Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Papa Matt on July 28, 2008, 02:18:00 pm

Title: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Papa Matt on July 28, 2008, 02:18:00 pm
Brothers~

  Are there any advantages to using this wood for bows, any reason to prefer this wood over any other common bowwood?

~~Papa Matt
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Badger on July 28, 2008, 02:22:55 pm
   I like hornbeam better than most woods simply because it has always been very reliable for me. Iseldom have surprises with it. It likes being dry but seems to tolerate my climate where I live at about 8 or 9% moisture pretty well. Seems strong in both compression and tension and seems well ballanced to itself in both these area allowing for good demensions. Steve
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: bigcountry on July 28, 2008, 02:35:02 pm
I have shot some sweet hophornbeam before.  I didn't make it, but shot nice.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: JackCrafty on July 28, 2008, 03:05:09 pm
Hophornbeam is excellent wood for bows...especially when using small diameter saplings.  The back can be crowned without much danger of splintering.  It's a lot like osage, but stiffer (less flexible), harder, and with less knots.  Also, if you like the look of bark on the back, HHB is a good choice (just rub off the outer "scales").

If you plan on making a lot of HHB bows, make sure you have an easy way to sharpen your tools....it's REALLY tough wood when dry.


I'd like to make some more bows from HHB but right now I'm concentrating on juniper (which is almost the exact opposite of HHB in terms of characteristics). ;D
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 03:21:09 pm
I made a couple of bows and didn't care for the performance.  We have high humidity here though.  I certainly wouldn't say it compares to osage.  But a couple of bows out of a single stave is not the most comprehensive test.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Papa Matt on July 28, 2008, 04:45:48 pm
Is it a slow-shooter compared to other wood?

~~Papa Matt
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: JackCrafty on July 28, 2008, 05:00:38 pm
Many have observed that whitewood is generally slower than osage or the tropical woods (like ipe).  Moisture is a big factor...osage and ipe perform well in humid weather.  If dry, whitewood performs the same, IMO.

According to TBB, all wood basically performs the same as long as the bow is designed properly for the wood used. ;D
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Papa Matt on July 28, 2008, 05:11:07 pm
Jackcrafty, what's your preferred cross section design for it, if it was split out of a 4 inch log, and the bow is to be 68" long, roughly 60#?
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 05:38:12 pm
Try getting wood dry in the Midwest this year.  Tough job and getting tougher by the minute.  Had another 4" of rain last night, total of 15" for July so far.

Matt my one bow took some set and was a fairly slow shooter.  I made a short bendy-handle bow that performed reasonably well.  So I would conclude that this is the "TBB proper design".
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Papa Matt on July 28, 2008, 05:41:39 pm
Tom, do you mean the HHB proper design?
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 05:42:19 pm
According to TBB, all wood basically performs the same as long as the bow is designed properly for the wood used. ;D

If its in a Bible it must be true.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: JackCrafty on July 28, 2008, 05:43:44 pm
I suggest an oval cross section in the handle (about 1 1/8" wide) that slowly becomes rectangular toward the tips (1/2").  The handle should bend very little with a 68" bow....and the tips can be quite narrow with HHB, especially if you use horn nocks.  If you use self nocks, make the tips a little wider.  The shape from the front is basically a pyramid design with most of the bending occurring where the bow limbs have the most mass.

The HHB bows I have were made from 1 1/2" saplings and are semicircular (in cross section) the whole length (except for the handle).
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 05:45:50 pm
Actually the TBB-approved HHB proper design.

But of course I was being fecitious, I don't think there's necessarily one design that stands out.

Jack your suggesting a sort of ELB style bow, that surprises me as a suggestion for a whitewood.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: JackCrafty on July 28, 2008, 05:50:06 pm
Tom, if it's in a Bible that I spent good money on.....then it HAS to be true. ;)

Yep, the ELB design works pretty good for wood that is strong in both tension and compression (like HHB).  No?
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Dano on July 28, 2008, 06:00:30 pm
Looks like the whitewood wars are still on, I love the smell of burnt hickory in the morning >:D
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 06:48:11 pm
Heck I don't know, I never considered any ELB to be that great of a performer.  I do see certain advantages in an oval cross section, and a 68" bow won't have a hard bend.  Narrowing the outer limbs will counter the mass in the length to some extent.  Would that be preferable to a 64" 1.5"+ width to mid-limb?  Who knows.  I built the latter and wasn't that impressed, but that is one stave and done in a humid environment.  Plus I am not the best bowyer to begin with

Dano, I did smoke some ribs yesterday with a little hickory.  Might've drifted West overnight.  The ribs were a hit.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Badger on July 28, 2008, 06:53:59 pm
  I still believe that almost anywood can be used for any design you want to make as long as you use the proper demensions. My bendy handle hhb bow was about 140# and 1 1/8 wide about 72" long. Took no set and was a real screamer. I still can't see any significant difference in performance between any wood as long as the mc is right. Some woods are more tolerant of moisture than others no doubt. Steve
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: JackCrafty on July 28, 2008, 07:06:17 pm
As far as performance, all my bows tend to be a bit slow anyway...flat, ELB, pyramid...etc.  The fastest bow I have is a juniper recurve.  Maybe a wide limb HHB recurve would be the fastest design?  ;)
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: PatM on July 28, 2008, 08:12:18 pm
Didn't Marc just mention "White lightning" on the "fastest selfbow" thread?
 HHB is outstanding wood and even better with heat treating.

 Pat
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Rich Saffold on July 28, 2008, 08:27:17 pm
Hop Hornbeam is great stuff...Especially when very  dry.. ;D

Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Marc St Louis on July 28, 2008, 10:00:22 pm
Some of my fastest bows have been made out of HHB.  Only the very best Osage can beat HHB and even that is debateable
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 28, 2008, 10:10:43 pm
So hop hornbeam is martini wood (best when dry).
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Pappy on July 29, 2008, 05:34:33 am
What Badger and Marc said,I would rank it right up at the top of wood I have used and
I have used a lot of different wood.Maybe not as good as Osage but much better than
Hickory at least as far as resisting moisture after it is finished. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: GregB on July 29, 2008, 08:16:11 am
I agree with Badger, Marc, and Pappy...HHB and osage are at the very top of my preferred wood list for bows. We haven't had as much success getting HHB to take as much reflex as osage with its natural oils which is easily recurved. If you get HHB dry, and induce some reflex it makes an excellant bow. My #1 hunting bow this fall is an HHB.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 29, 2008, 08:57:26 am
It is a very good bow wood. I like it but it's not  my fav. Bow woods are climate specific. You all know that. A good  barometer is too see what the Native Americans used. In New England white oak, hickory and black locust were used. Jawge
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: Papa Matt on July 29, 2008, 09:39:23 am
George, I'm in south-eastern Indiana, what wa popular among NA here? I've always wondered since we have a lot of native bow woods, Black Locust, HHB, White Ash, 3 or 4 kinds of hickory, Elm, etc.

~~Papa Matt
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: DCM on July 29, 2008, 10:49:14 am
I can't believe no one has mentioned it doesn't get as big as most white woods and it frequently grows with more twist or character than most whitewoods.  But I agree it's probably faster than osage with very low moisture content.  I think it is more brittle than say hickory, certainly elm.  I have popped a back ring a couple of times with hhb, where those little ridges form usually.  One survived a with a CA repair, not even a wrap job which I adhore.  I'd rather start a new bow than wrap a limb.  Other I haven't tested again but it was a very high stress design, and a much large crack.  If it's any measure of my opinion, hhb was the only wood besides osage I tried for the 58", 60# @ 28" "Ambush bow" contest.  It is the aforementioned that popped big on the back ring.  I don't think it would do as well, as osage, in a high humidy environment.

Can't say there are any real advantages over other woods though.  Each wood, hell each specimen, has it's own unique strenghts and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Any advantages to Hop Hornbeam?
Post by: DanaM on July 29, 2008, 10:55:03 am


Can't say there are any real advantages over other woods though.  Each wood, hell each specimen, has it's own unique strenghts and weaknesses.

Now that is well said :)

Heck I just made a Sumac bow I will post in a week or so, everyone said you can't make a bow from Sumac ??? Of course its not white wood its Green :D