Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on December 09, 2022, 12:05:08 pm
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a few threads ago some expressed interest in short draw performance,, I took some notes making bows a while back,,and found sometimes the shorter draw shoots harder than some would think so am looking at my notes to post a few results,,,I did find that shooting the bow through a chrono even at very short draws gave me a good indication of what a bow might do at desired draw,,
my first example is from 2016,, its an osage bow,, stave bout 10 years old,, length 69 inches,, intended draw for a friend(jeffer) 29 or 29 1/2,,, I posted this bow but cant remember the name of the thread,,it says in my notes the stave was holding 3 to 4 inches of reflex,,
ok first test the bow was 44#@20 inches,,,148fps with 480 grain arrow,,,
then as I tillered it out,,49#@22 inches 156 fps with 486 grain arrow,, you can see the bow shooting harder with increased power stroke,, ok at 24 inches of draw,,53#@ 24 inches and 486 grain arrow 167 fps,,,
ok even though the bow is really to long for a short draw,, it is showing that it could shoot a hunting weight arrow very well,,at this point I put a rawhide back on the bow,, and it still performed very well out to the 29 inch draw,,but could have made a nice shooting bow from 24 inches out,,, I have found that alot of bows in the tillering process start to shoot really well once to 24 or 25 inches of draw,, and at that draw are under very little strain.. or not taking much set,,, ok thats the first example I have some more notes of some sinew bows,, that I will post later,, if anyone can tell me how to find that post I would like to see it,,
I wanted to add, that alot of the time we are disappointed in the results,, its not because of the process or skill,, but wood can vary sometimes and its about the material,, or string,, or moisture content or other factors,, not the process or skill,, this stave is a great example,, the natural reflex really helped ,,,Im not sure if heated in reflex is as effective,, anyway,, just saying for new guys, dont be so hard on yourself,, guys getting consistant great results have worked decades,,,to achieve that consistency,, and know how to pick wood that will do it,, :)
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Interesting subject Brad. My draw is about 25 1/2" with natural bows so I'm very interested in your findings. I'll agree that a particular stave can make the difference. The Osage bow I usually hunt with definitely has an velocity edge over other Osage bows I've built of similar design.
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I think it is so interesting,, I have a black locust bow that shoots about 150 at 20 inches of draw,, its really short all the wood I had,, holds only bout 1 inch reflex with thin layer of sinew,,,it would kill a deer,, if I could hit one with it,, Ill post a photo later,,
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That was a very interesting post Brad and mirrors what I have observed. My draw is 26" I am comfortable at 25". That's where I will start tillering them to.
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Brad, very nice post. Jawge
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150 fps is plenty fast to kill a deer with a 400 to 450 gr arrow. I have mentioned this before on here , but it bares mentioning it again. Just this year my son killed a nice buck with one of my horse bows. It chronied 135 fps with his bow arrow combo. It is a string follow bow. He shoots it accurate at 15 yds. He killed the buck at 11yds. The arrow penetrated 11 to 13 inches in the vitals, and the deer expired with in 60 yds. Shot placement trumps speed ,but when you have both you have a real winner.
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yes that deer was better test than a chrono,, (SH)
thank you Jawge and Badger,, Im gonna post some more results going over the notes now
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a few threads ago some expressed interest in short draw performance,, I took some notes making bows a while back,,and found sometimes the shorter draw shoots harder than some would think so am looking at my notes to post a few results,,,I did find that shooting the bow through a chrono even at very short draws gave me a good indication of what a bow might do at desired draw,,
my first example is from 2016,, its an osage bow,, stave bout 10 years old,, length 69 inches,, intended draw for a friend(jeffer) 29 or 29 1/2,,, I posted this bow but cant remember the name of the thread,,it says in my notes the stave was holding 3 to 4 inches of reflex,,
ok first test the bow was 44#@20 inches,,,148fps with 480 grain arrow,,,
then as I tillered it out,,49#@22 inches 156 fps with 486 grain arrow,, you can see the bow shooting harder with increased power stroke,, ok at 24 inches of draw,,53#@ 24 inches and 486 grain arrow 167 fps,,,
ok even though the bow is really to long for a short draw,, it is showing that it could shoot a hunting weight arrow very well,,at this point I put a rawhide back on the bow,, and it still performed very well out to the 29 inch draw,,but could have made a nice shooting bow from 24 inches out,,, I have found that alot of bows in the tillering process start to shoot really well once to 24 or 25 inches of draw,, and at that draw are under very little strain.. or not taking much set,,, ok thats the first example I have some more notes of some sinew bows,, that I will post later,, if anyone can tell me how to find that post I would like to see it,,
I wanted to add, that alot of the time we are disappointed in the results,, its not because of the process or skill,, but wood can vary sometimes and its about the material,, or string,, or moisture content or other factors,, not the process or skill,, this stave is a great example,, the natural reflex really helped ,,,Im not sure if heated in reflex is as effective,, anyway,, just saying for new guys, dont be so hard on yourself,, guys getting consistant great results have worked decades,,,to achieve that consistency,, and know how to pick wood that will do it,, :)
All true Brad.
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Steve I liked your design on the short bow your building.Ive found the longer bows do better with the added draw length in the broadhead distances. But in flight Short bows seam to Do better. Steve it might have something to do with what we have noticed in the past where set starts raising its ugly head at about 22-24”. So if we make the short bow with no set and put a light arrow in it the Majic happens. I have been after flight records for years with the longer bows to no avail. So this next year my flight bows are going to get shorter. Please keep the results coming.
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Thanks to Brad for posting that info, it really helps to build up the knowledge base with actual numbers on these things.
Mark
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Real Tested
55l bs/ 26 Osage recurve with bamboo backing (53" bow length) with a 8,5 gpp arrow 175fps.
45 lbs / 27 deflex static recurve Ironwood with ash backing by MSL (60" length) with a 10gpp arrow: 180fps
55lbs / 27 Osage recurve sinew backing (56" length) with a 9gpp arow: 175fps
55lbs / 26 Osage selfbow by K. Vögele (58" length) with a 9 gpp arrow 183 fps
45lbs / 27 Hickory selfbow (59" length) with a 10gpp arrow 170fps
The last two years I have shoot the Hickory selfbow and I enjoy to hit the target more than to shoot fast in the nirvana....
and with a good fitted arrow I hit the target with all bows.....
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thank you Chumash,, for that great info,, I appreciate the effort to post for us,,
ok here is my second example,, the bow is not that fast,, but I did start shooting at 20 inches of draw and have some notes on it,, it was from a belly cut osage that was a little ragged, ,and I was not sure it would even make a bow,, it was about 1 inch wide,, I put rawhide on it because some of the edges looked bad,, but didnt have enough wood to rasp them smooth,, ok
the bow was 56 inches knock to knock with rawhide back,, in my experience the rawhide didnt really slow the bows down, I think the string you use has more effect on that than a good thin backing,,in this case I dont think this peace of wood would have made a bow without it,,
54#@ 20 inches and would shoot a 500 grain arrow 144 fps,, this is with b50 string,, never tested it with fast flight that I can see
59#@23 inches 151 fps with 500 grain arrow
60#@25 inches 170 fps with 500 grain arrow,,
sometimes I got lazy and didnt bother to make an arrow that was 10 gpp,, and back in the day, most people shot a 500 grain arrow cause that was what Tim was shooting in the design chapter,,
but a hunting weight arrow going 170 fps is really deadly,,i still have this bow I made it in 2015,, it has taken some set and I think its probably lost some speed,,but shoots well,, the width of the bow just wouldnt handle the 60#,, just not enough wood there,,thats how we learn,,
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59#@23 inches 151 fps with 500 grain arrow
60#@25 inches 170 fps with 500 grain arrow,,
This really demonstrates the effect that a longer draw has. Only a 1# weight increase, but almost 20fps more speed with the same arrow. Do you have any pictures of this bow?
Mark
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Im looking at my notes,, it does seem like I made a mistake,, somewhere, ,but the the final weight is 60# at 25,, maybe I overdrew the bow on the last measurement,, not sure, but thats what I wrote down,, maybe I had swithed to a fast flight on the last shot something,, I have in my notes that I re tested the bow again on june 26 with 478 grain arrow(first test was november,, so several months later) and it shot 170fps,, so I have a feeling it might be a combination of how far I pulled the bow,, and accurate weight etc,, shooter error,, (-S
yes I have a picture of the bow,, let me find it
Ok I have a feeling that when I pulled it to 25 inches,, it had not been shot much at that draw,, so was a pretty fresh reading,, and probably settled in to a less dramatic increase,, I dont have that in my notes,, but have a feeling that accounts for some of the increase,,Maybe my releasse was better that day,,
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bow pics
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ok this is a sinew bow I started in 2015 and did shoot it at 20 inches of draw,, 56 inch bow
it was about 50#@ 20 inches and would shoot a 498 grain arrow 143fps
then at 22 inches and 53# with dacron string 153 fps,, and with fast flight at that draw 158 fps,,
56# at 23 inches and 166 fps with same arrow,,
I tillered this bow out to 26 inches and it shot a 500 grain arrow 180 fps(9.09gpp) ,, it was 55#@26 inches,, this was in 2017 that I re tested,, but I have found once a sinew bow settles in, it usually shoots about the same unless you put it in front of the swamp cooler or it gets rained on,, :)
some of the 46 inch bows I exerimented with shot really well at the short draws,, so can see why some were used for short range bufflalo hunts and such,, I could get a hunting weight arrow to go 170 or 180,, enough to kill a buffalo with less than 60# draw,, I didnt experiment with lighter weights much, but feel like a 40# 25 inch draw bow could easily shoot a 400 grain arrow 160 fps,, probaly more with sinew and reflex,, I might try that next time,, I just hate it when people get discouraged with their(short draw),, a Sioux warrior would have said your draw was to long at 25 inches, isnt it all relative,, (-S
I will add shortly after that last test I was so happy with,, the sinew fell off that bow,,well the bow was not broken,, so I bent recurves into it and was going to sinew it again,, still sittling there waiting for me,, it will be interesting to see if the recurved version will out shoot the straight tip version,, right,, :NN
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for us cheapskates, this chrono data is welcome.
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yes no need to get one,, if you have a friend with one,, :D
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Yes, that is very true...
and, as well, Brad, you mention hunting weight arrow, and I think this is maybe Badger's suggested formula for testing speed on shorter draws, but I recall this formula:
(your specific draw for the bow divided by 28) x bow poundage x 10,
so a 25" bow at 54 is (25/28) X 54 x 10 = 482 grains.
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I think the arrow shot out of the 23 inch draw bows was about 460 grains,, i didnt keep good records on that,, but it was about 23 iches long,,and was I think hickory or dogwood ok it was maple,,,,so it was heavy for the length,, but when you think about it,, at 23 inches you start to get some good performance,,especially if the bow is short, Im really awful at math,, so I just go with what the chrono tells me,, when the number comes up.... I go ohhh,, thats nice,,
anything over 400 grains going fast,, is a hunting weight arrow for me,, 170s,, the 23 inch arrows I made from dogwood were in the 500 grain range
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ok this next bow I take you way back in time to a humid 100 degree time in Texas 1999 bow,, when peopel say sinew is no good in hot humid,, its just not true,
the bow is 52 inches nock to nock,,
first test temp 100,,sinew applied july 24, aug 10th test,, bow pulling 55@24,,500 grain arrow 170 fps,, and 380 grain arrow 187 fps,,
ok as you can imagine the sinew is gonna cure more, and I have more notes on that to come,,this is with B 50 string, I dont think I even knew what fast flight was back then,, ;D
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Brad I just put that 460 grain arrow into that formula....formula said 460,
so "good intuition" on that :D
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I have a sinew backed hide glue black locust bow that is 48 lbs, at 24 inches of draw, and 52 inches long.. The strongest, and fastest short bow that I have built to date. I can't get it to full draw now, but back when I could I shot 430 gr arrows at 160 fps with a 10 strand B55 string. It was a bear to pull to full draw, so I gave up on heavy poundage short bows, but I have built dozens of short bows in the 20 to 40 lb class. Jim Hamm claims the Pawnee built 45 to 50 inch long Osage bows that were up to 70 lb draw bows, and that they could have been Olympic weight lifters. That would have been way to much for me even on my best day as a young man.
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thanks guys let me organize my notes and more to come,, I wish I had been more detailed at the time,, but at least I have some notes and some things make sense,, and some patterns emerge,, even after 20 years,,
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Brad most native Indian people where pretty short so I can also understand them having shorter draws. And shooting from a horse of course the draw was shorter , faster, and more demanding. Them guys where bad asses.
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Brad most native Indian people where pretty short so I can also understand them having shorter draws. And shooting from a horse of course the draw was shorter , faster, and more demanding. Them guys where bad asses.
I don't think Indians had horses until well after the white man arrived.
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well ok and no chrongraphs,, how did they do it,, ;D
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No mention of draw length shooting pinch finger style, so it could have been they were shooting a 70 lb bow with a very short draw at 40 to 55 lbs. with more fire power, or not. Some tribes did shoot a mod 3 under finger style that would give much better leverage. None of them shot through a chrony though ,so I am off topic. Sorry.
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its all good Bassman, if its about shooting a bow,, you good,,i reallly appreciated that about the heavier bows, and learning about that,, :)
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ok to continue on the 1999 bow,, by sept 19 a few weeks later the bow went up to 64@ 25,,it would shoot a 500 grain arrow 181 fps,, with a b50 string,,thats as far as my notes go,, I did hunt with that bow and actually shot an arrow that was lighter than the 500 grain,, it was quite effective on whitetail,, it was my favorite hunting bow,, when I moved to new mexico,, I was practicing with it one day and dry fired it,, It literally exploded in half,, I still have the pieces but had some wonderful memories hunting with that bow on Jim Hamms place,,Tim Baker was there on one hunt,, Im pretty sure I saw an alien space ship sitting at the campfire one night,, ok I ramble,, but the main point I wanted to make about this bow was,, even in hot humid conditions,, a sinew bow can be very effective,, and a shorter draw can shoot really hard,, thanks for all the input enjoy your shooting what ever draw you have and even if you have a rest,,,, ;D
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Brad, my group used to meet in Pasadena once a month. One of the guys in our group seldom tillered his bows beyond about 21" yet they were singing arrows as fast as the longer draw bows. The only thing that could explain that is #1 force draw curve goes down with set and hysteresis goes up. They start dropping off rapidly once set starts happening, even small amounts of set. The one I just finished the other day I can't draw because I haven't shot in a few years. But I did test the force draw curve and I know the approx efficiency of the short bows. I am pretty sure it will shoot in the 170's.
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wow thats amazing, really cool info,, :) have you shot the bow at like 20 or 22 inches,, ??
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wow thats amazing, really cool info,, :) have you shot the bow at like 20 or 22 inches,, ??
No, my shoulder is out, and I can't draw hardly anything. If I spend a few days tugging on bows I should be able to get it working again.
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ok heal up soon,, it will be fun to see what it does :)
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Brad... would loved to have met Tim Baker, and Jim Hamm. When you get old ,and haven't shot for a while the short bows can be plain nasty to pull, and shoot accurate if they are heavy draw bows. At my age I am having fun shooting 64 inch target bows at 35lbs. 25 inch draw indoors at 20 meters. Cherish your youth guys . It leaves you faster than you can imagine.
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yes they are challenging,, I can only pull about 50 at 23 at the most,, sometimes I want to try to pull them further,, to see what they will do,, but have to take the weight down,,
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All this short bow talk has kind of revived my interest. I started playing around with some numbers today and realistically I think a 24" draw bow can hit 180, I would set the holy grail at 184 with 10 grains per pound arrow. DCM hit the holy grail at 28. Might be fun to see who gets to 184 first. Might take weeks and it might take months but I think it would be interesting. I am starting to think a lot of bows we are designing for 28" draws are actually designed for 24" draws.
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What design would you use, and what wood at what weight bow to ring up those numbers? I am curios.
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Im just guessing,,Im sure Badger can make some pretty close calculations,,,something in the 60 inch range for self bow,,
might even be ok for sinew bow if tillered with stiffer handle section, I dont know,, wood,, yew hickory or osage,,elm,,what ever the best stave was, not so much the wood,,I just would have to start making and see,,
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I think I would go between 56" and 60". The shorter bows do have a distinct edge in efficiency. I think a Mark St Louis design would have the best chance of hitting that but I would not rule out a longbow with 4" of reflex. If I went with a longbow I would probably go between 60 and 62, If I went with a recurve 54 to 58. It might be fun to establish some holy grails for different types of bows. Self or laminated, recurve or longbow etc. Make them kind of hard to get but not impossible. Once they hit the holy grail it moves up one notch.
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I don't think I would want to move it up until about 5 guys hit it.
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What draw weight bow? 35lb with 350 gr arrow. 40lb bow with 400 gr arrow, 45lb bow with 450 gr arrow ,50 lb bow with 500 gr arrow. etc.
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What draw weight bow? 35lb with 350 gr arrow. 40lb bow with 400 gr arrow, 45lb bow with 450 gr arrow ,50 lb bow with 500 gr arrow. etc.
exactly 10 grains per pound and always based on a 1 3/4" handle section.