Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: joukahainen on June 10, 2008, 04:20:27 pm
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I was digging out the back of my bow3 And I discovered this tunnel-like hole in the back. It was filled with tightly packed sawdust, which I carefully scraped away. Underneath was this hole, about 10cm long (thats about 4 inches). It's starts on the second third counting from handle, so it's in an area where there will be a lot of bending...
How would you fix this kind of damage?
Is it possible to not fix it, and simply tiller VeryCarefully?
Of should I fill it with a mix of sawdust and glue? If so, then what kind of glue?
Or what? Im stumped. I was hoping to make this a strongbow, at about 70-80# but I don't know if it is possible to get it done safely. I would hate to have a bow of that strength splinter on me...
The wood is otherwise seemingly very good, it's very straight-grained runnin nonstop from tip to tip, and has a natural reflex of about 2 inches, spread evenly along the limbs. I would really hate to ditch it.
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Brother Joukahainen,
Are you working with White Ash by chance? It looks like WA and WA is known for tunnels like that. I have worked with a few that had these kinds of tunnels.
I'm not any kind of expert bowyer, but here is my advice.
#1. Do not leave it alone and try to just tiller around it. Too bad I know, because that would be the least stressful option. But, sorry, you will have to do something you cannot just leave it.
#2. Scraping it out, down to another ring or two would be the best option to deal with it, but if that would not permit you to get your 70-80lbs, then we will kick that one out, too.
#3. OK. So you have to have your 70-80 and you can work down any more growth rings. You have to fill it. It will not be a big deal and you can even sand it down when you're done and stain the bow and no one will ever even know it was patched. You have some choices here too, as to what you fill it with. Fortunately, this worm tunnel is more cosmetic than anything, and even if you left alone wouldl not take much away from your bow, or even affect the tiller all that much. The main reason you must fill it is to avoid splinters and an obvious weaker spot.
Have you ever worked with liquid wood, or wood putty (it may be called)? It comes in a little can, and ends up drying very hard. You can mix water with it and fill it layer by layer, packing it in as much as possible and then sand it over. Another, and possible cheaper filler, is like you said-very fine sawdust with glue. A way I have found and actually prefer, is NATURAL sinew. From a deer or whatever you can get it from. And you don't really need all that much. If you have not worked with sinew before, let me know and I can explain about it as well. I personally like sinew because it has strength value and get's very hard and will feel like actual wood after a few days. If you do fill it with sinew, you will still have to sand over it to smooth it out once it is all dry, and maybe put a small layer of sawdust and glue over it and then sand that so that you don't have to actually sand the sinew itself. Either way, your tunnel CAN be patched, my friend. Don't scrap your wood if it's good wood.
Let me know what you decide. Hope I have been able to help.
--Ol Matt
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If that is the back of the bow, What I would is cut a sliver and fit it in and use Urac185 glue and clamp it tight. Urac will bend and not crack in thin layers. If it is the belly, Scrape it out or do the same as for the back. My two cents worth.
Dick
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Papa Matt
Thank you for your help!
Yes. it is White ash. How can you recognice wood just by looking at it! Im impressed :o Last winter i tried to find ash that grows around my home, but since there were no leaves in the trees, i didnt recocnize not one. Now i have found several growing in my neigborhood and im stalking all those nice branches. I almost drove off the road yesterday when i suddenly noticed a big ash on the side of the road :D Strange how trees suddenly became important in my life :D
1. I dont mind doing a lot of work for my bows, the more the merrier, specially since i now have an okay bow i can shoot meanwhile :)
2. I already reduced the wood in the limbs too much before i noticed the damage. It was starting to rain and I wanted to get the rough work done before the rain would really start and wet the wood.... The bow is now too thin to work around the damage...So i guess i'll have to go for-
3. Liquid wood sounds interesting, maybe i could make a small fitting sliver as DBernier suggests, and use the liquid wood to glue it into place? That would propably be the most aesthetic option. Does this liquid wood bend along with the limb? I suppose they sell it at hardware-stores and like? Sinew sounds interesting too, I've been meaning to learn about that too, but thus far i havent gotten around it. To be honest, i dont really even know where i could get some sinew...And no, i could't get it by hunting, because i can barely hit a tree from 20 meters ;D
As what comes to my decision i will try to fix it, since you have convinced me it is doable.
DBernier
Thanks for the advice! I tried looking for urac185, but came up with nothing on my country's websites... I suppose i could ask away at the hardware-stores if they know what it is and sell it by some other name etc...
Where do you people generally buy your equipment? specialist bowyery-shops or some carpenter-shops or what? So far i have gotten my tools from basic hardwareshops and as heritage from my granpa, who was a carpenter btw. Too bad i never appreciated his trade when i was kid, i certainly could have learned some tricks...
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Three Rivers sells Urac as well as sinew and hide glue. Don't know where all they ship but they have most everything.
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If that's the belly just fill it with saw dust and superglue and you'll be allrigth, .....I don't know how, otherwise I'd post a couple of links of 2 bows that I just posted last month that had way more damage than that
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The grain on the belly looks off for a log stave. Is it a board? Jawge
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why not just add a 3/16 backing strip? Use a belt sander to flatten the back down below the tunnel, then add the backing. This will help you get the draw weight you want, protect the bow from coming apart, and deal with your wormhole all at once. Or if you have sinew, fill the wormhole like Matt said, then back the whole stave with sinew. That'll be mega strong, and make up for the "too much wood" you already took off.
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Looks like a board to me too George. No point in using a bad board when they are so cheap. Unless you just want a challenge. Justin
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Who knows what a Board runs where He is From....isn't Joukahainen from Finland??? I would guess that wood isn't as cheap to purchase there....I am with Manny Super Glue and Sawdust if it's on the Belly and Sawdust and Super Glue...with a Linen or Rawhide Backing if it's the Back of the Bow
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Need more info. Thickness of board? If that's a board then just sand the board its whole length assuming the thickness is there. Jawge
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If it were my bow, I would fill the tunnel with sinew strips and hide glue.
The sinew and glue will shrink as it dries and might not fill the tunnel perfectly. This might be a problem if you don't want a "primitive" look. Otherwise, you can fill the tunnel with a mix of ash sawdust and carpenter's glue and then sand smooth when dry (most carpenter's glues are flexible and sandable).
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Can you chase a ring on the board and get rid of that spot?
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Thanks for all yout replies :)
Nomadic Pirate; The hole is in the back of the bow, it's about 4mm deep (0,16 inch).
George; Yes, its a board, I haven't found a stave that i'd dare go harvest yet, so i just practice with these already dried boards. As what comes to thickness, I have already reduced the limb down to 2cm (0,8 inch), so i can't sand the hole out. Furthermore, it would rather seriously violate the grain if i did...
Justin and ElDestructo; The board cost me some 50-60 euros which is i think around 80-90 dollars, which is rather expensive in my opinion. There's still wood left for one other bow, but i would rather try to fix this one and leave the rest of the board for future. And yes i am from Finland 8)
Jackcrafty; I dont have sinew at hand, and don't know where to get it locally. I don't want to order stuff online as i prefer to get what i need from the neighborhood and not have to wait weeks and hassle with the payment and so on...
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Then I would use Sawdust and Super Glue...with a Linen or Rawhide Backing since it's the Back of the Bow
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Joukahainen, certain cuts of meat have sinew...like skirt or flank steaks (beef). Just remove it from the meat as you normally would and then clean and dry it. It's not as strong or long as leg sinew but it might work.
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Joukaheinen, it looks like since you don't have any sinew and don't want to go through the hassle of getting some, then you basically have 2 options left. Fill it with liquid wood or sawdust and glue, and/or cut a strip to fit the tunnel and glue it in as well. Like Radius said, if you want to put a backing on it, that would be easiest (but you may have to order it). It's up to you. But I don't see it as being a problem. It can be done, it's just however you want to do it. Let us know and good luck!
P.S..... These tunnels like I said in my first response, are somewhat common in White Ash. The poor Ashes (which are a wide variety-Green, Black, White, Blue, etc.) are being plagued with an Emerald Ash Borer insect that is brilliantly colored in emerald, hence the name. I don't know if this is a worm that is doing the tunnels, or if it's the Emerald AB, but I am going through the exact same thing right now with some WA that I cut out of my own woods from a seemingly healthy good sized log. personally, I am using anything with a worm tunnel on the back for firewood, because I have a lot of it (don't have to pay for it) and because the bows I am going to make from it are to be sold, without backing and the buyer wants the wood all natural with no defects. I love WA, but this is it's main drawback.
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jouk, you would violate the grain if you just sanded the hole but you could sand the whole length of the bow. Looks like that would bring you to 3/4 inch (1.92 cm) or so. Reduce the thickness all the way end to end equally. It would help if you had a belt sander. 3/4 inch would allow you to make a bend in the handle bow. The handle would be the widest part at 1.5 in. The other thing is make that part the belly. Someone else above suggested it. It won't matter with a board. One way or another get rid of it or the board will break. IMHO. I've never had any luck with imperfect boards. Jawge
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Thanks for all the replies!
I ended up using a mix of sawdust and glue. Seems to hold so far.
Here it is after some tillering, braced (a bit too low) and with a draw of 24 inches and 53#
The final draw will be 28 inches, which should be around 65# So that's close enough.
The wormhole is in the limb on the right. I left that one a bit stiffer just in case. It will be the lower limb.
I was thinking that i might use rawhide to back it, if need be, since that is readily available in my area.
But if it is not necessary, then i would rather not use it. Maybe if i still need to tiller a lot of weight away or if the bow suddenly gets a lot of string-follow
The bow is pyramid shaped, much in the same measures as my last one, about 75 inches long, 2+ inches at the widest part and about ,4 inches at the tips.
So, what do you think of the tiller?
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Hey....glad you followed the advice....looks like you made a sweet Bow from it now....and I would say that you nailed the Tiller....that right Limb may be a little Stiff....but barely noticeable.... I really like it...and I like Pyramid Bows almost as much as I like Paddle Bows!!!
If You have Rawhide available....I would go ahead and Back it with it....Just for safety Sakes....make sure that you sand it down good and uniform in thickness before you use it though....I like to back Bows with Rawhide...but I always thin it way down so as to not add too much extra weight to the Limbs....Thanks for sharing this with Us...
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Tiller looks good. I would get the last 5 inches by scraping the near handle wood. Are yo sure your draw is 28 in. with a selfbow? Jawge
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Well, im not sure really. I have made arrows that are 29 inches from the bottom of the arrow nock to the tip and i draw them pretty much up to the tip.
I havent really developed a consistent shooting style, and i have never had any training from anyone who shoots, or even watched one closely, so it may vary from time to time. But lately when i have been shooting in the field i usually draw about 1 inch less than full arrow-length, so that comes to about 28 inches.
Im relatively tall (6,3 ft) guy with monkeyarms so that draw seems comfortable in my inexperience. When i was shooting distance to test my second bow i noticed i could easily draw a lot more than the arrows allowed, but probably it's a good thing so i dont get too excited and bust my bow by overdrawing it. The 29'' arrows allow me to draw up to my cheek/chin, under my eye, and that seems to be the position where i may sometimes actually hit something ;D
And yes, thanks for confirming that. I was thinking that the rest should come off from the very near handle, and maybe some from the end of the tips, they seem a bit stiff...
By the way, what kind of distance do you people get with about 50 pounds bow? without the flight-arrow tunings and stuff? like with a regular "target" arrow?
I'd like to know so i could compare my creations with some of the more advanced ones :) My arrows are made of pine, about 8mm thick with 3 big feathers and weight around 30g (460-470 grains). My second ashbow (about 45#) shot them between 130-150 yards. Is that like even a mediocre performance or is it just bad?
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How much does rawhide backing add to draw-weight ? I suppose it depends on the thickness of it. But in general?
Does it change tiller a lot?
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How much does rawhide backing add to draw-weight ? I suppose it depends on the thickness of it. But in general?
Does it change tiller a lot?
Rawhide.... if sanded thin will not add any weight to the Bow to speak of...and will not change the Tiller either...as long as the Rawhide is sanded down to the same thickness....make sure that the piece of Rawhide is from the side or Belly...not the Shoulders or top of the Back....that is too thick and does not keep a steady thickness like the side and Belly seems to..
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Okay, that is good to know. Thanks!