on the midlimbs rather than the handle.
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That's too bad. Tillering by material removal is just not the best option for a bamboo belly. How far off was it in tiller? Most would brace by placing their knees on the midlimbs rather than the handle.
Pat. It was off enough that I didn’t feel like I could get it braced otherwise. I did try to bend it a bit at mid limbs too but in hindsight maybe I should have used some light radiant heat to loosen up slightly perhaps instead of removal of belly wood. That may have been the better option I’m not sure. What prevented me trying that was that there is no horn on this bow. Just bamboo and sinew. I wasn’t confident that this would work out too well so I abandoned the thought at the time and went with removal. The bow acted as though I had uneven sinew laid on the limbs the way it was bending for me. It seemed the inner of the one limb was much stronger on the one side which caused me to scrape to get the other side as even as I could. Removal of inner limb is risky to say the least especially with these little bows. Clearly I went too far. Question for anyone out there… any thoughts on tillering and finishing the bending of a bamboo bow of this type first to just beyond brace then applying sinew??? This would certainly eliminate some of the issues I had with this bow. I could be wrong on that but my thinking is that by getting the outlets close at brace with even bend I could focus on very even layering of sinew on inner and mid limbs where I want the strength to be. I’ll try another one here soon and learn from this one regardless.
Thanks for looking and joining me on this journey.
Dave
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In the past making my version of horn bows [1 piece bow] bringing the wood bow [core] to brace and alignment without stressing wood before horn application and sinewing I know helped.The pre taper of this core then would transfer the bend yet properly and with putting a taper on the horn too before applying it and an even layer of sinew applied.I'm sure that pretiller method would work with your bamboo/sinew version also.
After successfully making a bow then I took note of thickness's of limbs/thickness's of components for future bows to come within my draw weight that I wanted on future bows.Cutting down the time of tillering to a minimum.Especially after I made a peg board to get it to brace.
I think we've discussed this before in the past and it leads to more fuel in the fire to attempt more future bows and it's a good note.
I might note here my version of horn bows do not stress the horn or sinew to it's abilities that it could do.Too long of working limbs compared to actual Turkish style horn bows made.Still my version with excessive reflex shot arrows exceedingly well.
Your version of bamboo/sinew bows I think it would be appropriate to make them in this way with excellent results.
To note here getting Adam Karpowizs' book on turkish horn bows gave more insight.You may have that book too I'm not sure.
On threads in the past of mine making my version of horn bows I've shown the tillering process on the peg board.
For overall excellent speed on these bows cutting down the working length of these bows whether they be horn bows or self bows gives positive results.
You are correct in saying these sinewed horn bows are a completely different animal [like it's alive] than self bows.I'm still always amazed by what these composites will do on a bow.
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You know Ed I think it’s very interesting to me how the process works and to me it’s part of the challenge. I do appreciate your comments and others here as well. A wealth of knowledge. I’m getting there slowly but surely. I think a peg board is in order and getting pre tiller fine tuned as you say before sinew might be the ticket. These little bows are only 56-58” ntn. Are are quite good shooters given the size. They give decent draw length as well for good power stroke. For being all wood the mass was also very low. Mainly under a pound for finished bow. The horn bellied version I made of these little bows had extra mass but still shot well. Not as fast I think partly due to the mass but still a fine shooter. The thing I like about these bows and your horn/ sinew bows is that they are still practical. I feel like some of the composite horn sinew bows out there although fast flight bows are not practical at all. They need to be warmed up or worked in and put in a jig or peg board or take two people just to get it strung up. Nothing against anyone who makes these bows as they are amazing achievements but the bows I like to make are practical compromises of these bows I guess. I want to be able to string up my bow with ease and be ready to go and shoot. Similar to the ease of a long bow but with some of the benefits of the composites. It’s a balance and a compromise in my view. I see this in your bows as well. You could take things closer to the edge of better performance but you don't because you know that if you do you would lose something in practical end and so it seems deliberate and intentional. Going to the edge of performance may be necessary even to know where that line is just so that we can back off a bit to maintain the other properties we want I guess. Either way it’s an awesome journey to say the least and I’m enjoying it. Thanks again Ed.
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Well said Dave.I can see these type bows have imprinted onto you in the same way as me.When I showed my bows in the past I stated those exact intentions.A practical well performing/long time durable version of a hunting bow.
The dynamics of natural materials I might add out perform FG versions which was my intentions to show also.They may take longer to make but well worth the effort.
It's one of the true definitions of enjoying the journey in making bows.
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So true! I have several fg bows and speed tested some of them to shoot against my bows and the all wood bows are as fast or faster as far as chrono is concerned. My buddies come over and can’t believe it. Using the gpp arrow measurements for speed/ weight comparisons I’ve found the same thing as well as you have. The gpp arrow speed is often better on my bows then my fg bows. The drawback with the fg bows is the added mass. Fg makes for a very durable bow for sure but similar durability can be achieved with patience and planning using all wood and natural materials too. Like you said it takes little longer. You nailed it on the head you said you want well performing long time durability for hunting purposes. That’s what I’m after too.
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I'm kinda an odd ball with this archery stuff.Did'nt start shooting or making till 2009.Never shot any other kind of bow before that.
The appeal of going down into the bottom or along the ridge and getting material for a bow and arrow stuck with me.
I do need to get a supply of good bamboo one of these days too.
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Ya for sure. Bamboo is neat stuff. It heat treats very well too which surprised me. Let me know if you want a couple limb pieces to monkey around with. I have a supplier in Toronto I get mosso boo from it comes in long 5” diameter poles. The trick is to get the moisture out of it without cracking it all to heck. I finally figured it out and got a system that works. Let me know if you want couple pieces to try.
Cheers
Dave
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I decided to put Buffalo horn on the belly of this bow to stiffen her up. I figured why not try it. Gonna wait a week for the glue to dry up on these limbs. Here’s a couple pics. More to come next week.
Cheers
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That'll beef up the poundage that's for sure.Help you keep reflex too.
I did some self research some time ago on getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn in the build-a-long thread.
All replies are informative but to the meat of the research comment #28 shows the poundage I got from different thickness's of horn.
Comments in the #30's to lower #40's tell a bit more too.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,42181.0.html
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Wow that’s great info Ed. Thanks for that. I’ll have to measure my horn thicknesses to make some records. It feels stronger now and I also tapered the horn towards the tips. I’ll measure horn thickness tomorrow. They were identical strips that were heat curved the same profile for each prior to glue up. I had to flatten the bellies of the bow limbs to get glue up done. All went well I think. I think I’ll make a peg board Monday to get ready to start bending again. Fingers crossed…
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You should like that peg board.Different sets of holes can be put into it for different lengths of bows.
That info was just something I kept track of years ago along my journey.Thought it would and was helpful at the time.With longer bows [above 62"] after horn is applied they can go narrower than also because of the density.
The more percentage of horn on a bow makes it more elastic.Seemingly less stable but once settled in it stabilizes as I'm sure you've noticed.
The more wood the more stable of course.
I'd treat bamboo the same as wood for stability.
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Tick…tick…. Bang! This little bow is done! Oh well. Turned out to be bad section of horn. Take a look at the break. You can see some lighter inclusions. When I shaped up this horn slats I noticed them and figured it would be fine as I didn’t see any cracks. They just seemed like lighter in Color. Clearly this bow was not meant to be. It will go with the others that have failed. Had it not exploded it was likely going to be somewhere between 50-55lbs. Oh well. Have a look. I may do another attempt.
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What the F!@#.
That sucks!!!
Had to be the horns fault.
I've got a pile of failed attempts on a shelf over here too.I rob the tip overlays off them.....ha ha.
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Ya it does suck but this bow making ain’t for the faint of heart. My main mistake with this was not being more selective on the horn. The other side looked great and the issue was not glue up or wood or sinew. I knew as soon as heard the ticks getting it to brace it was done then bang! Like a gun goin off. Scared the crap out of me actually just how loud it was. I knew enough to put safety glasses on in case especially with these suckers with such stored energy and reflex. They seemed to bend nicely up to that point though with most of my looking like was going end up inner to mid limb. Too bad really but that’s how it is. On to the next one. I’ve gotten away with colouration in horn sections before without issues but not on a bow like this. Lesson learned.
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Sincere condolences 🤝 at least the reason is obvious and you could learn and become better 🤗
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Not being one to leave well enough alone I decided to re horn this little bow. Glue up went well. Really inspected horn well to hopefully avoid another explosion. To my eye it all looked good. I bent tested each piece of horn to reveal any potential issues. All looks good. I also put a layer of sturgeon glue on the horn and will let it dry for a week and try bending it. Here’s some pics. Thanks for looking.
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awesome...and this is out of my wheelhouse, but a week doesn't seem like nearly enough time to dry/cure properly. I'm sure Ed will know.
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awesome...and this is out of my wheelhouse, but a week doesn't seem like nearly enough time to dry/cure properly. I'm sure Ed will know.
Thanks bob. I should have been more clear. It was glued up over a week ago already. I just got around to posting updates now. I’ll be ok I think as far as glue up goes by next week. I’m just hoping horn is good this time around. It took a bit of work to get all that bad horn off carefully without wrecking the bow and start again.
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You and Ed know way more about horn than I do, but I don't even string a bow for a couple of weeks after glutting snakeskin on it...months for sinew... it's all too much work for me to take a chance by rushing it. It looks great though.