Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on May 13, 2025, 09:12:59 pm
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I know most of yall aren't very involved in flight shooting, but we all love to watch an arrow fly.Im sure most of us are guilty of having shot an arrow at 45 degrees to see how far it would go, and if you have, guess what? Welcome to flight shooting!
The capabilities of each bow for distance very greatly based on draw weight, length, and arrow weight. Find the proper combination and you can really be in for a long walk in what I like calling the oldest game known to man, human fetch.
For reference, most 50 pound bows will shoot a flight arrow between 200 and 300 yards. The current record is right around 350 yards for a self bow, which is what I am most interested in. I have a goal to shoot a flight arrow into the 400 yard mark. That would shatter the 50 pound record and the unlimited draw weight record.
This year for the flight shoot coming up at the last weekend of August, my goal is to build 3 high performance bows. One as a 35 pound proof of concept, a 50 pounder and a 90 pounder. I'll be updating this thread as I go along. Progress will be slow until July, when I'm able to take some time off of my contract job, and hit it hard and heavy.
These bows will do more than test limits of a wooden bows capabilities, they will challenge my craftsmanship and also test some theories I have on how to make any bow perform better.
So, stay tuned for updates and video links.
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Watching ! I’m still trying to hit 350 yds.🤠🤠🤠 but I’m looking to shoot a broadhead 260yds with a selfbow.
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If you build a 64 inch version of the bows I make, and pull it to 35 inches, you will absolutely blow way past 264. Arrow shafts will be your hardest part.
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Looking forward to this. My goal is to attend next year after some practice at home and building the equipment. What is the arrow length and weight you are trying to achieve for the shot?
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Looking forward to this. My goal is to attend next year after some practice at home and building the equipment. What is the arrow length and weight you are trying to achieve for the shot?
Arrow length is 23 inches, legal minimum for the event. Arrow weight will be whatever flies best, wish I had a better answer. 50 pound bows do well in the 170 to 220 grain range to give you a ballpark figure.
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Kevin you need to talk to Jim Davis if you want to make thee arrows longer. He makes a arrow repair that’s about three inches long that glued on to the taper tooled shaft. So taper tool your arrow and glue his piece of shaft on the end. It adds about 3-4” to the length. Pretty slick arrow repair for those of us that miss a lot .🤠🤠🤠
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watching with interest.
My PB is 341yards with a self Osage (the Osage was from Osage Outlaw when I visited the TN Classic).
I can't pull the heavy weights anymore, so I can't see myself bettering that.
I was testing a release aid that I made last Autumn with a heavy flight bow, it released before I was expecting and it gave my left elbow a huge jolt with the recoil (it made me yelp and say bad words ;D ), it's not been the same since. :(
Hey ho, none of us getting any younger I s'pose. ::)
Del
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I will be watching this. (-P
My wife, son dog and I drove almost 1500 miles to play with Arvin.
Never did get to watch the arrow fly for distance. I’m still looking forward to that some day.
It was worth the drive anyway
Good luck sleek.
Bjrogg
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Kevin I could be very wrong ! But if you have only 50# of energy in a35” draw well that’s what you have no matter how far you pull the arrow back. Now if you add 60 gr of arrow shaft by making the arrow longer you defeated your purpose so to speak. I think there is a happy place where the mass of the arrow and draw weight and length peaks. That’s why shorter bows with shorter arrows do better in flight. Now you take a 70 or a hundred pound bow it could be different I think mass ratio between arrows and draw length and weight might be the key to distance. But what does the related math guy know.🤠🤠🤠
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Arvin, if the bow was drawing 35" you would likely have about 62# stored energy. That would not be near enough to make up for the drag of an extra 10" of the arrow. Monuz seems to do pretty well at 30" for the hundred # bows but who is to say he wouldn't do better with shorter arrows? Hard to say. I know only about 230 fps is needed to hit 400 yards with a very well-tuned arrow. 300 fps will not reach 300 yards if the arrow is not tuned.
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If you build a 64 inch version of the bows I make, and pull it to 35 inches, you will absolutely blow way past 264. Arrow shafts will be your hardest part.
can we see the unbraced side view of that design? sounds radical.
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I’m watching this one too. Can’t wait to see what you come up with sleek!
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Here is a test bow pulling 35 pounds at 25 inches. The bow is 46 inches long along its curves.
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Great update Kevin! Looks awesome.
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This thread is part of this experiment. The lesson from this is that there is a minimum bend radius wood can make before it wants to split long ways due to a cupping effect. I am going to build another bow that includes stiffeners spaced down the bow limb almost exactly like frets on a guitar neck or railway ties on a track to guard against this cupping issue. If that has the desired effect, I'll start carving them into the bow like a relief carving as I tiller, that way its still a selfbow of one piece.
Another more simple idea is to remove the crown completely so its flat as a board on both sides. That may reduce the tendency for cupping as well.
One more idea is to make the belly convex to match whatever crown there is and hopefully stop the cupping. The problem with that is that its hard to distribute the compression forces across the belly evenly. This will likely end up causing compression frets and set.
Either way, lots to explore here. This is a poc of what im thinking about with the guitar frets.
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Great update Kevin! Looks awesome.
Thanks Ryan! Just trying to beat the bow you built years ago that won the contest for longest draw for its overall bow length! Haha.
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I think if the crossection wants to cup, there is nothing you can do to prevent it, but consider a flat back that cups creating high edges. those edges will have a bit more tension than the middle of the back, so if the back is crowned some any cupping might not raise the edge enough to cause trouble.
or just plan around the cupping effect.
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If you build a 64 inch version of the bows I make, and pull it to 35 inches, you will absolutely blow way past 264. Arrow shafts will be your hardest part.
can we see the unbraced side view of that design? sounds radical.
It didnt turn out as radical as I would have liked. Its split lengthwise in several spots while tillering which prevented me from applying the heat treat process I typically do. Its kept some reflex but none of the extra ai put into it. I blame the wood being likely too damp and not heat treated enough to hold the shape. It should have held the inch I put in it, it already had 1 inch naturally.
The reduced reflex is hurting my string tension and early draw weight. So, I dont expect much from this bow. But I will finish it and test it, trying again on a new stave.
Hopefully I'll figure out how to stop it from splitting.
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I think if the crossection wants to cup, there is nothing you can do to prevent it, but consider a flat back that cups creating high edges. those edges will have a bit more tension than the middle of the back, so if the back is crowned some any cupping might not raise the edge enough to cause trouble.
or just plan around the cupping effect.
Not bad ideas. This seems to be the only hurdle I have to test this design, so I'll give that a try too.
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Another more simple idea is to remove the crown completely so its flat as a board on both sides. That may reduce the tendency for cupping as well.
Flat rectangular cross sections cup very noticeably, so I doubt that will solve your problem. I think a slightly crowned back will give you the least amount of cupping, but that is just a gut feeling.
Mark
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Flat rectangular cross sections cup very noticeably, so I doubt that will solve your problem. I think a slightly crowned back will give you the least amount of cupping, but that is just a gut feeling.
Mark
I was thinking the same thing. A very slight crown might help.
How wide was this one? I’m really surprised this would happen in sound wood.
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This is 2 inches wide. The wood seemed sound but im not sure how dry it was. It cracked a lot when I put the heat to it for heat treat. That may be a factor. But this is the 3rd at least to do this.
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This is 2 inches wide. The wood seemed sound but im not sure how dry it was. It cracked a lot when I put the heat to it for heat treat. That may be a factor. But this is the 3rd at least to do this.
Yeah. 2” isn’t super wide IMO. If you look back at my red oak board bow recurve, it was 2.5” wide and had a similar bend. That one was super thin. I did crown the back slightly on that one.
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Really enjoying this thread thanks for sharing
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I got it back to a full 25 inch draw, the epoxy is doing its job holding it together. However its taken a full inch of set and thats unacceptable for a flight bow. It does shoot a 380 grain arrow 152 fps so its got what I'd call a low average speed. A good target bow or small game.
So, what happened? Too wide for its thickness, bending too tight a bend radius, and I think I had it bending too much in the inner limbs. As well as not being able to heat treat the bow the amount I like due to the glues intolerance to heat.
What am I going to do next? Well, Im going to build another 35 pounder but 50 inches long vs 48. The hope being the extra length will open up the bend radius just enough that it won't split. My normal bow length is 54, so im hoping I can make them shorter and harness benefits from the shorter length.
Here it is at full draw:
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It’ll be stave dependent but I’d go wider. I don’t think width is the issue here, especially in the inner limb where mass movement matters least.
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So, what happened? Too wide for its thickness,
not sure what you mean about "for it's thickness"
are you thinking thin and wide add to the cupping?
many short working limbed wide primitive bows often have lenticular crossections,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/stone-age-bows-lenticular-crossections-questions-a-t68624.html
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So, what happened? Too wide for its thickness,
not sure what you mean about "for it's thickness"
are you thinking thin and wide add to the cupping?
many short working limbed wide primitive bows often have lenticular crossections,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/stone-age-bows-lenticular-crossections-questions-a-t68624.html
Yeah Willie I believe any thickness will be too thin if its too wide. Im really struggling with the limits of osage at this point. I might need to change up to a different wood, one with an interlocking grain like Elm.
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So, what happened? Too wide for its thickness,
not sure what you mean about "for it's thickness"
are you thinking thin and wide add to the cupping?
many short working limbed wide primitive bows often have lenticular crossections,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/stone-age-bows-lenticular-crossections-questions-a-t68624.html
Do you think the lenticular cross section on shorter, wider bows is to avoid cupping? I've noticed the lenticular section on a lot of sinew-backed juniper bows. It would make sense. Sorry to get a little off topic; just something I've wondered about.
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So, what happened? Too wide for its thickness,
not sure what you mean about "for it's thickness"
are you thinking thin and wide add to the cupping?
many short working limbed wide primitive bows often have lenticular crossections,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/stone-age-bows-lenticular-crossections-questions-a-t68624.html
Do you think the lenticular cross section on shorter, wider bows is to avoid cupping? I've noticed the lenticular section on a lot of sinew-backed juniper bows. It would make sense. Sorry to get a little off topic; just something I've wondered about.
Makes sense to me. Kinda sorta like horn bows!
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Harry Drake and Flight Archery
I bought the book, Harry Drake and Flight Archery by Kay Koppeldrayer on E-bay, it had to be shipped over from the US.
If it is your area of interest, I thoroughly recommend it.
Flight is maybe a bit niche, and my particular interest within that niche is wooden bow, wooden arrow.
The book pulls together a wealth of biography and information not easily accessible elsewhere.
It's re-kindled my interest in flight and given areas for further work and experimentation.
The point of this post is to lay out those topics before I forget them.
I think I have a good candidate for a bow (my Osage flight bow) I also have ideas for further bow developments, some based on my previous bows. The main area that needs development is the arrows.
1. Short arrows for use with short draw bows or bows with overdraws. I need to make many more arrows.
2. Compressed wood for arrow shafts?
3. Release aid, flipper or mechanical.
4. yew bow with very solid substantial riser approx equal length to the limbs. Shoot through design.
Maybe with takedown style limbs (Yew limb reinforced with thread binding at root to allow fixing to (adjustable?) riser.
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Ordered mine last sunday :)
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Looks like a good book, but i'd have to know a lot more about it before ordering it. Costs Australian $75, then about another $70 for shipping downunder.
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I got a copy myself. Not too deep into it yet but it’s very good so far. Very much an interesting biography.
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I got a copy myself. Not too deep into it yet but it’s very good so far. Very much an interesting biography.
You'll need lots of strips of paper to use as bookmark for the odd snippets of vital info that are hidden in there!
Del
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Im half way to the salt flats at this point. My goal of going there to shoot a 90 pound has once again been thrwarted by my own abilities. I will instead be showing up with an 85 pounder. However this 85 came out with a very high energy storage and efficiency. It stores 88% of its drawn energy, anything 85% and up is great. This bow should shoot well as long as I do my job and made good arrows.
Ill be going with a few other bows as well. One special one by Super Dave. Arvin and I did a force draw chart on that bow last night. Its an amazing bow, storing just over 104% of its draw weight in energy. That is phenomenal on its own. I expect very impressive results from it at the salt flats.
400 yards is my goal, and im going to try to get there with my 85 pounder. I also made an 88 pounder ( again missing my 90 pounder goal but this time due to the limits of the wood ) and it will be shot by a very well known and respected archer all over the world, a Hungarian named Monus. I hope he has success with this bow as well.
However I also believe a 50 pound bow can get that 400 yard shot. Lessons this year will be applied to next year's bows and hopefully a 50 capable of going the distance will be made.
All of this would be made easier if the bow were the only challenge. The problem is, a bow is useless without an equally good arrow made and tuned to the bow. I have learned that an arrow being light weight as possible is not what a bow needs for its fastest shot. An arrow actually needs to be a certain weight and too light will actually slow the arrow down. Many years ago in here I described a bow limb wave theory. This new to me discovery on the weight requirements for an arrow support that theory. Ill report more during and after the event.
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... Arvin and I did a force draw chart on that bow last night. Its an amazing bow, storing just over 104% of its draw weight in energy. That is phenomenal on its own.
Hi, I'm confused as to how you measure the stored energy ( area under the force draw curve?)...
and how it can be more than 100% ( maybe because there is energy stored in the bow from when it was braced?)
(I'm not trying to argue, just seeking clarification).
Del :)
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You might be on to something with those frets but for a slightly different reason. I believe they could reduce vibration and distortion which is the biggest loss the bows have. Shorter working limbs or shorter bows is how we currently deal with it. You might be able to make a longer bow with very little vibration.
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The lighter an arrow is, the faster it will shoot. However, how far they will shoot is another story. tuning becomes more critical as arrow weights go down and it becomes harder to maintain a favorable drag co-efficient. Josef shot an 88# ELb 530 yards in practice but shot the bow out. In competition, he still broke a record at 450 yards with a fast flite string.
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... Arvin and I did a force draw chart on that bow last night. Its an amazing bow, storing just over 104% of its draw weight in energy. That is phenomenal on its own.
Hi, I'm confused as to how you measure the stored energy ( area under the force draw curve?)...
and how it can be more than 100% ( maybe because there is energy stored in the bow from when it was braced?)
(I'm not trying to argue, just seeking clarification).
Del :)
I use the formula 1/2(A+B)÷12=X
A and B are the weight at consecutive draw lengths. I do a force draw chart, starting at a 7 inch brace. Since 7 is brace its pulling 0 pounds. The chart looks like this: first column is inches of draw, second is weight in pounds.
7:0
8:2
9:9.8
10:13.4
Plugged into the formula it looks like this:
1/2(0+2)÷12= .083 foot pounds of energy
Then I move down from inches 7 to 8, to 8 to 9
1/2(2+9.8)÷12= 4.92
This is repeated all the way down the FD chart. When completed, I add up all the foot pounds of energy stored in each inch of draw. That tells me total amount of energy the bow stores when drawn. Then I divide that number by the draw weight of the bow to get a percentage of efficiency: how much energy the bow stores vs how much it draws. Compounds are always over 100% and a good self bows will be 85% or higher.
I hope that helps you out.
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... Arvin and I did a force draw chart on that bow last night. Its an amazing bow, storing just over 104% of its draw weight in energy. That is phenomenal on its own.
I use the formula 1/2(A+B)÷12=X
A and B are the weight at consecutive draw lengths. I do a force draw chart, starting at a 7 inch brace. Since 7 is brace its pulling 0 pounds. The chart looks like this: first column is inches of draw, second is weight in pounds.
7:0
8:2
9:9.8
10:13.4
Plugged into the formula it looks like this:
1/2(0+2)÷12= .083 foot pounds of energy
Then I move down from inches 7 to 8, to 8 to 9
1/2(2+9.8)÷12= 4.92
This is repeated all the way down the FD chart. When completed, I add up all the foot pounds of energy stored in each inch of draw. That tells me total amount of energy the bow stores when drawn. Then I divide that number by the draw weight of the bow to get a percentage of efficiency: how much energy the bow stores vs how much it draws. Compounds are always over 100% and a good self bows will be 85% or higher.
I hope that helps you out.
Cheers, that clarifies it :)
Del
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Whelp, sadly my 400 yard shot did not happen this year. My bow is more than capable, my strings dont blow up anymore, now its my arrows that are the limiting factor, and possibly my release. The trick is to get that arrow off the bow without any interference with the bow. My fetching keep striking the bow and crumpling them. That causes them to act like speed brakes vs vanes.
In other news, my wife shot one of my prototype 35 pounder bows to a distance of 253 yards. The record was 217 yards. Thays a long was for a 35 pounder to go and it does glfurther my confidence in my bow design. Despite her being new to flight archery, she has already taken the world record twice in the 35 pound class. I think with the perfect shot and arrow returning she may be able to hit 300 yards. That would be an incredible goal for her to reach.
Next year's goal, 400+ with a 90 and a 50 pounder, and 300 with a 35.
So I have many arrows to make for a 35, a 50, and a 90 pound bow, as well as new bows for all those categories. Hopefully I can learn some lessons from this year and apply them effectively. Next year is already coming fast!
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Whelp, sadly my 400 yard shot did not happen this year. My bow is more than capable, my strings dont blow up anymore, now its my arrows that are the limiting factor, and possibly my release. The trick is to get that arrow off the bow without any interference with the bow. My fetching keep striking the bow and crumpling them. That causes them to act like speed brakes vs vanes.
In other news, my wife shot one of my prototype 35 pounder bows to a distance of 253 yards. The record was 217 yards. Thays a long was for a 35 pounder to go and it does glfurther my confidence in my bow design. Despite her being new to flight archery, she has already taken the world record twice in the 35 pound class. I think with the perfect shot and arrow returning she may be able to hit 300 yards. That would be an incredible goal for her to reach.
Next year's goal, 400+ with a 90 and a 50 pounder, and 300 with a 35.
So I have many arrows to make for a 35, a 50, and a 90 pound bow, as well as new bows for all those categories. Hopefully I can learn some lessons from this year and apply them effectively. Next year is already coming fast!
There's something to live for! Good luck buddy, I'm cheering for ya.
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The scenery out there is really amazing. Here is a shot off all my gear Id brought to test and compete with.
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nice bows.... cool pic
I have many arrows to make.....
theres gotta be a way to test shoot arrows before the annual competition.
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I wish I had a spot to shoot. But the math equals out to a potential 486 yard shot and I just cant find a clearing big enough. I spine test them, and I static balance them, and I can tie a string around the dynamic center of balance and spin the arrow over my head like a control line airplane to test for how well it balances in flight, but thats really it.
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Here's a few action shots from the event. My wife is shooting her 35 pounders, and me with my 85. The guy in the crazy wolf outfit, his name is Jozsef Monus, one of the best archers in the world, and he is shooting my 85 in a practice round. Thats him at the point he released the arrow on accident, and it landed 10 yards from the world record distance. With proper arrows and string this bow can break the record and sail well into the 400 yard territory.
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Congrats to you and your wife on the record. The bows look awesome. I’ve only just started making broadhead arrows and it seems so tricky. Can’t imagine flight arrows.
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I wish I had a spot to shoot......potential 486 yard
if a guy had a way recover arrows at fifty yards or less
you could fine tune the clean release and fletching issues
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Thing is, these arrows are .300" thick, moving at speeds over 250 fps. They like to explode when hitting a target. If I could find a target that allows these arrows to sink in and not break that would help. Paper tuning would get me leaps and bounds into getting good flight. Anyone know of a good target for stopping flight arrows?
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I have heard of using large plastic bags loosely stuffed with the lightweight plastic grocery bags for a backstop
a screen in front of it for paper tuning sound like a good idea.
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I've been working on flight arrows to try and get the 400yards, only 20" arrows for a 23" draw.
Dunno if this video I made will be of interest?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNa585HBnYg
Del
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I've been working on flight arrows to try and get the 400yards, only 20" arrows for a 23" draw.
Dunno if this video I made will be of interest?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNa585HBnYg
Del
I checked on the Alaska Frontier Archery website for their Forgewood arrow shafting, but it appears nothing has been updated since 2018 (eons in internet years). I wonder if they are still producing Forgewood shafts?
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I've been working on flight arrows to try and get the 400yards, only 20" arrows for a 23" draw.
Dunno if this video I made will be of interest?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNa585HBnYg
Del
Every video you make is of interest Del! That one I did particularly enjoy. I like your hinged board jig, I will have one of those in my shop very soon. How much did that pine shaft end up weighing? In the states our arrows may not be less than 23 inches long for primitive class. I wish we could shoot the 20 inch arrows you are making.
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Im getting excited to start making next years unlimited primitive flight bow. This one was 85 pounds, but only because I missed my weight by 5. Im hoping to make this one 90#@25. I learned that I can decrown a stave and it will hold up to the stress without issue so that should increase my available staves with high enough quality to make the bow. I have over 7 hours of recording time on my phone from making this last one. I need to sit down and make that video and pot it so I can start my next one.
By the way, if anyone wants to make a video 30 minutes long or less on a subject related to this forum, let me know what it is, and I will post it on the PA TV.
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Every video you make is of interest Del! That one I did particularly enjoy. I like your hinged board jig, I will have one of those in my shop very soon. How much did that pine shaft end up weighing? In the states our arrows may not be less than 23 inches long for primitive class. I wish we could shoot the 20 inch arrows you are making.
Cheers :)
I made 3 from compressed pine.
5.6mm diameter 167gn
6.3mm dia 259gn
6.5mm dia 319gn
Del
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I checked on the Alaska Frontier Archery website for their Forgewood arrow shafting, but it appears nothing has been updated since 2018 (eons in internet years). I wonder if they are still producing Forgewood shafts?
I think wayne at true shaft acquired Forgewood. Not sure about the production schedule tho.
I'm also experimenting with compressing wood using heat and pressure like was used to produce "forgewood" shafts back in the 70's 80's.
Can you share more about your experiments with compression, Del? If I recall, Forgewood utilized tapered blanks.
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I checked on the Alaska Frontier Archery website for their Forgewood arrow shafting, but it appears nothing has been updated since 2018 (eons in internet years). I wonder if they are still producing Forgewood shafts?
I think wayne at true shaft acquired Forgewood. Not sure about the production schedule tho.
I talked to the guy at Alaska Frontier Archery just the other night and he did sell the equipment to True Shaft in Canada. They've apparently shuttered the project. *sigh*
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I checked on the Alaska Frontier Archery website for their Forgewood arrow shafting, but it appears nothing has been updated since 2018 (eons in internet years). I wonder if they are still producing Forgewood shafts?
I think wayne at true shaft acquired Forgewood. Not sure about the production schedule tho.
I'm also experimenting with compressing wood using heat and pressure like was used to produce "forgewood" shafts back in the 70's 80's.
Can you share more about your experiments with compression, Del? If I recall, Forgewood utilized tapered blanks.
I've added more info and another pic to this blog post:-
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2025/09/wooden-flight-bow-arrows.html
Del
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I've added more info and another pic to this blog post:-
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2025/09/wooden-flight-bow-arrows.html
Del
Thanks for showing us more about your process.
looking at turkish flight arrows I see they were barrelled, I suppose to lighten the arrows where the stiffness was not needed on the outer thirds .
If stiffness in the center third can be accomplished by compressing the wood, one could "forge" an arrow of varying density by compressing a blank shaped like a long diamond.
in other words, an arrow of same diameter from end to end having lighter ends but stiffer midsection
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I've added more info and another pic to this blog post:-
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2025/09/wooden-flight-bow-arrows.html
Del
Thanks for showing us more about your process.
looking at turkish flight arrows I see they were barrelled, I suppose to lighten the arrows where the stiffness was not needed on the outer thirds .
If stiffness in the center third can be accomplished by compressing the wood, one could "forge" an arrow of varying density by compressing a blank shaped like a long diamond.
in other words, an arrow of same diameter from end to end having lighter ends but stiffer midsection
It's interesting that Harry Drake never worried about spine. I think stiffness is only really an issue if the arrow is flexing, and a decent shoot through bow correctly set up, with a mechanical (or flipper) release, shouldn't have much arrow flex.
It reminds me of some bloke on an archery forum telling me that spine mattered in crossbow bolts, I said it didn't, he tried to call me out, so I made a bolt with a paper tube shaft and shot it from a 50# bow pistol! It was fine!
If you can barrel and arrow to 5mm at each end, is it better if it is 5mm all the way along. I'm beginning to think that finding the optimum weight arrow for the bow (at minimum diameter) is the critical factor (that, and small wafer thin fletchings).
Obviously on an ELB (or warbow) barrelling to get the stiffness in the right place is vital as the arrow has to flex.
Del
(All just my opinion of course)
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I agree Del, when the arrow needs to flex spine is critical, on a center shot bow there really is no need to flex. One thing that has always puzzled me is how critical the spine is on an atlatl dart. If they are too stiff, they just dive bomb.
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I agree Del, when the arrow needs to flex spine is critical, on a center shot bow there really is no need to flex. One thing that has always puzzled me is how critical the spine is on an atlatl dart. If they are too stiff, they just dive bomb.
An atlatl dart that is too stiff needs to be thrown very hard to get going straight. The tail end of the dart needs to deflect easily because the nock is rotating in a substantial arc due to the length of the throwing stick, and if the dart is too stiff, it will rotate the entire dart around the fore and aft center of gravity. BTW, stiff darts tend to launch nose high, while it is a soft spined dart (or a dart that is thrown too hard), that dives towards the ground.
It's interesting that Harry Drake never worried about spine.
could this mean that Harry never worried about measuring spine or tried to make adjustments to his arrows based on spine measurements? He must have had other more important criteria when making arrows ie. weight, length or diameter. I am guessing he still must have appreciated as much stiffness as the materiel would give, once the other criteria was met?
If you can barrel and arrow to 5mm at each end, is it better if it is 5mm all the way along.
interesting question about whether a tapered/barreled arrow or a straight shaft makes much difference aerodynamically. the maths of aerodynamics seem to be concerned with maximum diameter, at least with rockets and missles anyways as they seem to do well as cylinders
fuller diameters at the ends of arrows should make maintaining points and nocks easier tho, if not creating excess weight, but smaller max diameters in the mid section seem to be desirable for distance.
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Just an opinion from a guy that’s still looking for a flight record. I have broadhead records. It could be that once the diameter being wider in the center reduces the drag on the back half of the the arrow. Increasing distance. I would draw a pic if I could draw. The increased drag is only in the center of the arrow where spine is needed. Just a thought.
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Just an opinion from a guy that’s still looking for a flight record. I have broadhead records. It could be that once the diameter being wider in the center reduces the drag on the back half of the the arrow. Increasing distance. I would draw a pic if I could draw. The increased drag is only in the center of the arrow where spine is needed. Just a thought.
You are pretty well correct. The barrel shap creats what called a Coanda effect, named after the guy who would rather have discovered it any other way than how he did. Its a boundary layer that sticks to a curved surface as it flows over it. You have no doubt noticed it when washing the back side of a spoon in the sink. When the angle of attack gets too high you get boundary layer separation and that causes a stall. When an arrow wobbles it can cause the fail of the arrow to stall if the paradox gets too strong in increase drag. So you do want that curve in the shaft and as little paradox as you can get away with.
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Most broadhead arrows are going to be pretty close to the proper spine. A 200-grain arrow can lose a big portion of its speed in the first 10 ft of the shot if the spine is not near perfect. The arrow has to come out of the bow straight and remain straight. Everyone talks about faster bows when they think of flight shooting. Any well-made bow can break any existing flight record with the right arrow. None of us were tuning our arrows. We just make up some arrows and hope for the best. English longbows are not particularly fast with light arrows, yet Josef shot 530 yards while practicing with an 88# bow. That gives us some idea what the potential is. If you look at the modern American longbow and all of the primitive records, none of them are anywhere near what they should be if a properly tuned arrow was paired with a fast bow. What they have in common is less-than-optimal wood arrows. In defense of my own history in the broadhead division the rule changes on fletching and arrow weight changes erased all the history of broadhead.
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A 200-grain arrow can lose a big portion of its speed in the first 10 ft of the shot if the spine is not near perfect. The arrow has to come out of the bow straight and remain straight.
so if a lighter arrow is harder to launch without wobbles, then it becomes more important than ever to have an arrow design that tends to dampen its wobbles rather than flexing back and forth too long. could reducing mass in the ends of the arrows help reduce the flexing?
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Almost every record I can think of recently that was broken using a wood arrow was broken with an arrow thought to be far too weak. Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.
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Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.
But it comes out sideways because it is too weak? maybe I am missing something or are you saying it is all in the release of the archer?
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Of course, the release and the knocking point are very important. But I am also saying that the spine is critical, and if an arrow is too stiff or too weak, it won't come out of the bow straight. A correct spine is important. Ivar Malde is probably the best authority on arrows and set up right now, he is at least the most knowledgeable one willing the share information. This past year, there were some big achievements with wood arrows, and I think it won't be long before that filters down into the primitive wood classes.
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Almost every record I can think of recently that was broken using a wood arrow was broken with an arrow thought to be far too weak. Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.
Not exactly the same thing, but the arrows used by Olympic archers are tapered both ends and they prefer the spine a bit on the weak side. This is considered to be more forgiving of a bad release by the archer. Perhaps your 'weak' flight arrows are doing a similar thing and are less affected by variation in the release and are giving better performance overall?
Mark
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arrows used by Olympic archers are tapered both ends and they prefer the spine a bit on the weak side. This is considered to be more forgiving of a bad release by the archer. Perhaps your 'weak' flight arrows are doing a similar thing and are less affected by variation in the release and are giving better performance overall?
Mark
or just tapered?
https://eastonarchery.com/2018/12/arrow-shaft-design-and-performance/
or forged-tapered with a straight blank to keep minimal FOC?
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or just tapered?
https://eastonarchery.com/2018/12/arrow-shaft-design-and-performance/
or forged-tapered with a straight blank to keep minimal FOC?
The X10 is the arrow in question, which is a barrelled design.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
I was reading at Eastons site after seeing your post and thought to pass along an interesting article that also explained the benifits of a tapered shaft in addition to a barrelled one.
My reference to forged was more directed to Dels experiments with compressed wood and the forgewood process mentioned up thread. I believe some of the original forgewood shafts were straight diameter shafts that were compressed from a tapered blank, producing a finished shaft with FOC.
For flight use, one may not want FOC, but may want a tapered tail end instead. Perhaps a setup like Dels for forging wood could turn out something like that.