Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on September 18, 2025, 11:28:50 am
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What features of a bow have you guys learned that speeds your bows up?
Low set is a big one for me but honestly, I think proper tiller shape is more important. What things have yall all noticed?
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I've never thought about speed when I build bows. Either they are shooters or they are good shooters.
That said, I think narrow, light tips, reflexed limbs with reflexed tips, well balanced limbs and a good heat treated belly while reflexing.
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As little mass as possible in the outer limbs. Pyramid design makes that easier.
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That said, I think narrow, light tips, reflexed limbs with reflexed tips, well balanced limbs and a good heat treated belly while reflexing.
+1
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What features of a bow have you guys learned that speeds your bows up?
Assuming you mean "speeds your arrow up".....
Does it matter if the arrow is a high gpp arrow or a lower gpp?
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Willie, when discussing arrows I always refer to hunting weight arrows, 10 +/- gpp. I shoot the same arrows no matter if I'm hunting or shooting 3D or targets.
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Chosing that magical osage that is as hard as a rock but cuts like butter with no splintering with a drawknife, is much heavier than run of the mill osage and has a perfect early wood to late wood ratio. Add some reflex and heat treatment and you have something special.
The top half of the sample on the left made some extra special bows for me.
The wide ring piece in the middle made very sluggish bows.
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What features of a bow have you guys learned that speeds your bows up?
Assuming you mean "speeds your arrow up".....
Does it matter if the arrow is a high gpp arrow or a lower gpp?
Nah, I mean the bow. If you wanna speed an arrow up, you drop its weight. Speeding a bow up ( semanticly speaking ) means it will shoot any arrow weight faster than another bow.
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Nah, I mean the bow. If you wanna speed an arrow up, you drop its weight. Speeding a bow up ( semanticly speaking ) means it will shoot any arrow weight faster than another bow.
granted, lighter arrows will generally be faster with most bows (all other things being equal).
if you are asking about light arrows tho, isn't it true that there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to reducing arrow mass? and that some bow designs work better with lighter arrows?
but maybe you are asking about bows for more typical 10 gpp or thereabouts weight arrows?
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if you are asking about light arrows tho, isn't it true that there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to reducing arrow mass? and that some bow designs work better with lighter arrows?
Bows with a low virtual mass may shoot very light arrows faster than the faster bow with heavier arrows. Thats why shorter bows are used in flight shooting but not the broadhead event. Most of the time, the faster bow will always be faster, but not all the time.
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virtual mass......
reading these three pages......
http://www.tap46home.plus.com/mechanics/vmass.htm
https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/hickman/archery-the-technical-side/klopsteg/physics-of-bows-and-arrows/virtual-mass-of-a-bow.html
https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/hickman/archery-the-technical-side/klopsteg/physics-of-bows-and-arrows/virtual-mass-of-a-bow2.html
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Chosing that magical osage that is as hard as a rock but cuts like butter with no splintering with a drawknife, is much heavier than run of the mill osage and has a perfect early wood to late wood ratio. Add some reflex and heat treatment and you have something special.
The top half of the sample on the left made some extra special bows for me.
The wide ring piece in the middle made very sluggish bows.
Wood quality makes such a huge difference its crazy. I firmly believe the denser the wood the better it can be. I also have noticed with osage the higher the latex content and the greener its color is, the better the wood is.
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I've never thought about speed when I build bows. Either they are shooters or they are good shooters.
That said, I think narrow, light tips, reflexed limbs with reflexed tips, well balanced limbs and a good heat treated belly while reflexing.
Heat treating makes a big difference, waking up a bow to a level you cant get otherwise. Its compression resistance is petty well maxed out with a good heat treat. I think most folks who heat treat dont treat them well enough, stopping well short of a complete heat treat.
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Either or, its a question relative to any arrow. What speeds up a light arrow may slow down a heavy arrow.
What features of a bow have you guys learned that speeds your bows up?
Assuming you mean "speeds your arrow up".....
Does it matter if the arrow is a high gpp arrow or a lower gpp?
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Hey Sleek, what’s a good heat compared to a stop short compete heat treat?
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Hey Sleek, what’s a good heat compared to a stop short compete heat treat?
Heat until heat wont increase the draw weight any further. I will do a heat treat, retiller to drop the weight back to target, then heat it again, retiller, and repeat that 4 times. On the 4th heat treat, the draw weight will no longer go up, the wood is completely treated. Anything less than that is an incomplete heat treat.
That doesnt mean an incomplete heat treat is bad, it just means its not all you can get out of it. Regular hunting and target bows I dont do that, I may not heat it at all except for minor tiller corrections. But for my high performance flight bows, that makes the difference in a big way.
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The most efficient bow I’ve ever built was a 64” reflex deflex design. It was a computer design by Allen case . The design called for 100% efficiency but I only got 95% according to sleeks math. The lack of efficiency loss was on my part of the build. One day I’m going to hit the design and I will brake some records. I still have not totally tested the 64” bow. But it did shoot a broadhead arrow 232 yds. 7 yds off my record. It might have what it takes it just needs further testing. That being said a Pyrimid with reflex the last 8-9” of the limb is hard to bear!!!!
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You have all of my attention with your bows you are building Arvin! I need to swing by again for a week to do some hard core bow building with you. I believe we can certainly get some record distance behind an arrow if we can do a good collaboration! I really enjoyed hanging out last time, it just wasnt long enough.
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Are you talking efficiency or are you talking stored energy per draw force. 95% is good 100% is achievable. You really can't talk efficiency without a chrono and a shooting machine. No bow ever built has even approached 100% efficiency.
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Over 90 percent of the bows I build are ELBs. I like that this design appears very simple at first glance, but the devil's in the detail. I would argue that it is relatively easy for an inexperienced beginner to implement the basic design of the longbow, but it requires more experience compared to a flatbow to build an ELB with high to maximum efficiency. The reasons are as follows: due to its design, the flatbow is stiff at the grip, which automatically reduces limb vibration. In addition, the average flatbow is shorter than a longbow, which means that it is not quite as important to distribute the limb mass correctly (i.e., close to the grip).
However, this does not mean that a longbow cannot be built to be just as efficient as an excellent flatbow. Here are a few observations I have made: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary. A grip that bends too much (one of the most common mistakes) reduces efficiency, as both the limb vibration and the moving limb mass are unnecessarily increased. On the other hand, a grip that is too stiff puts too much strain on the middle and outer limbs.
A shorter longbow must bend relatively more at the handle at a given draw weight in order not to overstrain the mid and outer limbs. The more draw weight a longbow has at a given length and limb width, the more the grip must bend. A longbow made of very pressure resistant woods such as yew, osage, and laburnum can be tillered more elliptically at a given length and draw weight than a longbow made of white woods. With white woods, I make sure that the set is distributed over the entire length, while with woods like osage, yew and laburnum, it's okay if the set is only present in the mid and outer limbs, which makes the bow more efficient. The maximum acceptable amount of set is about 1 1/4 inches.
Another common mistake I often see on longbows is that the limb tips are too stiff. This unnecessarily increases the moving limb mass and, in my opinion, puts too much strain on the mid limbs. Unlike flatbows, the limbs of longbows are allowed to bend all the way to the tips. Arrow speeds of over 170 fps at 10 gpp are entirely achievable when these tiller rules are taken into account.
I have also been building laminated English longbows for about a year or so. I noticed that the choice of glue used plays a significant role and has a major impact on arrow speed. In my experience, a bow glued with Titebond III retains less reflex and shoots about 10 fps slower than a bow glued with epoxy resin or good fish glue. I suspect that Titebond III yields more under shear forces (i.e., is more chewing gum-like) than epoxy resin or fish glue. A well-built English longbow made of two or three lams glued with the latter two glues can achieve arrow speeds of over 180 fps.
@sleek: I would like to ask you a little more about your approach to heat treating flight bows. At what draw lengths do you perform the heat treatments during tillering? Are there woods that you heat treat stronger than other woods? How dark is the wood your heat treatments?
Thank You and cheers,
lonbow
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: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary.
good observations,
are the mary rose bows a good example? I would think they were tillered for maximum cast which would also be "fastest"
could you post pics of different examples at full draw?
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Over 90 percent of the bows I build are ELBs. I like that this design appears very simple at first glance, but the devil's in the detail. I would argue that it is relatively easy for an inexperienced beginner to implement the basic design of the longbow, but it requires more experience compared to a flatbow to build an ELB with high to maximum efficiency. The reasons are as follows: due to its design, the flatbow is stiff at the grip, which automatically reduces limb vibration. In addition, the average flatbow is shorter than a longbow, which means that it is not quite as important to distribute the limb mass correctly (i.e., close to the grip).
However, this does not mean that a longbow cannot be built to be just as efficient as an excellent flatbow. Here are a few observations I have made: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary. A grip that bends too much (one of the most common mistakes) reduces efficiency, as both the limb vibration and the moving limb mass are unnecessarily increased. On the other hand, a grip that is too stiff puts too much strain on the middle and outer limbs.
A shorter longbow must bend relatively more at the handle at a given draw weight in order not to overstrain the mid and outer limbs. The more draw weight a longbow has at a given length and limb width, the more the grip must bend. A longbow made of very pressure resistant woods such as yew, osage, and laburnum can be tillered more elliptically at a given length and draw weight than a longbow made of white woods. With white woods, I make sure that the set is distributed over the entire length, while with woods like osage, yew and laburnum, it's okay if the set is only present in the mid and outer limbs, which makes the bow more efficient. The maximum acceptable amount of set is about 1 1/4 inches.
Another common mistake I often see on longbows is that the limb tips are too stiff. This unnecessarily increases the moving limb mass and, in my opinion, puts too much strain on the mid limbs. Unlike flatbows, the limbs of longbows are allowed to bend all the way to the tips. Arrow speeds of over 170 fps at 10 gpp are entirely achievable when these tiller rules are taken into account.
I have also been building laminated English longbows for about a year or so. I noticed that the choice of glue used plays a significant role and has a major impact on arrow speed. In my experience, a bow glued with Titebond III retains less reflex and shoots about 10 fps slower than a bow glued with epoxy resin or good fish glue. I suspect that Titebond III yields more under shear forces (i.e., is more chewing gum-like) than epoxy resin or fish glue. A well-built English longbow made of two or three lams glued with the latter two glues can achieve arrow speeds of over 180 fps.
@sleek: I would like to ask you a little more about your approach to heat treating flight bows. At what draw lengths do you perform the heat treatments during tillering? Are there woods that you heat treat stronger than other woods? How dark is the wood your heat treatments?
Thank You and cheers,
lonbow
I first focus on getting my tiller correct, and I take reading on the scale as I near my final draw weight, not draw length. I draw 26, and like to have my tiller perfect before I hit 15 inches. I like to have my projected draw weight to hit 26 by time im at 20 inches. Then I heat treat it and start the process over again. If Im gonna do a 50 pound bow, I dont hit 50 until the first and last time I hit my final draw length. This process keeps wood strain down. Many folks dont realize, just bracing your bow when its too heavy causes set and damage. There's no reason to brace and pull to 50 if you are gonna hit 50@15 and you pull 28. Ypu should hit your final draw weight and draw length at the same time.
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I have found 9grains per inch of draw gives me better distance on 50 pound bows in broadhead head flight. Not because that the rules are 450grain. My best shots have been with 462 grains. It might be that that’s the sweet spot of arrow weight vs bow weight on a fifty pound bow or better distance with that particular bow design. I don’t have a shooting machine but after 150 Pyramid design bows with 1-1/2 reflex in the last 8-10” of the limb. This design has broke many flight records in fifty pound class and unlimited class. The English have gotten the English longbow rules oked to shoot synthetic strings vs all natural materials. I would like to see all primitive classes ok the synthetic strings in flight shooting. Jim Davis convinced years ago that the pyramid bows are the most efficient design. I built one English longbow from Osage years ago. I built it to the flight shooting rule design. It was full of shock and a dog. It was probably the builders fault!!!🤠🤠🤠
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Ok, that multiple heat treatment idea is stuck in my head like a piece of kale in my teeth in a critical job interview.
I have a theory working in my head that the belly needs to not just reach a critical temperature but also STAY AT THAT TEMP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. Doing that all in one heat session would likely cause the heat to migrate too deeply and damage the tension strength of the back. But by doing it over several sessions one can get up to the critical temp again and again until it adds up to the point where the changes are complete. Or expressed as a formula, a matter of Time X Temperature.
Or am I overthinking this?
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Ok, that multiple heat treatment idea is stuck in my head like a piece of kale in my teeth in a critical job interview.
I have a theory working in my head that the belly needs to not just reach a critical temperature but also STAY AT THAT TEMP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. Doing that all in one heat session would likely cause the heat to migrate too deeply and damage the tension strength of the back. But by doing it over several sessions one can get up to the critical temp again and again until it adds up to the point where the changes are complete. Or expressed as a formula, a matter of Time X Temperature.
Or am I overthinking this?
No, I think you are about right. Its not just getting it hot, it does require a specific time for a heat soak. Like treating metal with heat. I dont know all the science, but I know this works. My bows consistently beat the computer models Alan Case pits together for whats supposed to be possible. And Alan, for those who dont know, is probably one of the smartest guys out there who builds bows. He just broke Harry Drakes record for longest arrow shot, well over a mile. Alan and I are on and off discussing heat treat recently and are considering different tests to learn more.
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Heat treating time...
Presumably there must be some sort of rule of thumb for time/depth of penetration?
For steaming it's say 1 hour per inch of thickness... How much depth of penetration do we want for a heat treatment? 1/4" ?
When I heat treat with a hot air gun, I move the gun along every 4 minutes, but I use side cheeks to keep the heat along a fair section of the belly, so it probably is held up to temperature for at least 8 if not 12 minutes, I'd guess it goes to 1/8"- 3/16"
Dunno if that is any use as a comment ::) ;D
Del
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Del, as far as a rule of thumb goes, I heat the entire limb by keeping the heat gun moving from one end to another. I hold it close to the wood. I continue this until the opposite side is too hot to hold your finger on for more than about a second. This usually gives my just a slight golden brown color. One each end where I make the turn around it tends to get hotter, so toward the end of the process, the strokes get a bit shorter as I move it inward. I never really timed it but I would guess about 30 min or less per limb.
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I’m putting more of my focus into fast bows with a goal of attending the flight shoot next year. I think recurves add more reflex easily than maintaining reflex along a whole limb. I also think they can be made light enough that they’re efficient. Definitely a solid heat treat and low set helps. Wood quality makes a big difference. I struggle with humidity at home.
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I’m putting more of my focus into fast bows with a goal of attending the flight shoot next year. I think recurves add more reflex easily than maintaining reflex along a whole limb. I also think they can be made light enough that they’re efficient. Definitely a solid heat treat and low set helps. Wood quality makes a big difference. I struggle with humidity at home.
It would absolutely be great to see you out there! Ill help you as much as I can.
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I appreciate that. I need to watch your video on flight arrows. Arvin and Alan have been great when I ask questions. I’d rather build 100 flight bows and 1 arrow so those have been tricky.
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It will be a good time. My flight arrow video is more of a video that shows how to make any arrow and various methods involved. It leaves out the dimensions because those very between draw length and poundage. However I've no doubt there are flight arrow dimensions online you can find and reference. Ill help all I can, but arrows are my week point haha.
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One thing I am learning: You can build a bow that stores gobs of energy and has a nice FAT FD curve. But making that bow shoot that energy into the arrow can be even more difficult. A high energy storage bow does not equal an efficient bow. AKA static efficiency isnt equal to dynamic. The trick is finding the balance.
What makes a high energy storage bow? To start with, a proper tiller. That will change depending on the bow design. Then you want the correct amount of bending surface area. Think "PSI" pounds per square inch. Each inch of wood can have X amount of stress before failing. So make sure you have enough inches to absorb all that stress evenly across the working limb and not begin to fail. Though experimentation I have come up with a formula that expresses that based on the woods density. Im actively building a program to help with that and will post it on the new PA page when its done. The next thing is you want the energy storage to start off high and slowly taper off to low amount as you draw. You want the bow to stack in reverse, aka high early draw weight gains per inch of draw that drop every inch you pull it. The only way I know to make that happen is the bow has to get effectively longer as you pull it. That requires a lot of string contact at brace that lifts off at full draw. Feel free to add more if you think of them.
What makes a dynamically efficient bow? One that has no set. Thankfully that happens when you have the correct tiller shape and you are PSI balanced per the woods density as mentioned above. So thats two birds one stone there. Then you need a short bending section. The shorter the area you have flexing the higher the frequency the limb will vibrate at when released. That also frees up the rest of the limb to act as a lever. Now the trick here is to put the correct number of square inches into as short a bending section as possible, which can make a bow comically wide. Dont laugh too hard though, those wide short limbs will make a bow VERY powerful. The issue you run into next is the wider and shorter you make them the thinner they get to allow the needed bend radius to make your full draw. The thinner limbs like to loose some stability so you have to find a good balance. Lastly there is the question of whether you are shooting heavy or light arrows. The lighter the arrow is, the less leverage the bow needs on it to accelerate it. So lighter arrows can be shot from a short bow. Heavier arrows need longer levers to get all that mass up to speed, so longer bows are favored by heavier arrows. You will see evidence of that already between the old English long bows and the shorter bows of the asiatics. Thats a crash course in what what knowledge I have gained via years of making bows chasing speed.
What are your fastest bows and what makes you think made them fast?
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My fastest bows are 67” ntn 2+ inches wide at fades , 8-9 inch non bend handle section, 1-3/4 - 2” reflex in the last 9-10”. That’s broke lots of broadhead flight records and some flight records. That being said I think Sleek is right about longer limbs for longer heavier arrows and short light arrows for shorter bows. I hope to prove this wrong with a 64” reflex deflex design Alan designed for me on the computer. My best speed on the 50# 67”. bow is about 180-185 fps with 9 gr per pound arrow.