Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Selfbowman on November 16, 2025, 06:51:53 pm
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I got this black locust stave from Jim Hammer. I felt that it was real dense so I did a couple of one inch cubes and weighed them then did a float test. Here are the results. They both weighed .54oz. Pics of float test.
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Barely buoyant.
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Pic of locust.
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Not trying to be a smart *** but is that good our bad ? :)
Pappy
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Pappy the black locust is as dense as Osage. In the bowyers bible Osage specific gravity is .82 so if I’m right here 18% of the cube should be above the water line. On black locust the specific gravity is .69 So 31% of the cube should be above the water line. It seams that both wood types are very dense. This could be some very good black locust because of its density. I might be all off here not knowing what I’m talking about. So if I am please correct me. 🤠🤠
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Ok just thinking I decided to check the moisture in both woods. The Osage was6% and the locust was 10%. So the black locust moisture may be affecting the float test. Need a smart guy!
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Arvin, you’re talking above my pay grade, but as always I’m following along and I’m sure like always will learn from your experience.
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Ok I made a white pine 1” cube it weighed.36 so lighter than the black locust. Specific gravity was .45 in the Bible. Here is the float test . Could not get it to float right but more above the water line. Not as dense .
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Arvin, is that tap water or pure distilled water? That does make a difference in float height.
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Ok I made a white pine 1” cube it weighed.36 so lighter than the black locust. Specific gravity was .45 in the Bible. Here is the float test . Could not get it to float right but more above the water line. Not as dense .
Assuming the dimensions are very close to 1 cubic inch, thays pinr block is .62 sg. Im starting to question the accuracy of that list in the TBB.
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You need to oven dry the samples for hours down to 0% water content if you want to get an accurate reading, that´s why Tim Baker suggested a small narrow sample - like a 1/2 inch diameter dowel with square sides. I think Tim mentioned 4 hours oven time for a small sample.
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You can also dry samples in the microwave but I’ve had some pieces pop and fizzle quite a bit. (lol)
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Tap water sleek. Ryan your funny. I think that the weight being the same tells us a lot. I’m going to build it to the spec of the Osage bow that has two records and see what I get.
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Pappy, there is some pretty good evidence that the denser the wood is for its species, the better it works for bows. Say, if the average density of a species of tree is .600, then a sample coming in at .700 is likely to make a better bow and one coming in at .500 will need a collar and a leash because it's gonna be a dog.
I know in my experience I have made a couple green ash bows that shot so badly you didn't need a chronograph to measure the speed of the arrow, you needed a CALENDAR! Both staves came from a tree that was super lightweight.
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If the sample is an accurate 1" cube and the moisture is at 10% you have a piece that is around .8 sg. Same as osage. Pretty common for black locust. If it does not chrysal black locust can make super fast bows. From the woods, I tested black locust had the lowest hysteresis. Funny thing is that woods low in hysteresis also tend to chrysal. Good luck.
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Steve would 69” be long enough? It’s 2-3/8 wide at fades.
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Black locust can be your best friend, or your worst enemy when it comes to building a bow with it. Early on, and a lot my tillering fault the first black locust log I cut staves from either broke on the back , or ended up with belly frets. 2nd log I found laying along side the road with no center in it. It was dense as h111, and to heavy to carry to my truck, so I split it on the spot. I got 4 nice bows from that log. No frets, and no broken backs. Thought I had it all figured out. 3rd log was a bust too. Just like any other wood. Some logs are good for bow making ,and others not so much with in the same species.
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Steve would 69” be long enough? It’s 2-3/8 wide at fades.
I would say yes, In the past I have always made them too narrow and a bit shorter. Very fast wood. I think your dimensions should be ideal.
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I have made a few for BL, but as Steve said prone to fretting, some did for good reason and some seemed to be for no reason at all. May have been just the wood. The ones that didn't made very good shooters. :)
Pappy
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If I was to do another one I would probably try trapping the back and see if that helps. Pappy
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Makes sense pappy on the trapping.
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I cut my bow building teeth on locust. I started buying locust fence posts for $5 each. Made lots of bows but they all fretted. My only success was with an Eastern Woodland style bendy handle bow I made for a bow trade.
The locust that grows around on our property has something that causes the early growth rings to deteriorate and separate so all of the bows I tried with them have failed. I think there are a lot of variables when it comes to locust, at least around here.
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When I lived in Maine, BL was the best wood I could easily get.
My first use of it was from a small tree that only allowed a 1-1/2" wide stave. I made a pyramid design bow that was nearly perfect tiller at #35. It had about 3 inches of reflex. I shot it a lot and it performed well. Then I discovered that the belly had a parade of frets from one tip to the other--the whole belly.
With nothing much to lose, I just kept on shooting it. Eventually, I over drew it and it broke.
For the next few years, I made all my bows with backs narrower than the belly. But my subsequent research found studies that indicated that wood only stretches about 1% before breaking. SO, narrowing the back does not make the tension wood stretch more to accommodate the compression of the belly.
We all know that if we bend any piece of wood far enough, it WILL break. The balance for bowyers is in making the limbs thin enough to not yield (take set) at the amount of bend (draw length) we want. At the right thickness for the bend, the weight will be determined by the limb width.
My best locust bows were pyramid design, a little under 1/2" thick, 2-1/2" wide at the fades, 68" NTN and about #40 at 28".
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When I lived in Maine, BL was the best wood I could easily get.
My first use of it was from a small tree that only allowed a 1-1/2" wide stave. I made a pyramid design bow that was nearly perfect tiller at #35. It had about 3 inches of reflex. I shot it a lot and it performed well. Then I discovered that the belly had a parade of frets from one tip to the other--the whole belly.
With nothing much to lose, I just kept on shooting it. Eventually, I over drew it and it broke.
For the next few years, I made all my bows with backs narrower than the belly. But my subsequent research found studies that indicated that wood only stretches about 1% before breaking. SO, narrowing the back does not make the tension wood stretch more to accommodate the compression of the belly.
We all know that if we bend any piece of wood far enough, it WILL break. The balance for bowyers is in making the limbs thin enough to not yield (take set) at the amount of bend (draw length) we want. At the right thickness for the bend, the weight will be determined by the limb width.
My best locust bows were pyramid design, a little under 1/2" thick, 2-1/2" wide at the fades, 68" NTN and about #40 at 28".
How long do you make your handles and are your tips stiff? Im trying to calculate how long the actual bending section of the limbs are for your bow.
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Four inch handle, two inch fades. Six inches at the tips not bending much.
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If you make a locust bow from a sapling you don't need to trap the back, and when I did trap the back more than I should have the back broke when I used logs. It can be a bitch to get one just right, but when you do it makes a good bow, and will teach you a thing , or two about tillering.
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Ok guys I might have to put this one on hold. I need to finish the snake bow I might have the hole bow and the snake bow going down the road.
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Ok I put the snake on hold for now. Back on the BL bow. The bow will be 2-3/8 at fades and parallel for 9” then pyramid to the tips. 8” stiff handle section 67” ntn. I’ve got it about 1/2” thick in the limbs . It’s a lot of bow right now. The interesting thing is when roughing out the bow the bandsaw made a high pitch and slow to cut when cutting the stave down the back roughing out the back widths! When turning the stave on its side and thinning the limbs it cut like butter. It seems to like heat and conform to the caul good.here is where it’s at.
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Jim will it go 50# at these dimensions? This bow will have three growth rings in the limbs. I don’t like cutting through the lunar rings but if I do so on this stave I can get the back and belly real flat. What do you guys think??
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Im excited to see this bow progress. Standing by for updates.
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Diddo. Watching this too.
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The bow is still about 90# so I’m going to try something. I’m going to trap the belly . I dividedthe limb width by 3 leaving the center flat and will scribe the edges to a 1/4” from the back. Why because I will completely lose a growth ring on one end . want to keep three growth rings if possible. Anyone done this with BL
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The bow weighs 46.2 oz right now. Probably take 4-5oz out of handle section. I think this will finish at about 28oz. That leaves a lot to remove.
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I would absolutely NOT trap the belly. That is a recipe for failure with black locust. Id build it with a rectangular cross section or a slight crown.
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+1!
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+2
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+3
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Ok ok bad idea! 🤠🤠🤠
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We had a guy here in Ca that used to make a lot of black locust bows. He was a top notch bow maker. Big Jim. I could never get over how thin the bows were when he finished. I have a feeling yours will be real thin like that. Good sign.
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Ok ok bad idea! 🤠🤠🤠
Yeah, take it easy cowboy, dont you know bigger is better? Are you even from Texas?
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Tip overlays on.
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Looking forward to what you can get out of this piece. Never tried to go that wide with bl. I’d think you’ll be under 3/8 in thickness on the working limbs when it’s all done. Iirc that’s about the thickness I’d end up with 2” limbs at 50ish pounds and good locust. And looks like you got some quality stuff there.
Mike
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Roughed the handle out so I could get an idea on mass weight. Getting close.
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Watching closely. I’ve only tried black locust once and turned out to be a bad log that had a lot of punky wood inside that I could not get past. Hoping to learn some more from your experience.
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Check my earlier comments on thickness: Right thinness to avoid frets and set, width to provide strength.
My prediction is that 2-3/8" width will not produce #50 at 28" without set/frets/fracture. Hope I'm wrong.
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Ok update. The bow has taken on cracks long ways . I sealed the back with true oil because it’s finished . I checked the moisture it was at 10% . What is ideal moisture content for BL? It’s 45@ 23” right now. No sign of set or frets yet. Should I let it set for a couple weeks and keep weighing it?
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The bow weighs 32.5 oz now. .45 in in thickness at mid limb.
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Brace pic.
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Those cracks are likely from the stave getting wet in the rain then drying out again. Id ignore them and press on. Have you heat treated the bow yet? Id fill the cracks with epoxy or superglue, but not until the heat treatment is finished, if you are going to.
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Maybe consider using it as a regular flight bow with 25" draw and 23" arrows. With no sign of set it will likely be a screamer
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What is your draw weight at 15" draw?
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14.6@10”,20,2@12”, 26@14” , 28.2@15”. , 36@18”, 41@20”. , 46.6@22”, 49@23” it has high early draw weight.
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Excellent, you have a flite bow there!
BL checked the lowest in hysterisis of all woods as long as it didn't chrysal, it is probably the fastest wood I know of. You could use it in regular flight on friday and then tiller it down to 50 at 28 for broadhead on sunday.
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Ya it’s shaping up! Looks like your classic brace there. Should be a very nice bow for flight with those numbers. I know you like the early draw weight. Very interested to see what it might do in flight. Keep us posted.
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After sealing the back weighing the bow then put it in the house for 24 hrs it lost 1 tenth of an oz. so time will tell what it’s going to do.
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Lost another tenth of oz 32.3
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32.2
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Just for fun, I weighed a 44# Osage bow of similar dimensions. 31.5 oz.
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Jim it’s at 8 present according to my moisture meter but it could be as high as 8.4 according to my meter chart. Do some math for me and compare the loss in weight and the difference between 10 and 8 percent moisture content.
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I have a nice big snow covered field you can test it in Arvin.
Probably find one this summer when it’s to hot in Texas and your looking for some place cooler.
Bjrogg
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I love ya Brian but no thanks. You shoot one I will come help ya find in May. 🤠🤠🤠
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We'd need to know the weight of the water in the bow at 8% to be able to do that math....
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.ok Jim 🤠🤠
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Day 4 32.1 still going down. Still at 8 percent.
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Day five 32.1 will check it for three more days to see if it changes.
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Day five 32.1 will check it for three more days to see if it changes.
Hey, saw someone posted a pic on F/B of a deer that they had shot with one of your bows. They used your legal name and I wasn't sure if it was you or not. Kinda feels good when someone is successful with your bow, don't it?
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Ya JW there is a story about that deer. The first time he was at almost full draw on it when the bow I made blew. He called me said I need another bow Arvin. What happened to the one you’ve been shooting. He told the story and I’m thinking and he wants another one. Ok??? I told him I had one that was probably in the top ten I had made. He drove 170 miles the next day to get the bow. Shot it about 4-5 times and we did some trading and went home with it. So I guess he liked the way the first one shot. The second time the Arvin bow got it done.🤠🤠🤠🤠it’s good to have guys that confident in your equipment.
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Ya JW there is a story about that deer. The first time he was at almost full draw on it when the bow I made blew. He called me said I need another bow Arvin. What happened to the one you’ve been shooting. He told the story and I’m thinking and he wants another one. Ok??? I told him I had one that was probably in the top ten I had made. He drove 170 miles the next day to get the bow. Shot it about 4-5 times and we did some trading and went home with it. So I guess he liked the way the first one shot. The second time the Arvin bow got it done.🤠🤠🤠🤠it’s good to have guys that confident in your equipment.
He'll have more than a few meals in his belly courtesy of that confidence!
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It’s dry 3days at32 oz I will finish it in the next few days. Tomorrow I’m busy.
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Got it to 50@ 25” put a couple coats of true oil on it . One inch of set . No frets with the magnifying glass so far . I will try to test an arrow thru the crono but I just don’t trust mine.
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That's really cool, hopefully it holds up alright! Looking forward to seeing how it pans out.
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JW. I saw that post as well. Very cool Arvin. Looking forward to what this thing can do
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It took one inch of set, how much returns after unstrung?
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Fingers Crossed Arvin - I have tried black locust only twice but haven't been able to get a shooter from it - proibably my tillering skills and patience are not good enough. It feels very stiff and powerful.
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Well I can’t get my crono to cooperate. Here is some finished pics.
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Well it might not brake a record but it will look good trying. This wood is beautiful wood finished out.
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Wow. What an absolute GEM of a bow! How much set returns after unstrung?
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Very little maybe 1/2”
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Looks great Arvin.
Do you have a full draw?
Bjrogg
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I agree Arvin. That’s quite a looker. Hope it per as good as it looks. Curious how the mass weight came out?
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That’s a beauty Arvin, love to see it up close but can tell it’s a looker. Pappy
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I had to 25 to check weight . It won’t go to 25 again till it competes. The brace shows its limbs are even. I think it was at 32oz. It’s on page five I think. If I would have took it to 28” draw I think it would end up about 28oz
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Thanks Arvin, I wasn’t sure if that was the finished weight or not.
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Another awesome bow Arvin
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I had to 25 to check weight . It won’t go to 25 again till it competes. The brace shows its limbs are even. I think it was at 32oz. It’s on page five I think. If I would have took it to 28” draw I think it would end up about 28oz
Make sure you get a good full draw picture for us. Those ones of you shootings them in flight are the best
Bjrogg