Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tommy D on November 18, 2022, 12:26:35 pm
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I know that this is one of those questions where someone can invariably say “It depends … on the wood, the tiller, the mass etc…”
So let’s just say you execute everything perfectly with great bow wood …. Does recurving a self bow gain you significant performance?
Or would heat treating a bow into a reflex deflex profile be more appropriate/ easier to execute?
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Yes the trick is to make the recurve a working recurve and keep the mass out of the ends. You better be good at tiller to make the recurves work. Any time you move the tips forward with out excessive mass you get better performance.
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wow thats a tricky one,,a well made straight tip bow can shoot pretty hard,,my recurve bows have not been that much faster if any, but Im not that good at the recurve thing,, I think from what I have read,, the perfectly executed recurve would be a bit faster,,
ok that being said,, a sinew backed recurve I think is easier to execute,, because the sinew will hold the the profile a little better than a all wood bow,, and is probably gonna shoot harder than a all wood bow,,
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My understanding is that the main point of static curves is to reduce string pinch on a shorter bow, thus making it more forgiving. Correct?
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So I’m guessing even reflex would improve performance?
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With selfbows there is give and take, by adding recurves you strain the limbs more so yes, recurving a bow can add to its cast but depending on how much strain it causes to the working limbs it could be a mute point because the strain can overpower the expected performance gain. I think it's in TBBII, the chapter on recurves it says the farther forward of the handle the tips are the more performance can be expected. I believe that refers to recurves and reflexed limbs. I also think it says that static recurves are faster or give better performance than working recurves.
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If when you are finished with a straight limbed bow that keeps a couple inches of reflex, and after you are done shooting the bow it snaps back to it's original shape after taking it down you will have built a snappy bow. Not quite as fast as a recurve , but close enough for hunting purposes. A fire hardened slimmer than normal hickory bow will do just that done properly. Makes a fine shooting bow.
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I built a static and it shot well and yes it puts more strain on the inner limbs but I feel the added mass negated the end result. I built a working recurve boo backed Osage that shot further than the modern longbow record. I built a selfbow on the same design and it shoots within five yds of the boo backed bow. I look forward to next years flight shoot with that one. Here is some pic.
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Selfbow
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Nice Arvin.
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My understanding is that the main point of static curves is to reduce string pinch on a shorter bow, thus making it more forgiving. Correct?
Yes I also think helps with increasing string nock groove angles on shorter bows.
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My understanding is that the main point of static curves is to reduce string pinch on a shorter bow, thus making it more forgiving. Correct?
Yes I also think helps with increasing string nock groove angles on shorter bows.
All of which allow for a shorter but higher strained bow design. It also serves to greatly increase early string tension which will increase performance.
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Damn Arvin, that bow is beautiful. Just love the profile.
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If looking to heat treat white wood it’s hard to beat performance of a hickory properly heat treated with flipped tips and some build in reflex. There are limits with hickory but it’s pretty tough. Moisture is a problem for hickory especially in robbing performance. Thinning out the flipped tips will keep mass to a minimum and help with cast. They can be working flipped tips or recurves depending on preference I suppose. There is a wall or limits that the limbs can be strained to Especially with stains or full recurves. I would back my recurves for safety too. Hope this helps.
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Selfbow
Beautiful - did you heat treat it to the same form as the bamboo backed one.
On looks alone it should beat the competition!
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Can’t remember but I think so. The Boo backed comes off the caul. But sometimes I will tweek the selfbows to my desire. The heat treat happened while forming the bow on the caul. I sometimes go back and heat treat the blank at brace. I should keep better records as I remember less with age.🤠
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I think without question recurves have a higher potential when looking at top-performing bows. But in real life examples more often than not recurves add stress to the bow and that creates more set and they end up at about the same speed as an R/D bow. When I was first starting out I would often recurve bows that lost too much reflex or took a bit of set. I never gained anything from it and usually lost. A recurve has to be designed as a recurve from the start for better results.
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Not sure about performance but it does make the smoother to shoot with less stack at least it does for me. ;)
Pappy
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Putting enough width on the inner limbs to handle it is the key far as I'm concerned.Holding reflex over the long haul takes a lot of practice.
The outer limbs don't don't need the width as they don't carry the load as much at full draw.
For flat bows the width opens the arrow pass channel to being more center shot.
Can't explain it any better than that.
Pushing the envelope on bows is when you find out the differences between woods and the differences within it's own species.
It's been said before many times.While tillering listening to the wood.
Of course it's not always a success,but making the same thing over and over does not teach you more either.
When attempting these adventures a certain amount of self initiative is needed.You can't be afraid to fail.
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My understanding is that the main point of static curves is to reduce string pinch on a shorter bow, thus making it more forgiving. Correct?
It will reduce nock pinch some, but the most impactful result is that the string angle will be lower at any given draw length, so the stack will be significantly reduced…yes, allowing for shorter bows not stacking like mad. And if the mass necessary to keep the curves static does not reduce speed as much as the speed gained by the tips being forward, then “performance” would be enhanced…if by performance, you mean speed.
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I know that this is one of those questions where someone can invariably say “It depends … on the wood, the tiller, the mass etc…”
So let’s just say you execute everything perfectly with great bow wood …. Does recurving a self bow gain you significant performance?
Or would heat treating a bow into a reflex deflex profile be more appropriate/ easier to execute?
I might as well throw my $0.02 in as well...
The biggest indicator of performance (in terms of energy storage, which is the potential performance) seems to be where the tips are in relation to the handle. The farther forward the tips, the more energy is stored. So, if you keep the tips in the same location how they get there doesn't seem to matter that much. Whether you reflex the whole limb or use recurve tips or an R/D profile the end result will be similar and will result in similar stresses in the bow. They won't be identical, but they will be all in the same ballpark.
What recurves mostly do is provide a smoother draw with less stacking, which can be a significant benefit all on its own. A lot of people also like the look of recurves and there is nothing wrong with caring about the aesthetics of your bow design as well as the performance.
Mark
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Putting enough width on the inner limbs to handle it is the key far as I'm concerned.Holding reflex over the long haul takes a lot of practice.
The outer limbs don't don't need the width as they don't carry the load as much at full draw.
For flat bows the width opens the arrow pass channel to being more center shot.
Can't explain it any better than that.
Pushing the envelope on bows is when you find out the differences between woods and the differences within it's own species.
It's been said before many times.While tillering listening to the wood.
Of course it's not always a success,but making the same thing over and over does not teach you more either.
Spot on Ed!
When attempting these adventures a certain amount of self initiative is needed.You can't be afraid to fail.
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After reading Jim Hamms' thoughts years ago and after making them I believe it is true.
Getting the best of both worlds with wood in a long bow and a recurve a 62" to 64" bow fits.
With the recurves getting shorter as the bow becomes shorter overall.
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I've made a handful of recurve bows and frankly I haven't discerned any performance improvement over my go to design which is a straight bow with slightly reflexed tips. That said, recurves are helpful in reducing stack when building very short bows. A nicely executed recurve bow is easy to look at.