Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 03:42:22 pm

Title: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 03:42:22 pm
Well, thought this would be easy.  But not sure what to do.  I know the limb on the right is little stiff but it has a nice curve.  The one on the left is developing a hinge, and is stiff about 10" from the tip.  But I did put about 1.5" of reflex in last 6" of tip.

Having a heck of a time getting it centered up.  I have been putting a level on the back at the handle.  I put the scale in the center of the string.  This is at 24".  I ultimately will be tillering at 29".

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/bigcountry_ky/OsageBuildalong/Tiller24inches.jpg?t=1214677453)
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 03:44:58 pm
By the way, what do you think of my antler tips I put on?

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/bigcountry_ky/OsageBuildalong/Copy1ofIMG_0002.jpg?t=1214677702)
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 04:02:44 pm
Here's another pic at 26" draw.

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/bigcountry_ky/OsageBuildalong/Tiller26inches.jpg?t=1214678738)
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 28, 2008, 04:06:07 pm
You need to remove more wood from the Right limb...from Mid-Limb to within 6-8 inches of the Tip....from the Handle to Mid-Limb looks good

On the Left Limb....you need to remove wood from the Handle to where that Limb is trying to Hinge on You....and then from about Mid-Limb to within 6-8 inches of that Tip too....what is your Poundage like?? Do you have room to spare yet?? If not...you need to worry about getting both Limbs bending right....and then you can Pike it to gain a little weight back

Good Luck and I hope that this helped.... Sent a PM also..
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: NOMADIC PIRATE on June 28, 2008, 04:32:34 pm
I would refrain from pulling that far with the tiller that way off, no ned to do undue damage to the wood.

Be carefull tillering with the hook exactly in the middle of the string, that's a recepy for weeker lower limb once you start sthooting it.
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 04:36:58 pm
Thanks guys, from the advise you guys gave, I figured I would get the right limb bending more to equal things.  Then post another picture, and to get a nicer bend on both limbs.  I don't have much room to work with.  The bow is at 57lbs now and wanted to keep it at 54-55ish.  But I can live with 50 pretty well. 

Thanks for the detailed PM Elde
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 04:46:42 pm
I would refrain from pulling that far with the tiller that way off, no ned to do undue damage to the wood.

Be carefull tillering with the hook exactly in the middle of the string, that's a recepy for weeker lower limb once you start sthooting it.

I shoot 3under. does that matter?  I figured 3 under you would want to put the hook right in the middle? 
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: NOMADIC PIRATE on June 28, 2008, 05:06:01 pm
I have no idea how you should tiller for 3 under :D :D :D
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: radius on June 28, 2008, 06:00:48 pm
You need to remove more wood from the Right limb...from Mid-Limb to within 6-8 inches of the Tip....from the Handle to Mid-Limb looks good

On the Left Limb....you need to remove wood from the Handle to where that Limb is trying to Hinge on You....and then from about Mid-Limb to within 6-8 inches of that Tip too....what is your Poundage like?? Do you have room to spare yet?? If not...you need to worry about getting both Limbs bending right....and then you can Pike it to gain a little weight back

Good Luck and I hope that this helped.... Sent a PM also..

Hey!  Are you sending people ovals now?  Post it, man!  Post it!  I wanna see it.
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 28, 2008, 06:14:09 pm

Hey!  Are you sending people ovals now?  Post it, man!  Post it!  I wanna see it.

Can't do it....don't want the Mod's....and certain Individuals getting bent out of Shape .....because I am interfering with ....and not Atta Boying everyone for everything they do....I would rather PM someone and see if I can help them that way.....than to listen to the Crap...I will not fuel their Fires any longer

And Bigcountry....everything that I can find on 3 Under....would have me believe that you would tiller it for a center draw....could be wrong though....maybe someone else uses this technique....I sure don't....I build North American Flatbows!!!!
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 06:50:31 pm
Well, guys, I have about screwed the pooch on this one. :-[

I took off stiff areas on the left limb and very little on the right.  And she's a 48lb bow now, and still have work to do on the right limb.  Going to put her away for a while.  Little discouraged.
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 28, 2008, 06:53:54 pm
Yeah.....walk away...and let it rest....and look at it in a different perspective next time...Don't worry about the Poundage ...you can Pike it later and heat treat the Back and get back about 10-15 pounds....Good Luck
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: Marc St Louis on June 28, 2008, 09:00:30 pm
I don't think I would be heat treating the back, the belly maybe
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 28, 2008, 09:31:20 pm
I don't think I would be heat treating the back, the belly maybe

                                      MY BAD!!!!! What an A##!!!! Yeah the Belly.....Duh!!!!!!!! Thanks Marc........

                                                                              :o :-[
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 28, 2008, 11:32:18 pm
ElD, what do you mean by pike?  Is this putting in reflex at the handle?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 03:06:41 am
ElD, what do you mean by pike?  Is this putting in reflex at the handle?

 Cutting the Tips down an inch or two each to get the Weight back up
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: Eric Krewson on June 29, 2008, 11:36:10 am
When ever I see questionable tiller I always wonder "why didn't he use a tillering gizmo". Used from the long string to about 20" of draw it will give you perfect tiller as long as you can eyeball some limb movement in the fade out area.

Lots of newbies could make a great bow on their first try if they would make one of these simple tools.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=033419
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 12:46:13 pm
You are right...they work great....cant take wood off where it shouldnt...if you follow the Pencil Lines!!!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: Eric Krewson on June 29, 2008, 12:55:06 pm
That sure is a fancy gizmo. Did you make it or buy it?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 01:13:21 pm
                    I made it...............well .....at least I made the Money and bought it............ >:D
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: George Tsoukalas on June 29, 2008, 01:25:09 pm
El, you gave good advice on how to fix the tiller. I was impressed. I'm not sure I understand some of the previous posts regarding offering suggestions, particularly to beginners, regarding tiller especially since advice was requested. In the old days mentoring took care of that. No longer an option seemingly these days. Unfortunately, some see it as undue criticism. That's unfortunate. How else can people be helped? Anyway, looks like the tips are slightly recurved. Not sure if I would pike it. Jawge
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: radius on June 29, 2008, 01:34:06 pm
where'd ya buy that sucker, El D?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 01:41:46 pm
where'd ya buy that sucker, El D?

If I told Ya...I'd have ta come to Canada and Kill Ya....and Ya know I ain't allowed there....at least not without the Prime Minister's Consent!!!!  ;D >:D ;)

Nah........give me a Bit and I will find the Company in Germany I bought it from....I'll get back to Ya!!

And Jawge.....I try very hard to be helpful and not Judgemental....but sometimes people just don't want to hear it....so I will do it off Site...just to keep from hurting some feelings....must be sad to be so touchy feelly!!!!
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: radius on June 29, 2008, 01:46:47 pm
thanks...you are a real helpful guy, Mike, full of energy for the good of others...what a prince
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 01:47:58 pm
thanks...you are a real helpful guy, Mike, full of energy for the good of others...what a prince

                                                   I aim to Please.....dontcha know!!!!!!!!!

                                   The Guys Name is Kunst Griff...his email is  kunst-griff@online.de
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: radius on June 29, 2008, 02:57:30 pm
thanks fo the info....i checked out that ebay page...but i think i'll just make one instead...What diameter is the pencil lead in there?  Where'd you get the replacements?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 03:15:47 pm
thanks fo the info....i checked out that ebay page...but i think i'll just make one instead...What diameter is the pencil lead in there?  Where'd you get the replacements?


2mm and I got them from an Office Supply store
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: radius on June 29, 2008, 03:18:54 pm
2mm????   That's tiny!  What are the dimensions on that little gizmo?  Length, width, thickness?  Looks like about an inch wide?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: loco cacahuate on June 29, 2008, 04:58:39 pm
Check out Eric's link above, all the details you need. Very simple to make.
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 29, 2008, 05:03:56 pm
ElD, what do you mean by pike?  Is this putting in reflex at the handle?

 Cutting the Tips down an inch or two each to get the Weight back up


I made the bow 67" Tip to Tip but is more like 65" NTN.  I did this incase I had to fix a wieght issue.  The story of this bow was I made it at the balt trad classic.  The guy running the show said he never uses tiller sticks or tiller trees.  Only by eyeballing.  So we worked on our bows Thursday night until Sunday at 2PM.  I was the only one with a string on the bow.  I scraped and scraped on that right limb because I knew it was stiffer.  Then he was packing up, and said "go ahead and shoot it, I think its ready".  Ok, I shot it, it was ok.  It was 57lbs at 29" draw.  So I ended up shooting it like 100 times and got a bunch of string follow on that right limb.  Sooo, I reflexed the tips at the same time as trying to get out a little prop twist.    Long story short, I think he saw the hinge and thought there is no way he is going to hit his weight and deal with the hinge, and he was packing up to go home.  

Looking back, I think I should have been using a tiller tree from the beginning.  

So with all that said, I should have waited before putting on my fancy antler tips.  

I have kinda used this bow as a learning project, and this is one more learning experience.  So far, I learned a little about steaming in reflex, laying out a bow, chasin rings, building the bow, etc, and now tillering issues.  Now, I guess I will finish up my learnin on tillering with this one bow, and learn about pikin and heat treating the belly.  I have read Hamm's book on heat treating the belly.

Eric, you showed me that tool on tradgang.  I think its really cool, but not sure how it would work on twisty osage.  Hickory or black locust, I bet will be great.  
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: D. Tiller on June 29, 2008, 09:15:30 pm
How do these tools work on charector wood?
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: El Destructo on June 29, 2008, 09:26:04 pm
They will still help you some...but if the Stave is really kinky....you have to look past the kinks and dips to see the whole Picture....and not really worry about every inch curving the same
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: Pat B on June 30, 2008, 12:16:47 am
I used mine today on a yew bow I'm working on with a few knots and an uneven back. I was having trouble getting the tiller right and developed a hinge. Without this gizmo I wouldn't have been successful. I put about 50 arrows through her today and she's gonna be a good shooting bow. This is the first time I have really used it and will definitely use it again.  ;)    Pat
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: Pappy on June 30, 2008, 07:31:39 am
I use it some after I get it braced,not much till then,especilly if it has a lot of character or backset.
It can fool me then. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Tiller advice
Post by: bigcountry on June 30, 2008, 02:00:07 pm
Ok, guys I have cheered up, looked at the bow in different views, and ready to start tillering again.  I have a bunch of sinew and I believe some working room to bring the wieght up, but want to get the tiller right.  If only to learn how to do it right.  I spent alot of time with my tip overlays and should have waited to put them on.  Oh well. 

Ok, what would you guys do?  Would you first work on the left limb (the one with the hinge) and work right near the handle to get it bending more and right after midlimb to 6" from the tip?  Or should I start working on the right limb first getting it to bend more.  In my eyes, the right limb is bending nicely just too stiff compared to the left one.

After thinking about it, no matter if I got the right limb bending more, I still can't leave that left limb hinged like that. That hinge is right where there is a cluster of 4 pin knots.