Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on October 26, 2022, 10:10:30 am
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I recently moved out to a new area and it seemed like a really good area to start a bow-making group. I started a post on the local Facebook page that after the first of the year I was going to have a class for anyone interested. I got a great response, but it is about 75% of women who want to take the class. In the past, I have not had much luck teaching women or kids under about 16, they just quickly lose interest. Not really sure how to handle this tactfully?
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Tough call. It seems there are more women getting involved in archery and hunting every year. How many interested in making selfbows and sticking with it is anybodies guess. How many will be willing to exert the work involved in the total process of gathering staves, debarking, chasing rings, etc., again is anybodies guess.
Maybe have an introductory meeting 1st, and go through the whole process, explain the amount of work involved, and the time investment, then see how many are still seriously interested?
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I dig the idea of the introductory meeting.
It could be useful both for the participants to understand what they are going to face and for you to calibrate the lessons on the expectations of your audience.
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I have worked a lot with women in teaching shooting the bow - it`s not the same as bow building but my experience is, that you have to change your teaching method. Women respond in another way to my words and "pictures" as men do. It`s a challenge when you have years of experience of teaching bow building and now you have to do it different - but it`s worth doing it! Women have such a different view on things - I often can`t agree with them but it`s always interesting.
With kids I have the same experience in bow building like you - if the kids are too young, they lose interest very quick...
Greetz
Cord
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I have worked a lot with women in teaching shooting the bow - it`s not the same as bow building but my experience is, that you have to change your teaching method. Women respond in another way to my words and "pictures" as men do. It`s a challenge when you have years of experience of teaching bow building and now you have to do it different - but it`s worth doing it! Women have such a different view on things - I often can`t agree with them but it`s always interesting.
With kids I have the same experience in bow building like you - if the kids are too young, they lose interest very quick...
Greetz
Cord
I have known dozens of women who started off to make bows, but very few showed up for a second session. I wasn't the teacher here, just talking about different groups. I only know of one woman who became a semi-serious bow builder, I don't remember her name, but she was either at twin oaks or mojam. I have had several incidences where a father brought his kid for lessons and the father ended up getting interested and finishing the bow. I like the idea of an introductory meeting, maybe I could show some bow-making videos along with some other primitive skills that women might be more inclined towards such as basket weaving, shelters, pottery, leather, arrow making, etc. My goal is to get a group going using twin oaks as the basic model. I wish I could figure out a way to get Pappy down here, I think he is the magic behind twin oaks.
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I’ve only made it to Twin Oaks once in 2016 for the Classic. You’re right, Pappy is the magic there.
I recently acquired a new place to cut some Osage, and the lady of the house was very interested when I told her I wanted it for selfbows and not firewood. She had been watching some shows, I assume on something like the History channel, and then started doing a lot of reading on the subject. She walked me down to the wood lot and started asking me questions about which trees, what size, how to read the bark pattern, what are the best growth rings, etc. I was amazed at how interested she was. I don’t know much about her background, and if she would ever take it any farther than the knowledge stage, but you never know.
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Badger I would really like to see updates on how everything evolves for you.
If I wasn’t so busy with my other passion of farming I would really like to try something similar.
I’m curious about the ladies though. My experience with doing demonstrations is that the women are the ones who are most interested and ask the best questions.
Bjrogg
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I would say give it a chance,, you can always stop if its not working,,
:)bow making is just harder than it looks,, and people do get discourged or loose interest when they come to that realization...my driving force when I first started was not just make a bow,, I wanted to make a bow that would hunt,, so that kept me going
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Do you know any women in the archery community you could invite to critique the class/students/teaching style?
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I agree with bjorg here. I’ve done some teaching with many women in firearms training and they learn well and often times faster then the men. I think this is partly due to the ego perhaps getting in the way for men and firearms and in this case bow building. Women that I’ve taught are like sponges and they do ask lots of questions which would be good. I know this isn’t an exact comparison to bow building but I think you may be pleasantly surprised. I would teach them differently for sure like was already said. Women like to be empowered and given lots of good encouragement on any progress. I found men to be a little more independent when given a task. Obviously some exceptions of course. You may have to simplify the course a bit for them and by this I mean have the staves halfway prepared perhaps or lengthen the time allotted for the course. You’ll want to provide some gloves for the ladies and be prepared to do more then usual demonstrations of how it’s done. They are fast learners but many if not most will not have the background working knowledge of hand tools and such. The nice thing about women is that they don’t commonly come preloaded with a chip on their shoulders either. So many times I can remember a group of men and women coming through for some firearms training and often the men would be stuck in bad habits and too proud to admit to go back to basics to fix the issues. Women on the other hand don’t usually come preloaded with these habits and often outshoot the men because of this. This has been my observation with teaching firearms for several years. Young kids under 16 is a different story these days. Like you say if they come with a father or other adult then would be ok I think. Best of luck.
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I know it’s not the same with everyone, but my experiences have been similar to what Dave said.
It’s always easier to teach someone who doesn’t already “know” everything.
I really haven’t done a bow class yet , but I’ve helped several people with different steps in the building of their bows.
I think the two hardest types to teach are the ones that already “know” everything. And the ones that just become paralyzed with fear of doing something wrong and just can’t seem to make themselves do anything.
I’m pretty sure both groups can be found in either gender and color. It’s just in the personality.
The quickest learners know they don’t know everything. Listen and ask good questions.
They have either enough confidence or just plain aren’t afraid to learn from their mistakes.
I think most of them probably handle most challenges in life using the same personal traits
Bjrogg
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I've had many on this yard that shoot bows intrigued about the self bow craft.Over 90% of the time when they inquire about owning one I tell them to come back when they have time and I'll help them make themselves one.9 out of 10 don't return.They would rather buy one.A shortcut.
Learning is to advance yourself.If they don't feel that way.Who am I to argue.Some have the desire to push themselves and some don't.
It's a craft of attraction not promotion.
The field is wide open of different styles once it's explored far enough.Some want to explore them all and some want to make the same type bow.
That's learning too.
I really don't care what the sex of the student is.
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I have tried to host two bow-bees, I had about a dozen newbies at each one as well as 3 or 4 of us experienced guys, the newbies would watch us work all day long but wouldn't touch a thing. They all said they were afraid they would mess something up. The second bow-bee went the same as the first so I abandoned the idea. A good friend tried the same thing twice on his farm near Huntsville Alabama, he wanted to develop a meeting like MoJam, he had the same result as I did.
I have run over a dozen students through my shop, everything is free, I supply the wood, tools and an unlimited amount of my time but only had one student turn into a bow maker and a very good one at that. The rest would just couldn't pick up the process so I would finish their bow for them, half of them just stopped showing up.
It could be that I do it for free, had I charged several hundred dollars for the class perhaps they would have stuck with it to get their money's worth.
As for ladies, the manager at the local Dicks directs people to me who need traditional strings or their bow set up.
He sent me a gal that wanted to learn to shoot a recurve. When I answered the knock on the door there was a lady with multicolored hair, covered up with tattoos and piercings, I thought what have "I gotten myself into".
Was I ever wrong; that lady was one of the nicest, hardworking students I ever had at my place, she had no knowledge about traditional archery and was like a sponge absorbing all the info she could. She followed instructions to a T and picked-up bow shooting faster than anyone I had taught before.
On a side note; she said her work took her to some pretty rough places and she was thinking about getting a pistol but she had never shot one. I got out one of my 9s, again the perfect student.
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Erick, my experience has mirrored yours. I usually have had 3 or 4 so smaller groups. Most of the time we finish them up 1 bow and they are done.
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Same here. One and done. I've never charged anyone for my help so money was not the issue.
Having said that the best eye for a tiller has been my oldest daughter. I guess watching her help correct my tillers over the years has given her that gift.
I agree. Don't discount women.
Jawge
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I've been helping under the bow building shed at Twin Oaks for years. Most of the women I've helped were really into the building part. Some needed instructions with the tools and techniques but once they were shown how they got into it and succeeded. Generally if someone pays for classes they get into it. I've only had a few "slugs" and they were always teenage boys.
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I've been helping under the bow building shed at Twin Oaks for years. Most of the women I've helped were really into the building part. Some needed instructions with the tools and techniques but once they were shown how they got into it and succeeded. Generally if someone pays for classes they get into it. I've only had a few "slugs" and they were always teenage boys.
You probably charmed them Pat and they wanted to impress the teacher
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Wood bow builders seem to be an elite group who have the passion to stick with it. I have 2 friends I shoot indoor with that think they want to learn how to make self bows. I have invited them to my house to use my tools, and staves, but they can never seem to find the time, and both are retired, so in my view they really don't have the passion to learn. I learned hard knocks. No one in my area to show me the proper way. In the first year of building bow I broke more than not, and the one's I did make were way sub par. This sight helped me along a lot plus utube, and reading books,and learning from my mistakes.
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I recently moved out to a new area and it seemed like a really good area to start a bow-making group. I started a post on the local Facebook page that after the first of the year I was going to have a class for anyone interested. I got a great response, but it is about 75% of women who want to take the class. In the past, I have not had much luck teaching women or kids under about 16, they just quickly lose interest. Not really sure how to handle this tactfully?
To Steve's original post, I would definitely not open a class to the under-16 crowd. I see no reason why anyone should exclude women though. I have mentored a dozen people through the process of making their first bows, and most of those people have been women. They generally take longer than a man because of not being quite as strong and because they are generally not as comfortable with tools, but if you allow for that they can get the job done. In the last 5 years I have definitely seen an uptick in the number of women who want to learn bow making and hunting. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion.
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I have tried to host two bow-bees, I had about a dozen newbies at each one as well as 3 or 4 of us experienced guys, the newbies would watch us work all day long but wouldn't touch a thing. They all said they were afraid they would mess something up. The second bow-bee went the same as the first so I abandoned the idea. A good friend tried the same thing twice on his farm near Huntsville Alabama, he wanted to develop a meeting like MoJam, he had the same result as I did.
I have run over a dozen students through my shop, everything is free, I supply the wood, tools and an unlimited amount of my time but only had one student turn into a bow maker and a very good one at that. The rest would just couldn't pick up the process so I would finish their bow for them, half of them just stopped showing up.
It could be that I do it for free, had I charged several hundred dollars for the class perhaps they would have stuck with it to get their money's worth.
As for ladies, the manager at the local Dicks directs people to me who need traditional strings or their bow set up.
He sent me a gal that wanted to learn to shoot a recurve. When I answered the knock on the door there was a lady with multicolored hair, covered up with tattoos and piercings, I thought what have "I gotten myself into".
Was I ever wrong; that lady was one of the nicest, hardworking students I ever had at my place, she had no knowledge about traditional archery and was like a sponge absorbing all the info she could. She followed instructions to a T and picked-up bow shooting faster than anyone I had taught before.
On a side note; she said her work took her to some pretty rough places and she was thinking about getting a pistol
but she had never shot one. I got out one of my 9s, again the perfect student.
Glad you two got along Eric. I wonder if she thought the same thing when the door opened and some old fella with a funny look on his face was standing there.
One thing you can say for sure. Us bowyers are a very diverse group.
I agree with everyone else.
It takes that passion to really get where you need to be.
And the right amount of determination to stick with it
Bjrogg
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No funny looking face or sour expression, I greet everyone with a warm and friendly smile, I am a never met never met a stranger kind of guy. She was an electrician and worked with another electrician longtime friend of mine, the best traditional hunter I have ever known who thinks I am an OK guy so she already had heard everything about me and my abilities, just not met me.
My guy friend's hunting abilities, all with a traditional bow, are beyond amazing, he killed 4 longbeards with his bow in one year, consistently kills a number of deer a year and can kill more hogs on the local Mgt area than all the gun hunters.
Why did you feel it was necessary to make such a comment bjrogg?
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I’ve got nothing but great things to say about the women who’ve attended our bow building workshops.
Some of our most proficient, eager to learn and hardworking attendants have been women.
A pre interview goes a long way. Make sure people understand how labor intensive bowmaking is. I’d say one of the number one comments we get after roughing out bow blanks on the first day is “wow, I knew it would be work, but I had no idea it was that much work”. We don’t allow anyone under the age of 15 for this reason, and anyone under 19 needs adult supervision in Nebraska.
I’d say most of the guys who are running classes for free are finding their issues in that factor alone. Free bows have no value, nor are free instructors typically valued by the masses. There’s nothing at stake for a dilly-dallier to walk away from something that wasn’t paid for, and that’s soon discovered to be difficult.
You should be charging at least a few hundred dollars a person for your time, wear on tools, and materials. That’s being very generous, and wouldn’t even cover the overhead of our 3-day classes (we do go a bit crazy with the meals, let everyone use quality/expensive hand tools, etc).
I bet the majority of everyone’s aforementioned problems would’ve stopped at “free”. There’s no shame in asking what you feel is appropriate for decades of study and expertise, multiple days of instructing, your workspace, tools, countless hours of stave splitting, careful storage/preparation of the bow wood, meals (if you feed everyone), a fun and immersive experience... on, and on… and a nice shooting bow at the end of it all.
Edited for grammar errors.
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You are right about "free". Back when I was completely smitten by archery and ran an indoor range in my spare time for the city, I realized that John Q Public had limited to no knowledge about matching arrows to bows or tuning. I loved helping people so I set up a table in the range on Tuesday night to tune bows, compounds and traditional, help match arrows (I had bucket full of various sizes) serve in peeps and set knocking points. I did this all for free, soon the line of people wanting bow work stretched out the door night after night, I was overwhelmed.
I decided to charge $2 for basic bow work, I never had to work on another bow after I listed a price list for work, the line of people evaporated.
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Eric I’m sorry if I was misunderstood. I certainly meant it as a compliment to both of you.
I think it’s fantastic that we can share our passion with such a wide variety of people.
I didn’t mean that your were making a nasty face.
I was thinking more surprised. Like I imagined in your description when you opened the door.
Sometimes opening doors can bring some new friends
Certainly hope we are good.
I have a lot of respect for you
Bjrogg
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We are good, thanks for the explanation, sometime typed messages don't come out as planned, I am guilty of the same sometimes.
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I re read the original post,, I think just try it, and if not working out,,just say your not going to be able to continue at this time,, and if things change for you you will let them know, and thank them for their participation,, if you want to continure with some of the students,, contact them at a later time,, :)
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You are right about "free"... I decided to charge $2 for basic bow work, I never had to work on another bow after I listed a price list for work, the line of people evaporated.
I am still struggling with this lesson. But ultimately yes. If I do not value my own time, no one else has an incentive to do that either. I have never charged money for any of my in-person mentoring before, either regarding bow making or hunting. I decided that will change from here on. I Zoomed with a woman last week who wants to make her first bow. I made it clear I expected monetary compensation, though if she can get me access to trees I can cut for staves I would accept that as partial payment depending on how many staves I end up with.
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Sounds like a way to meet like minded women Steve!!! 🤠🤠🤠🤠women are easier to teach. Arvin
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Sounds like a way to meet like minded women Steve!!! 🤠🤠🤠🤠women are easier to teach. Arvin
I have a few stories of teaching women in the past, one of them kept asking me to sit behind her on my shaving horse and guide her hands with the draw knife like I did the first time. I noticed this time she had put on perfume LOL.
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I have no desire to turn a hobby into paying gig.
I did that with magic. I turned pro. and got burned out.
I don't want that to happen to archery.
Jawge
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I had no intention of charging money for lessons, I was hoping to get a group going.
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I don't blame you, Badger. Someone brought it up on this thread which is why I mentioned it.
Jawge
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I like the idea of not charging, that way if you decide to stop,, you are not obligated,,,
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one of them kept asking me to sit behind her on my shaving horse and guide her hands with the draw knife like I did the first time. I noticed this time she had put on perfume LOL.
How did that work out?
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one of them kept asking me to sit behind her on my shaving horse and guide her hands with the draw knife like I did the first time. I noticed this time she had put on perfume LOL.
How did that work out?
That was her last bow making lesson, LOL