Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on November 15, 2022, 07:29:15 pm
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I have made and shot bows both ways,, my hunting bow has no shelf,,it is easier to be consistant with arrow placement with nocking point and shelf,, but I have neither,,,and like it ok,,
but never noticed a difference in performance with chrono,, thoughts,,????
I have a really nice plum bow Marc made,, no shelf or handle,,it shoots really well with great cast,,what can I say,,
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All personal choice Brad. When I make a replica bow no string nock ,or shelf. When I make bows for myself I always cut a deep arrow shelf ,and install a string nock. If I make a bow for my friends, or family I let them make the choice. Either way is fine, and chronies don't lie if set up properly. My shooting is more consistent with a string nock, and arrow rest. For others it may be the opposite.
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I like both,, just gravitated to the smooth line of no shelf,,but what ever you like to shoot,,,someone stated that no shelf robbed cast, i had not experienced that ,, that I know of,, just interested to see what others thought were,,, as always,, hope to be learning,,
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Interesting topic! Not that I have a ton of experience with comparisons but I did do a little experiment a while back with 2 of my bamboo bows. One had a shelf and one incidentally did not (I’ve since added a shelf on the other one now). At that time I preferred a shelf. I found that both shot well with negligible difference if any in chrono speeds. The one difference I noted was the noise the shelf bow made compared to the off the knuckles bow made. One could argue that more noise in this case could mean loss of energy thus speed. Perhaps this is the case but what I noticed out of both 40lbs bows were good speeds out of both and were comparable. I’m putting finishing touches on a different 40-45 lbs bamboo/sinew bow now that has no shelf or knock point. I may add a knock point later on but right now this bow is dead nuts accurate for me. I think a lot of this may be the fact that it’s very well balanced and light in the hand and don’t have to struggle to hold on target. This bow is likley up there with my smoothest draw bow to date with zero handshock either. It feels like every ounce of energy is put into the arrow. Accuracy would even be better with consistent knock point I imagine. I make sure I square up by eye with the riser handle before I shoot so it’s fairly consistent but knock point just makes sense to me. The shelf I could add on too later I guess but at this point I love the silence of this bow the way it is. I’ve made other bows similar with homemade feather shelf’s and hair pass that cut noise down still not as whisper quiet as this bow. To eachs own I guess and like bassman says personal preference. I’ve not seen much difference in speed on my limited testing. FYI
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For me, no.
I like a bulbous handle and make the arrow pass about 1" or slightly less. Years ago I started using a floppy rest mainly to protect my thin aging skin on my hand and I use it on most of the bows I make. I sometimes add a small leather rest but I haven't cut in a shelf for quite a while. I prefer not to. To me it's a possible weak spot. I do have a couple of modern glass bows that have shelves and I shoot them pretty well but I imagine that is mostly due to being closer to center shot. I vary rarely ever shoot these bows.
I don't think a shelf adds performance but it probably does affect how well some folks shoot.
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i guess it could really vary from bow to bow,, the floppy rest seems a good way to go,, its effective and minimal,,and easily adjusted if need be,,, if tiller ever shifted it could be moved to tune the bow,,
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Imho the more center shot the stiffer arrows can be used. Stiffer arrows stabilize quicker and loose less energy with unnecessary movement. Closer to centershot also makes it easier to find the right arrows. I think there's a big advantage in building close to centershot, altough I personally dont like the look of a cutout shelf. jm2c
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Simk, That makes sense to me. That loss of energy in arrow flight recovery. The flimsy rest might be similar to the feather rest. The arrow floats above the cut out so to speak and you basically have feather on feather on pass through. They do start to wear out after a few hundred shots though.
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I can shoot a bow with or without a shelf, during my initial tillering I don't have a shelf on a bow, I add one later.
I add a shelf and tiller the bow to the shelf, I can't explain it but I feel how the bow feels as I shoot it to determine the final tweaks that are necessary in the tillering so it "just feels right".
I don't initially cut in much of a sight window, I bare shaft to select the spine the bow likes. If my arrows hit 3" to the left I will fine tune where they hit by filing a little more of a sight window cutout. Usually, it doesn't take much, 1/8" will often mover the arrow impact over the necessary amount.
For my personal bows this is an ongoing process that goes on for months as the bow shoots in and stabilizes, I make tiny little adjustments until I feel everything is just right.
This is about where I end up on a rest and sight window, I may cut it in a little more during the tuning process.
I always cover the handle with leather to cover up most of my glued on rest.
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Man that looks good Eric. Nice and slick. Did you use bone or antler for the rest?
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Has anyone here tried these feather rests?? Here’s a couple pics of one I made recently. Seems to quiet down the bow a bit.
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The thing about this is a shelf is only in effect as the arrow is drawn. Once the arrow is released it should not touch the shelf or the side of the window so as I see it the shelf only helps the shooter keep the arrow on the bow while drawn. I use the floppy rest to protect my hand if my release isn't good and the fletching rides across my hand.
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Imho the more center shot the stiffer arrows can be used. Stiffer arrows stabilize quicker and loose less energy with unnecessary movement. Closer to centershot also makes it easier to find the right arrows. I think there's a big advantage in building close to centershot, altough I personally dont like the look of a cutout shelf. jm2c
+1 to this. I can't imagine a shelf will significantly improve raw arrow speed, but it does offer the above advantages along with greater consistency. If ultimate accuracy is your goal then a shelf (or even better, a rest) will be the way to go, but many people shoot well enough off their hand or a floppy rest for most uses.
Mark
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I make my shelves and tip overlays with some kind of burl wood, I have osage, walnut and oak burls.
My rests start out like this before I file them down to shape.
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It’s a good technique right there. I do very similar with mine. I like a very tight glue line. On this one I used small leftover pieces of Buffalo horn for the rests and bloodwood for the pass on each side. More decorative then anything really but thought it looked good.
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those are so beautiful,, im sure the arrow goes faster :D
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Imho the more center shot the stiffer arrows can be used. Stiffer arrows stabilize quicker and loose less energy with unnecessary movement. Closer to centershot also makes it easier to find the right arrows. I think there's a big advantage in building close to centershot, altough I personally dont like the look of a cutout shelf. jm2c
+1 to this. I can't imagine a shelf will significantly improve raw arrow speed, but it does offer the above advantages along with greater consistency. If ultimate accuracy is your goal then a shelf (or even better, a rest) will be the way to go, but many people shoot well enough off their hand or a floppy rest for most uses.
This is why I do it!!! Stiffer arrows that come out of a bow clean go farther!!! Chrono’s just tell’s the tell at 3-5’. Also they don’t tell anything about clean flight .Just saying. But if you don’t like a shelf that’s fine. I don’t add wood I just leave what Needs to be there. Gorgeous bows guys. Arvin
Mark
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It has always been easier for me to tune the bow to the arrow with a shelf, and a lot of times I can shoot more than one spine, and get good bare shaft results. My bow shelves are 1/4 inch deep give ,or take. I agree that the shelf cut out weakens that area of the bow, but I haven't had any breakage problems in that area to date.
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Beautiful, Eric. I don't do cut out shelves but I do favor some shaped leather as a shelf.
If I decide to shoot without one it is usually at the top of the leather covering.
The forward ends of the fletchings need to be skyved. I usually wrap my feathers anyway.
More on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/leatherhandle.html
Jawge
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I always wrap the forward end of the fletching and have for years. I friend of mine had a loose fletch go into his hand once and since then I've wrapped the forward end and sealed it to smooth it out.
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most of my shots are very close compared to someone flight shooting,,I agree chrono cant tell how far the arrow gonna go,, but its a good indication of bow perfromance,,my bows are hunting bows,,and good arrow flight is important as well,, I killed a very large buffalo with a bow that had no rest,,the arrow went in
behind the shoulder and came out the other side,, I just dont feel like a rest is necessary for a hunting bow,,if there is a loss of performance it is not a consideration for how I use a bow,, I am able to shoot stiffer spined arrows with a good release,, I think in theory its a good point,, but in real life ,,, either way works fine,,, and my go to is,, if it was really important,,or an advantage,, we would have seen arrow rest on many more bows of the past,,, having no rest is just not a negative thing,, :)
ok more info than needed,, but back in the day,,20 30 years ago, all the guys shooting my bows for competition used a rest,, back then most were making the transition from a fiberglass bow and the thought of no rest really freaked them out, so all the bows I made had a rest or even a cut into the bow rest,, Im not sure what inspired me to do the buffalo hunt with bow with no rest, but I think I was trying to learn about Nataive style bows and just wanted to hunt with something similar to what they hunted with,, as stated it was effective,, as I made more and more bows over the years I think I just enjoyed the most basic designs,,
I will use Mark as an example hope he dont mind, but I mentioned the plum bow I bought from him,, no handle,, not rest,, bows makers at that level,, would not make a bow if it was not effecient,, or somehow flawed in design,,
what I should take a rasp and cut a shelf in it, not gonna happen,, ;D )P( (-S
I post a pic when I get organized here,,
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Brad, I agree. I cannot see how there could be a loss in performance.
Betcha more animals have been killed without rests than with over the past Millenia.
Jawge
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good point George,,I like that about the past millenia ;D
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I think in theory its a good point,, but in real life ,,, either way works fine,,,
Betcha more animals have been killed without rests than with over the past Millenia.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the above, but it is worth remembering that good enough and optimum are not the same thing. It's a horses for courses thing. When chasing the last 1% of performance everything has to be just right, which is why Arvin finds using a cut in rest to be better. For a hunting bow being used with heavy arrows at close range other aspects are more important.
Mark
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Nothing wrong with a rest that is cut-in as long as the handle is not bending. Jawge
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I just dont believe a cut in rest is better,,for most applications,, show me an example of improved performance,,, so I can get my head around it,, any example,,, I used my arrow through the buffalo as an example,, it was way beyond good enough,it looked optimum to me when the arrow came out the other side,,, so what would optimum be,, two buffalos,, ok I have read that some did kill the buffalo and cow behind,, :) with bow making, there are so many ways to improve perfromance,,,I just dont think the arrow rest is a major one,, but if you show me something Im open minded,, any example,,have not been convinced to cut a rest in Marc's bow,, if it needed one he would have done it,, :D right
if the bow handle is close to center, what difference would it make if it had rest or not,,performance wise,,it would shoot the same stiff arrow,, it would get the same tuned arrow flight,, what???
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I just dont believe a cut in rest is better,,for most applications,, show me an example of improved performance,,, so I can get my head around it,,
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with bow making, there are so many ways to improve perfromance,,,I just dont think the arrow rest is a major one,
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if the bow handle is close to center, what difference would it make if it had rest or not
1) Arvin did give you an example - flight shooting. If he says a cut in rest gives better performance I will believe him. For less performance oriented applications I don't think it matters at all.
2) I agree 100%, the arrow rest is one of the last 1% things, not a major thing at all.
3) A rest/shelf is more consistent and centershot requires less arrow flex, both of which are more forgiving in the case of a bad shot/release. Again, we are talking about tiny differences. If your bow has a natural centershot handle then that should be the same as a cut in shelf in terms of paradox.
One thing to think about is Olympic archers and what their bows look like. If arrow rests and centershot risers offered no advantages why do they use them? And why are they banned from trad/primitive archery competitions?
Mark
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2x mm, but if you are happy with out a shelf so be it. It is your bow, your arrow, and your little world.
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he didnt give an example of flight shooting,he just said it was an advantage,, maybe it is,, , an example would be like all flight shooting records use a rest, that could be true I dont know,,flight shooting is out of my area of expertise,,
I didnt know we were talking about olympic shooting,, isnt this a primitive site,,,
so you think cutting a rest in Marcs bow would improve perfromance,, because the olympic bows have one,,
Im glad to believe him if someone shows me an example,, if I was gonna compete in flight shooting and all winners had a rest,, I would get one really quick, ;D
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badger gonna post and say he proved it by shooting flight records with a rest,,well then ill say ok,,,
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Mark. You mention that,
“ If your bow has a natural centershot handle then that should be the same as a cut in shelf in terms of paradox.”
I’m not sure I fully understand what you said. It’s possible I misunderstood what you’re saying here. To my understanding a center shot bow will have less shooters paradox to overcome for good flight then a bow that is not center shot. Are you saying that a natural center shot would be similar to a center shot cut in shelf? To me that would line up the same. It would all depend on the depth of the cut in shelf and how close to center shot it is that would affect arrow flight. My experience has been that even center shot bows need arrows tuned but is less picky for arrows. Some of my best shooting bows had the string favouring arrows rest side. A shelf cut in can range in depth of the cut in. A cut in shelf even a 1/8th” out from center shot will have a disadvantage over the center shot bow albeit slight. A knuckle rest or cut in shelf covered in leather or hair rest that are the same distance away from center shot will shoot virtually that same as far as any measurable means are concerned. The paradox would be the same in my estimation with the two. I’m just trying to understand better and see if we are in the same page.
Good discussion here
Cheers
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I didnt know we were talking about olympic shooting,, isnt this a primitive site,,,
Their bows started out looking like our bows and evolved towards greater and greater levels of precision. That would indicate the way towards greater performance with our bows as well. I don't think you're going to get an example that satisfies your needs, the differences between no shelf/rest and a cut in shelf are just not going to be that great. At most you get easier tuning, more forgiving on a bad shot and maybe cleaner arrow flight.
To my understanding a center shot bow will have less shooters paradox to overcome for good flight then a bow that is not center shot. Are you saying that a natural center shot would be similar to a center shot cut in shelf? To me that would line up the same.
Yes, that is what I meant. I think we are on the same page with this.
Mark
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Dave... build 2 bows as close to the same as you can. 1 with a deep shelf (1/4 inch) cut out ,and bare shaft arrow tune both bows. Then go to a different spine arrow both up ,or down. Then report your findings to us. I see were you shot a beautiful buck with great shot placement. Congrads. What ever you are doing it is working quite well for you. Post it here ,so the guys can see it.
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Thanks Bassman!
I did this with two 40lbs bows already. I did t bare shaft tune them or anything but my results I spoke of in my initial reply to this thread. The results were minimal in speed if any noticeable difference. Both shot nice and straight with a 350 spine arrow at 400grains. Arrows were carbons with standard feathers straight jig right wing feathers. The only real difference was the silence in the shot with no shelf compared to the one with shelf. Granted that being said the shelf cut version did quite up a bit more later after I put a strip of leather on arrow pass but still not as whisper quite as the No shelf bow. Hope that helps.
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Well you have proven to yourself which you prefer.
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Brad the example is most of my records have beat the last record by not one percent but closer to ten percent. My bows have 15 records total. Four personal the others by other people. I assure you Steve will tell you stiffer arrows will go farther assuming they come out of the bow clean. You also don’t tune a bow to an arrow by cutting the bow more center. You take mass off the arrow until it spines properly for the bow. Unless you never miss and don’t break arrows. I’m not that guy. 🤠the less an arrow has to paradox the more energy it will hold. This is a fact not an example. Build a bow without a shelf spine an arrow to clear the bow and have good flight then cut the shelf in it spine another arrow for the same bow that is stiffer and then shoot it.the arrows need to weigh the same. If you don’t want to do all this then just take the mans word for it that has. Not trying to be smart here guys just been there done that. Most all of those records came from shooting arrows farther than Steve’s. He is a friend and has taught me a lot about flight. Arvin
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Listening to a podcast by Dr Ed Ashby on tuning ultra extreme Forward of center arrows it was interesting to note that he said non-center shot (even on compound bows) becomes an advantage because you can get a higher percentage FOC if you use a lighter spine/ lighter arrow and therefore to tune it properly you must force it to bend more around the less center shot rest/ bow.
To take the initial question/ post further if one assumes in a hunting bow that being able to shoot higher FOC arrows for the same overall arrow weight gives a performance/ penetration advantage, then it would be fair to say non-center shot helps!
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Would shooting a stiffer spine arrow but adding extra weight up front to change the dynamic spine recover from paradox faster compared to a lighter spine that flexes the same amount?
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Listening to a podcast by Dr Ed Ashby on tuning ultra extreme Forward of center arrows it was interesting to note that he said non-center shot (even on compound bows) becomes an advantage because you can get a higher percentage FOC if you use a lighter spine/ lighter arrow and therefore to tune it properly you must force it to bend more around the less center shot rest/ bow.
To take the initial question/ post further if one assumes in a hunting bow that being able to shoot higher FOC arrows for the same overall arrow weight gives a performance/ penetration advantage, then it would be fair to say non-center shot helps!
Just use a heavier arrow for more penetration. Bear, Pearson and a host of other bowyers cut the bows more center shot for a reason and the glass had nothing to do with it. Arvin
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great discussion and info,, Im listening ,, and thanks for all that posted and posting,, (-S of couse I like the part about the non center shot helping penetration,, but I understand about rest helping arrows go further,,its very interesting,,and I enjoy the converstion, even in my little world.. ;D :)
thank you Selfbowman for your explanation and example,, :) :) :)
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I shoot winter league with guys that swear their bows are shooting a dead straight arrow until I strip a feather, and let them shoot a bare shaft. Most are glass bows with shelves, and not center cut .The archers are seasoned with good form. In a few cases their bare shaft was close to tune, but in most cases not so much. Then we would make the necessary adjustments to get them tuned properly. I am not a flight shooter like Arvin,or Badger, but I gage a well tuned bow for hunting by bare shafting. If it is done properly a feathered field point ,and broad head will impact in the same place as the bare shaft with peak energy. High foc came about as a norm when guys started shooting light carbon arrows,and needed more hunting weight. The easiest way to do that was add more point weight. Not really necessary when hunting thin skinned animals, or are single bevel broad heads.. That has been proven for decades for guys who shot heavy wood arrows with lighter broad heads.
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I shoot winter league with guys that swear their bows are shooting a dead straight arrow until I strip a feather, and let them shoot a bare shaft. Most are glass bows with shelves, and not center cut .The archers are seasoned with good form. In a few cases their bare shaft was close to tune, but in most cases not so much. Then we would make the necessary adjustments to get them tuned properly. I am not a flight shooter like Arvin,or Badger, but I gage a well tuned bow for hunting by bare shafting. If it is done properly a feathered field point ,and broad head will impact in the same place as the bare shaft with peak energy. High foc came about as a norm when guys started shooting light carbon arrows,and needed more hunting weight. The easiest way to do that was add more point weight. Not really necessary when hunting thin skinned animals, or are single bevel broad heads.. That has been proven for decades for guys who shot heavy wood arrows with lighter broad heads.
True!
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im sure there are those that are learning and reading that are not posting,, and that is so great,, discussions like this I think are so helpful,, and contribute to better understanding of archery, which is really cool,,even old guys like me are still learning,,, :)
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Just use a heavier arrow for more penetration. Bear, Pearson and a host of other bowyers cut the bows more center shot for a reason and the glass had nothing to do with it. Arvin
Not to be argumentative on this one but, it would be hard to argue that anyone has done more comprehensive studies on arrow penetration than Dr Ed Ashby - who has put a single minded life’s dedication to this subject and has thousands and thousands of pieces of data to back it up.
For what it’s worth he categorises arrow weight and forward of center arrow weight as 2 different penetration enhancing factors. So for a given arrow weight, and all else being equal, the more forward of center arrow penetrates better.
Here is a link to these factors and a discussion on them…
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/12-arrow-penetration-factors
Would shooting a stiffer spine arrow but adding extra weight up front to change the dynamic spine recover from paradox faster compared to a lighter spine that flexes the same amount?
Yes this is true … but when trying to push FOC up very very high, there comes a point were the arrow is simply not stiff enough and making a bow less center shot becomes an advantage.
Ashby also discusses somewhere that one of the problems with trying to get a high foc arrow to fly well out of a compound bow that is truly center shot and with a drop away rest is that you are not “telling the arrow” which way to flex … and so actually it can cause inconsistency and become hard to tune if it is too center shot.
Ashby discusses all the logic and how to tune a bow for FOC here … https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7rP8Xantd3Q …. and he covers this in particular for compound bows and the evolution of center shot in minute 35 onwards…
For what it’s worth, I have always enjoyed listening to the man, his experiences and his knowledge
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Great topic. Tommy D, I totally agree about Ashby and high FOC for penetration on game. Out of some of my FG bows I shoot carbon arrows with up to 36%FOC and love the enhanced penetration factors. With that said what Arvin and others are referring to is flight archery.... Two totally different forms of archery.
I guess what I'm trying to say is what works for one application probably isn't the best choice for a different application. If I want to learn about performance enhanced arrows for hunting I'll refer to thre Ashby studies....if I'm learning about flight shooting and bow performance I'll refer to Arvin & Badger. JMO
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I guess what I'm trying to say is what works for one application probably isn't the best choice for a different application. If I want to learn about performance enhanced arrows for hunting I'll refer to thre Ashby studies....if I'm learning about flight shooting and bow performance I'll refer to Arvin & Badger. JMO
Agreed on the subject of horses for courses… I didn’t realise this topic was about flight shooting - of which I know nothing about. I just thought I would mention the Extreme EFOC concept as it related to arrow penetration/ hunting because I believe Ashby has only fairly recently distinguished extreme Forward of center weight as being separately important to penetration from arrow weight per se.
It would probably also be fair to say that before the advent of light stuff carbon arrows, it would have been much harder for “traditional” bow hunters to build EFOC arrows.
One interesting thing about FOC arrows is that they also do not need such large feathers to stabilise them. I don’t know how this relates to flight shooting but at a certain point I would guess that having the smallest possible feathers needed to stabilise arrows may have some advantage in flight/ distance shooting… perhaps more so in the broadhead categories?
I always enjoyed this particular Ashby article on Extreme Forward of Center arrows https://www.grizzlystik.com/PR/Ashby_Papua_New_Guinea_Bows_and_Arrows.pdf where he proposes that the arrival of steel in Papua New Guinea led to a complete bow redesign from a palm bow that had probably been around for hundreds of years to a much cruder bamboo weapon but that could be built with much less center shot to allow the unfletched, much heavier 4000 grain 40 % EFOC steel tipped arrows.
Fascinating stuff!
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If you experiment long enough you will find what works best for you, and your preferences be it flight shooting, or hunting. You guys have a nice thanksgiving, and pray for world peace. Things are getting crazier each day on our planet.
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If you experiment long enough you will find what works best for you, and your preferences be it flight shooting, or hunting. You guys have a nice thanksgiving, and pray for world peace. Things are getting crazier each day on our planet.
I agree
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I was thinking hunting and target shooting,, but the flight shooting was very informative,,
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Arvin, and Steve know how to make a champion shooting flight bow Brad. They know their stuff. Ed, and Marc, and others make some really nice bows on this site, and share knowledge. The bows just keep getting better, and better. Nice to keep the craft alive.
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Nope
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One more thing. The first time I went to a flight shoot old Arvin chose to put a heavy broadhead on the front of a Lighter arrow still with right spine. Thinking the broadhead would drag the arrow further. Boy was I wrong. It does fine till the arrow starts to fall then the forward weight pulls down causing less distance.🤠🤠🤠I’m not the sharpest tack in the box but I learn from my mistakes.🤠🤠🤠
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So in contrast at an IBA shoot some time ago I saw the disabled world record compound shooter [Matt Stutzman] shoot at an 8" balloon with an arrow at 100 yards.He participates in the paraolympics.
He's armless and draws with his feet.
The arrow arrived to pop the balloon and fell straight down onto the ground.It did'nt have enough energy to get past the balloon and stick into the target.
0 penetration from that arrow.
A feat it might be but does'nt impress me much.
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Ed he’s a bad ass !!!! I don’t care if he had penetration he penetrated the ballon!🤠how often do folks shoot a animal at that distance. Not often.
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That's for sure,but no kill.
So was Howard Hill with a kill.
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Yes Ed but he did not pull the string with his teeth! And Howard is my hero. I don’t remember seeing a picture of Howard shooting off his knuckle. Although I’m sure he did it at some point. Why did his bows have a rest and strike plates is the question related to the original question. Does a more center shot bow perform better. Yep it will if tuned correctly.
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Howard shot many bows off his knuckle.Always holding the bow at a slight cant.
I agree my centershot wiggle handled or cut in center shot bows do shoot more efficiently and more accurately for me.
Whether they have a shelf or not is a non factor.
A shelf on a bow is modern adaptation to primitive archery.
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Howard shot many bows off his knuckle.Always holding the bow at a slight cant.
I agree my centershot wiggle handled or cut in center shot bows do shoot more efficiently and more accurately for me.
Whether they have a shelf or not is a non factor.
A shelf on a bow is modern adaptation to primitive archery.
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I agree it is a modern adaptation to primitive archery . I wonder if the bowyers of days gone by would have used The modern methods had they been introduced at the times? Maybe they to did not feel the need. 🤠
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They perform better for my applications. Try hanging a knuckle bow on a bow hook with an arrow nocked. Gravity wins every time. Or, try shooting a knuckle bow with no glove on your bow hand. Then add a thick glove on that hand and try again.
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Good to see you posting pearly !!!
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Brad's question was about shelves (never had a problem shooting without them) but then, center shot or nearly so was introduced into the equation.
Of course, arrows shot from center shot bows recover from the effects of winding around the handle but proper tuning negates that.
Then, we went off talking about flight shooting.
I used to have places to do that close to home but no longer because of new homes.
So here we are and I am also glad PD popped in.
Jawge
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They perform better for my applications. Try hanging a knuckle bow on a bow hook with an arrow nocked. Gravity wins every time. Or, try shooting a knuckle bow with no glove on your bow hand. Then add a thick glove on that hand and try again.
I do.
That's another modern habit.I hold my bow across my lap while in the stand.I've shot many an arrow across my naked knuckle.Still hav'nt been stabbed.I don't wrap the front end of my feathers either.I taper mine and put a drop of duco glue on it.Let it half dry and flatten it smooth.
I did make myself a leather guard though,because I shoot the same arrows many times.
Like said it works well for me.
They ought to call this site Primitive Archery with all of the modern adaptations.
I can't really bitch though.I find FF string quite the advantage.
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They perform better for my applications. Try hanging a knuckle bow on a bow hook with an arrow nocked. Gravity wins every time. Or, try shooting a knuckle bow with no glove on your bow hand. Then add a thick glove on that hand and try again.
I do.
I hold my bow across my lap while in the stand.I've shot many an arrow across my naked knuckle.Still hav'nt been stabbed.I don't wrap the front end of my feathers either.I taper mine and put a drop of duco glue on it.Let it half dry and flatten it smooth.
Hey Ed. I do something similar with mine but use a small drop of thick crazy glue. What’s this duco glue you speak of?
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Never tried thicker super glue but can see why it would work.Duco is cheap stuff in a tube.Wall Mart carries it also.Does'nt dry quite as fast as super glue but within 30 minutes anyway.It can be molded and flattened as it dries.As soon as it gets a skin on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/yMt0Up2.jpg)
Holds feathers on great too.Even after fetching arrows from a pond after an hour.....ha ha.
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if your bow is tuned for shooting off the hand, , the arrow wont hit you and you dont need a glove,,
if the arrow is nocked too low,, or the tiller is off,,or if your release is bad,, it will hit your hand,,,, if the arrow is hitting your hand,, it would hit the rest,, and effect arrow flight in a negative way,,
I have had days when the arrow hit me,, it was my release most the time,, a bad release is not good for shooting off your knuckle,, but lets you know you need to work on something,, usually for me its not enough pressure on my top finger,, if I correct that the arrow flies better,,,
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My comment wasn't about the feather tickling your hand on its way gone. It was about the thickness of the glove and the way you have to change your hand/grip position to accommodate that. Your hand is obviously larger with a glove on and would raise the arrow upward if you didn't move your hand down.
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My comment wasn't about the feather tickling your hand on its way gone. It was about the thickness of the glove and the way you have to change your hand/grip position to accommodate that. Your hand is obviously larger with a glove on and would raise the arrow upward if you didn't move your hand down.
That's not a problem either.I'm not shooting with a carved in pistol grip handle with a shelf.I shoot bulbous handles.Another modern adaptation.It's easily adjusted with an ever so slightly different grip.It's never that much that I need to change my nocking point on my string.I use dental floss string nocking wraps.
I don't need to convince anybody about this.It's just a fact that's proven to myself over and over.
I'll add here for the skeptical.Your string nock has to be adjusted to your arrow pass with the bow in tiller at full draw drawing in a straight line while on the tillering tree from your string nocking point.Your arrow shaft has to adjusted to your bow.
If any of those things are not right you won't shoot well and with centershot bows even without shelves and full length tapered shoot shafts it gets even better or more forgiving yet.
Each to his own I say.
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The aspect of a shelf that I find the most helpful is the consistency that can be added. You have a consistent point of contact with the arrow. A proper shelf will have a bevel that minimizes contact with the arrow. These factors increase performance in one sense.
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Maybe for some but it's hog wash to me.I'm just as consistent the way I do it.
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My truck needs a hog wash. Cant even tell what color the pig is.
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Well at least you live in the country.Stay away from the brine.....ha ha.
Sorry to meet again on a differing subject PD but it was'nt my choice and this site is not what it used to be.
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Our road is either a dusty or muddy mess. Never in between :)
Ed, the last thing I worry about is how anybody else enjoys their version of archery and I know we both enjoy our chosen routes. This site is a slowly, sinking ship and the PA "magazine" staff made it that way. I'm forever grateful for the crew of friends from around the country that I made. That cant be taken away.
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bow on left plum bow by Marc,, hard used sinew bow by me on right,, killed a deer with it,, let a friend hold it while strung,,they pulled it back and dry fired it,, lesson learned,, dont let anyone hold your bow strung, bow is now retired,,
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It is clear to see we are set on our ways. Varying choices with satisfying results. It is what makes the world go round.
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i shoot both types of bows,, I just enjoy shooting any bow that is well made,,and I seem to gravitate to the minimum,,a bow with a string,, is magic,,and I am so inspired by the Native bows I have studied,, I enjoy shooting bows of the most simple design,,I made some short bows Sioux Design,, cause I was like why did they do that,,23 inch arrow,, how can that work,, well I made some and shot through the chrono,, 180 fps with an arrow slightly less than 10 gpp,, the bow was above 55# and the arrow in the 450 grain range,, I was like ohhh, thats why they liked that style bow,, I learned,, and still am,, and no need to say,, it didnt have a rest,,like most of those or all of those bows of that design,, it was slightly bend in handle,, so I dont think cutting a rest would work,, that being said I have not tried it,,I do think for longer range accuracy,, you would have to develope the skill,, I was only good out to about 10 yards,, but had not been shooting that way since I was a small child either,, would have been cool to see what level of accuracy was achieved by someone shooting that style bow for a lifetime,,
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Brad... I have made quite a few horse bows over the years both ways. I found out real quick, and so did they that an arrow rest, and string nock point was mush easier for the grand sons to shoot. 2 good reference points for the arrow that are easily managed even by youngsters. So their is that too, but it is still just a personal choice.
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good point,, didnt think of the youngsters,,
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I don't think it changes the performance of a bow much if any but i like a shelf, nothing fancy , just something to hold my arrow when hunting, I always hang my bow and you can't do that with an off the hand bow, If I try and hold my bow for any length of time my old hands go to sleep so I hang it. Wasn't there so not sure how the natives done it and really don't care it works for me, It's hard to draw a line on what some think is primitive so I don't try, I just do what works for me and let everyone else do the same,no disrespect just do what works for you. I shoot selfbows That's it. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Keep shootin Pappy,, hope you got some deer meat in the freezer,,I dont think deer know if you got a shelf or not,, :) (-S
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I plane on it Brad, I think at least this year they wished i was shooting an off the knuckle bow and my hands had went to sleep. ;) :) :) :)
Pappy
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I always install a slightly raised horn dot on my arrow shelf as an indicator where to lay the arrow.That along with a dental floss string nock gets me right every time.
Each to his own I say but it's still a FG mentality with a shelf.
Personally I was not influenced by shooting FG bows before making self bows.
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I've never put a rest on any of my bows; I just like the feel of shooting off the hand. But one thing I have started doing is making a contoured handle, just a little dip for the web of my thumb to go in. The consistent, effortless hand placement has really helped with my accuracy, especially while hunting and field shooting.
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This site is a slowly, sinking ship and the PA "magazine" staff made it that way.
Have you mentioned this to the staff? It would be a shame if the site were to go down.
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I always install a slightly raised horn dot on my arrow shelf as an indicator where to lay the arrow.That along with a dental floss string nock gets me right every time.
Each to his own I say but it's still a FG mentality with a shelf.
Personally I was not influenced by shooting FG bows before making self bows.
I was Ed. They are right. Just saying . Is it primitive? Probably not. Is it all natural materials? Yes. Did I scape the bows with a rock? No. Are fg and Arvin bows more forgiving, easier to tune and shoot ? Yes Do they perform Better in flight distance shoots and most tournaments ? Yes Did they have the same type contest in years gone by. Of course they did. I bought a bunch of probably 70 year old flight shafts last summer. Are you they primitive? Don’t think so they had plastic vanes and plastic nocks. I have to remove those to meet the current rules. This has been interesting and fun though guys. Arvin
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I think at close range,, hunting,, not an issue
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It’s all good guys ! I’m the weird one.🤠
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weird is good,, ;D ;D ;D
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Based off the original question, does a bow with a shelf perform better well in my hands I have to say it does. I spent years making every replica under the Sun besides a horn bow. Everything from Shorty's with sinew strings to long d-bows. I could never develop a consistent draw cycle with any of them. Not until recently I figured out a consistent cycle and realized all my areas of Target panic. Two of the main ones were string slap on the arm ( now I always wear an armed guard) and running an arrow over the top of my hand. Figured if I need to wear a bracer glove I might as well just cut a shelf in. That's just what works for me, I like them all but can only shoot some. I love the nostalgia of a truly primitive setup but I do know I certainly don't belong in the woods with one
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I always install a slightly raised horn dot on my arrow shelf as an indicator where to lay the arrow.That along with a dental floss string nock gets me right every time.
Each to his own I say but it's still a FG mentality with a shelf.
Personally I was not influenced by shooting FG bows before making self bows.
I was Ed. They are right. Just saying . Is it primitive? Probably not. Is it all natural materials? Yes. Did I scape the bows with a rock? No. Are fg and Arvin bows more forgiving, easier to tune and shoot ? Yes Do they perform Better in flight distance shoots and most tournaments ? Yes Did they have the same type contest in years gone by. Of course they did. I bought a bunch of probably 70 year old flight shafts last summer. Are you they primitive? Don’t think so they had plastic vanes and plastic nocks. I have to remove those to meet the current rules. This has been interesting and fun though guys. Arvin
That's all fine to me Arvin.Each to their own.You have fun.I will too.I've heard it all before.Even to the point that as soon as you start up the chainsaw your out of the primitive world.
I've tested many many bows shooting with the set up I use with witnesses and other competitors too and some bows do very well.10 grain arrows,chrongraph
[into the low 180's]/flight [into the low 220 foot range]/ target/and hunting wise over the years with many deer kills without a need to convince people a certain way.
I'm not shooting 450 grain arrows on a 50# bow.
I agree natural materials in the bow is the connection here IMO.
Based off the original question, does a bow with a shelf perform better well in my hands I have to say it does. I spent years making every replica under the Sun besides a horn bow. Everything from Shorty's with sinew strings to long d-bows. I could never develop a consistent draw cycle with any of them. Not until recently I figured out a consistent cycle and realized all my areas of Target panic. Two of the main ones were string slap on the arm ( now I always wear an armed guard) and running an arrow over the top of my hand. Figured if I need to wear a bracer glove I might as well just cut a shelf in. That's just what works for me, I like them all but can only shoot some. I love the nostalgia of a truly primitive setup but I do know I certainly don't belong in the woods with one
Paul I used to have string slap long ago when first starting to make bows.I use a minimal amount of equipment now.Actually I can shoot without an arm bracer myself if I want to.The only reason I do use it because after many shots with an arrow things can wear down.Using FF string I use a glove as it can get abrasive after a while.
People don't inspect their arrows enough far as I'm concerned.
(https://i.imgur.com/0ef06gN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gc05Rya.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tq8aLKP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wBQv8cV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IR0YPwi.jpg)
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Looks good Ed. What kind of leather did you use for that?
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This one is just some bark tanned elk.Most any leather will work as long as it is'nt too thin and stretchy.
Using stiff thicker leather does'nt work either.
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the way I hold my bow seems to be different than some,, the string always hits me,,I have my bow braced as low as i can and get good arrow flight,, in my mind I get a bit more performance speed with a lower brace,, and also in my mind am reducing stress on the bow,, so I wear an armguard,, the good arrow flight is also important when using the chronograph,,
Great looking glove,, :)
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I've learned to bow my forearm from my elbow and wrist slightly over the years while drawing.I think that helps a lot to prevent wrist or arm slap.
Everyone adjusts to their liking.
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Brad you get very little added performance with an extreme low brace. If you have a chrony you can prove that to yourself, and if you over cant your bow you can get arm slap that you wouldn't get with a lesser cant. I have found a brace of 6 to 6.5 inches for longer self bows, and no less than 5 inches with horse bows works fine for me, and no arm slap which can cause bad arrow flight. Different glass bows brace as high as 9.5 to 10 inches depending on design just as an example. Glass is a no no on here, and I only mention it as an example.
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ok I try it a little higher, (W