Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on April 13, 2025, 06:01:05 pm

Title: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 13, 2025, 06:01:05 pm
Just starting to bend this bow.  I am taking it slow, bordering on timid, because I really want this one to be my new hunting bow and I don't want to blow it up like the last one.  Right now, pulling 35# at 8" on the long string.  Target weight is 55#@27". 

It looks to me like the right limb (which will probably end up being the top) is stiffer than the left, but they're the same length and they're both hitting the 8" line.  What's happening there?

I must admit I'm procrastinating here...should probably just go ahead and pull it to 55#.  But I am really worried about blowing this one up.  Once bitten, and all that...Anyway, enough about my emotional baggage.   ;D  What do you think?

(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1741-jpeg.365435/)
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: Hamish on April 13, 2025, 07:33:22 pm
Your issue is the bow looks like it is tipping in the cradle, slightly downwards on the right side. This makes you think the limbs are bending the same distance, but if you balanced it more evenly in the cradle it would show the right limb is bending slightly less as it is stiffer.

I would correct the limb stiffness before pulling it any further, if you insist the limb on the right to be the top limb. You could also assign the left limb as the top limb and the problem resolves itself.


I would get it to a low to medium brace height, and exercise slightly and see how the limbs register, then assess from there.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 13, 2025, 08:20:28 pm
I think you're right, Hamish.  I put a splinter under the right side of the handle, and it is clear that the right limb is stiffer now.  Put a few licks on the left side handle and now it's sitting level.  It's always the little stuff.  ha ha

I'm not committed to the right limb being the top; it just felt that way for some reason.  If I'm going for a positive tiller, I want the top limb bending about 1/8 to 1/2" more than the bottom at brace, is that correct?  Getting lots of contradictory info on that from the interwebs.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 13, 2025, 08:46:17 pm
Dropping this here for my own reference:  I just watched a Kramer Ammons vid that says at full draw, the top limb should be only bending about 1/2" more.  So that's a pretty tiny difference, and I probably just need them bending fairly evenly at this stage.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: TimBo on April 14, 2025, 12:07:22 pm
My understanding of positive tiller is that it's something to keep in mind, but how the bow feels and it shoots is much more important since it's not flubberglass and natural materials are quirky.  And yes, I would say just go for getting a good even bend at this point. Looks like it will be a cool bow!
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: superdav95 on April 14, 2025, 02:16:35 pm
Ya what Hamish said is bang on imo.  Mid limb on the right is little stiff compared to left.  Levelling up the bow on your tree helps visualize too like said.  This should turn out to be a sweet looking bow!
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: bjrogg on April 14, 2025, 09:05:02 pm
Ya what Hamish said is bang on imo.  Mid limb on the right is little stiff compared to left.  Levelling up the bow on your tree helps visualize too like said.  This should turn out to be a sweet looking bow!


I’ll second that Dave.

Bjrogg
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 15, 2025, 12:50:01 am
Yep.  Got them bending evenly now and I'll start pulling more weight.  Thanks, guys.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 15, 2025, 04:28:09 am
I love that snake skin you got on there! And those recurve look beautiful. I hope this bow becomes a deer slayer!!

I see your target weight and draw is 55# at 27" i can't really tell in the picture how long the bow is but I'm assuming it's at least 55"? If shorter than that sadly you won't be getting a 27" draw. Juniper and sinew are great but they don't do well in overstressed builds(I'm assuming you've had an explosion?) They can blow up so violently hahaha one of mine blew up and left a huge gash in my nose. Anyway one more thing is that if it is only 55" you may want to get the handle section to SLOWLY start bending a little more. I say slowly because it is so very easy to go too far. If 55" you'll just want every part of that bow bending evenly to get your full draw length,otherwise...explosion. if it's closer to 58" you can probably get away with the tiller you have though.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 20, 2025, 10:35:05 pm
Pierce--it's 61" ntn, so I think I should be OK.

Here is is now.  Looks like the curves are pulling out more than I wanted, but at least they seem to be pulling fairly evenly.  This thing is really acting like it wants to spit an arrow.  Need to get it to full draw, but don't want to rush it.

Anybody have any thoughts or advice?

(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1746-jpeg.365796/)
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 20, 2025, 11:51:21 pm
I'm a little worried about how much the recurves are pulling straight, especially on the left side.  Is that OK?   And it looks like I need to still get the right mid  bending a little more.  Amazing the things I can see in a photo that aren't obvious looking at the real thing.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: Pappy on April 21, 2025, 09:21:20 am
Looks like right limb 5/6 inches out from fad to an inch or so before the re flexed tips. Looking pretty good so far. :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: superdav95 on April 21, 2025, 06:15:36 pm
It’s slight but I’d agree with pappy.

Another consideration…. What draw length you at in last posted pic?   Hard to tell for sure but if you still have a few inches to go yet and still quite a bit over draw target weight then maybe getting the inners bending more to keep the tips from pulling out too much more.   Just a thought.  If you are close to draw length now then I might not mess with it too much.  Bend looks good.  Make the right one your bottom limb. 
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 21, 2025, 07:16:16 pm
It’s slight but I’d agree with pappy.

Another consideration…. What draw length you at in last posted pic?   Hard to tell for sure but if you still have a few inches to go yet and still quite a bit over draw target weight then maybe getting the inners bending more to keep the tips from pulling out too much more.   Just a thought.  If you are close to draw length now then I might not mess with it too much.  Bend looks good.  Make the right one your bottom limb.
The pic is at 21".  Going to take it to 27".  I'm afraid I'm actually going to come in below target weight.  It's only 35# at 23", and I was hoping for 55# @ 27".  Hope it doesn't come in too light for a hunting bow.  I think I'll go ahead and take it to full draw tonight and see where it's at.

Thanks for the help, guys.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 21, 2025, 08:13:56 pm
OK, got it to full draw and it didn't explode!  Got my heart pumping--I just knew it was going to blow up on me.  But not a snap, crackle, or pop.  Think I finally figured out how to get sinew to stick--maybe that fiasco with the dogbane last year wasn't a complete waste.

I'm a little disappointed that it came in at only 42#, so probably not powerful enough to hunt elk.  Can't just add another layer or two of sinew, because I decided to put the snake skin on it before I tillered it...dumb.
 
For all that, I'm pretty tickled though.  Limbs are nice and even, I really like the bend, and man, does it look sweet.  Going to go put a few arrows through it and see how it shoots. 

Then I'm going to have to build another one...I still have one more decent juniper stave, a big pile of sinew, and I'm sure I have another bull snake skin around here somewhere.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 21, 2025, 08:36:52 pm
It lives!
https://youtube.com/shorts/75Vx66IUVdg
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: bjrogg on April 21, 2025, 08:38:32 pm
Nice job Mr Badger

Bjrogg
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: Hamish on April 21, 2025, 08:42:37 pm
Yep, It looks real good. Well done.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: superdav95 on April 22, 2025, 02:33:34 pm
Ya that looks and sounds like a sweet shooter.  Well done indeed. 
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 24, 2025, 09:51:20 am
OK, got it to full draw and it didn't explode!  Got my heart pumping--I just knew it was going to blow up on me.  But not a snap, crackle, or pop.  Think I finally figured out how to get sinew to stick--maybe that fiasco with the dogbane last year wasn't a complete waste.

I'm a little disappointed that it came in at only 42#, so probably not powerful enough to hunt elk.  Can't just add another layer or two of sinew, because I decided to put the snake skin on it before I tillered it...dumb.
 
For all that, I'm pretty tickled though.  Limbs are nice and even, I really like the bend, and man, does it look sweet.  Going to go put a few arrows through it and see how it shoots. 

Then I'm going to have to build another one...I still have one more decent juniper stave, a big pile of sinew, and I'm sure I have another bull snake skin around here somewhere.

Hey you might be surprised with the power of sinew and juniper. It may shoot an arrow faster than you think. The draw weight doesn't matter at all compared to the speed it flings an arrow. Also adding more layer of sinew would only slow the bow down. It increases the draw weight but it adds weight and more mechanical friction. Take a rubber band for example. If you just stretch a rubber band further and shoot it it will go further than if you took a thicker rubber band and shot it. While you would have more force the thicker rubber band would have more inertia so it would resist that force more while also being understretched compared to the smaller rubber band

I got one of my deer this year with a 43# sinew backed juniper bow and the stone tipped arrow was sticking 8" out the other side. If I was using a steel broadhead it would have zipped all the way through.

One thing I would suggest trying is flinging an arrow through a chronograph with the same arrow on this bow and another bow that you would deem hunting weight. You may be surprised with the results. Here in North Dakota it is rather dry so juniper and sinew work amazing. It outperforms osage.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 24, 2025, 09:55:55 am
Oh yeah by the way my draw length is only 24". So your 42# bow with a 27" draw is going to shoot faster than my bow at a 24" draw and 43#. Your bow is beautiful! Don't give up on her she may be stronger than she seems. Let us know what you find out!
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 26, 2025, 06:57:42 pm
I took a look at the video and I found it takes your arrow .242 sec to get to the target from the bow. So if you were standing 10 yards away from the target then your arrow is traveling approximately 125 fps. Which isn't great but depending on the weight of your arrow it is still quite lethal. If you were 15 yards away from the target then that arrow wad traveling 180fps. How far were you from the target about?
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 26, 2025, 10:50:41 pm
Yeah, Pierce, it feels pretty fast for such a low draw weight.  I was about 12-13 yards out.  I don't have a chronograph or I'd find out for sure.  Need to get one, I guess.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 26, 2025, 10:52:06 pm
Thanks for the input, guys.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 26, 2025, 11:39:36 pm
Yeah, Pierce, it feels pretty fast for such a low draw weight.  I was about 12-13 yards out.  I don't have a chronograph or I'd find out for sure.  Need to get one, I guess.

Okay so your arrow is traveling about 155fps which sounds about right. That's about what I get out of mine of similar builds...that is PLENTY to take down practically anything. How heavy are your arrows?
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 26, 2025, 11:49:18 pm
I was shooting a few different ones that day to find the sweet spot.  I think that one was around 400-450 grains, something like that.  My elk arrows are 750, and they fly OK but are probably a little slower.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: pierce_schmeichel on April 27, 2025, 12:40:43 am
I was shooting a few different ones that day to find the sweet spot.  I think that one was around 400-450 grains, something like that.  My elk arrows are 750, and they fly OK but are probably a little slower.

Yeah it'll go a little slower. With that 700 gr arrow it will go about 130fps with 26 foot pounds of energy...that is more than enough to take down an elk, especially with steel points.You got a nice quick and powerful bow

If you are wanting an arrow to fly faster you could still use that 450 gr arrow. It has about 25 foot pounds of energy. Less inertia of course but it would still do the job on an elk. I might suggest using a 550 gr arrow it'll go about 145fps with 25.5 foot pounds of energy.

I find personally using juniper I am able to get faster arrow speeds with lower draw weights which in turn helps one shoot more accurately.  love juniper!!
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on April 30, 2025, 12:22:07 am
Thanks for the info, Pierce.  Looking forward to trying this with a chronometer...
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: bjrogg on May 01, 2025, 12:34:22 pm
Thanks for the info, Pierce.  Looking forward to trying this with a chronometer...

I’d like to thank you too Pierce. Interesting information and I agree with your assessment.

My first white tail bow kill was with an overbuilt HHB. The only bow I ever had opportunity to shoot through crono. It was flinging a 590 grain arrow a not real impressive 129 fps.

I remember worrying about the numbers. I was assured by some others on this site that I really respected that if I put the arrow where it needed to be that I would be happy with the results.

I practiced hard and by season I was shooting probably the best I ever have. I had a pass through and a short blood trail

Put one where it needs to be and I would guess that you will be happy with results.

Good luck. Either way it’s a nice bow.

Bjrogg
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on May 01, 2025, 02:37:45 pm
Thanks, BJ.  The only reason I worry about speed is that first of all, elk are big critters and I want good penetration (that's why my state has a draw-weight minimum for them), and second, the faster the arrow is going, the less chance of one reversing ends on me like that raghorn did last fall.  That was a bummer.


So, I'm already working on juniper/sinew/bullsnake 2.0, with the same design but heavier draw.  I will definitely finish this one and either keep it for deer and antelope or give it to somebody.
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: Bob Barnes on May 04, 2025, 12:53:45 pm
Great video that shows and excellent full draw tiller and a snappy shooter.  42#@27" is a perfect draw weight for hunting and will do the job.  Congrats.   :OK
Title: Re: Juniper/Sinew early tillering. What do you think?
Post by: WhistlingBadger on May 04, 2025, 11:22:40 pm
Thanks, Bob!  I finally got the finishing touches on it.  I'll get some photos taken and post them soon.