Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: D. Tiller on July 29, 2008, 08:02:13 pm
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Any of you just heat a section of the shaft then straighten it then set it aside to cool before heating and straightening another section? I have gotten into a method where I heat and straighten one shaft and then more on to another hand have six going at once. Do you all do it similar like?
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Yuppers :)
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Yep, or heat one end, then the other alternating.
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With hardwood shoots I usually start with the most serious bends and straighten them. I do a few shafts at a time and set them aside til later. Then I come back and do the lesser bends and put them away again. Finally I temper them by starting at one end and rotate the shaft slowly over the flame while moving from one end to the other. When doing this be careful of possible steam coming out the far end. I take this time to scorch a camo pattern into the shaft. After tempering I wait a few days before making arrows in case the shaft is brittle from tempering.
I'm still trying to get my groove with cane. ;D Pat
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Heat straightening is a bit tricky....I'll let a shaft cool if I use a lot of heat on a particular bend...but I usually try to straighten one shaft at a time. If I put a shaft down, it takes me a while to get back in the "zone"......I lose my place, if you know what I mean.
With shoots, I use two straightening tools: one that has a sharp radius bend and the other with a larger radius. I start with the worst bends first....because that is where the shoot is most likely to fail. If the shoot breaks at this stage, I've saved myself some time.
With cane, I straighten the bends between the nodes first (easy) and then attack the nodes (difficult)....and I use only my hands. If the bend is too difficult to remove with my bare hands, it will probably break if I use a straightening tool. I also allow more time for cooling.
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Thats about what I figured. Have not played with cane yet but hope to one day. futzin with some Salmon berry shoots now and I think they have the same potential as cane when dry. When new they are really flimsy but harden up like plastic or carbin when dry.
David T
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One of my biggest problems is the tempering. I will get scorched arrows every time. Right now I am using a propane torch, but going to try and come up with something better. Been looking on the net to try and fine instruction to make one of the Korean type stoves. Anyone know how to build one or info on them?
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One of my biggest problems is the tempering. I will get scorched arrows every time. Right now I am using a propane torch, but going to try and come up with something better.
It's really easy to scorch shafts with a torch, even turned down as low as they'll go, they still concentrate too much heat in one spot. A heat gun works great, or coleman campstove set low, alchohol burner, coal from the campfire, the list is endless.
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Is there a risk of the cane losing some of its straightness during tempering just by putting heat on them again and they possibly want to go back to their original shape? Seems like I've seen some of this during straightening...
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My cane did walk all over when i heat tempered it. I had them roughly straightened then put the heat to them to temper and they twisted at almost every node. So i heat treat first then straighten. Saves me time.
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Like Hillbilly on the straightening - alternate ends on one shaft till all innernodes are done, set aside and work on another, set aside and go back to the first one and straighten the nodes. Usually am working three at a time and I use a candle for heat with cooking oil on the shaft - works great for me.
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Sounds like a good plan Hickoryswitch!
Hi Cowboy, are you getting any soot staining on your arrows using a candle? Does the cooking oil seem to make a big difference, first I've heard of using it on cane.
Also, is the tempering necessary in order to keep the cane straight? I've got I think 19 cane arrows now and they haven't been tempered other then whatever received by straightening.
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Greg, I never temper cane, and have had no problems with it warping or whatever. It does seem to help some with hardwood shoots.
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Greg, By heat straightening you are also tempering to an extent. I believe Chris Cade tempers his cane first before straightening it. The second half of his article in the Bowyers Journal he mentions it.
I used to use oil with cane but I don't think it is necessary. You can see the natural oils coming out when you heat it. If you temper after straightening lay the cane on a flat table top and roll it with your hands and that will help to re-straighten any areas that re-bend. Pat
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Hmmmm....tempering cane...interesting idea. Personally I try to use the least amount of heat that I possibly can on the cane (or reed). There's also the possibility that too much hot air will build up inside the cane and make it "pop".
The only heat treating I do is on reed: the natural wax on the outside gets really glossy when exposed briefly to heat. I use a heat gun, by the way (unlike a fire, there's no smoke....and no irritated eyes ;D).
I too have noticed that cane and reed will "remember" it's natural shape when exposed to heat (after straightening). Heck, shoots will do that too sometimes.
The only arrow wood I'll temper is hickory....and only on the sharpened wood tips. I've tried tempering privet, but it just gets brittle.
Oh yeah, I never use grease, oil, or whatever. I think that the grease will make paint less likely to stick to the shaft. On cane and reed, I scrape off the natural wax in the area(s) where it will be painted.
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In the video of the Asian straightening the cane in an over, he is tempering as he straightens. Look at the color of the cane. Tempering stiffens the cane and makes it more compression strong. You do have to give it time to rehydrate before stressing it. The same with hardwood shoots, boo belly slats and heat treating bow bellies. Pat
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The video does show the arrow-maker heating the entire shaft, and the shaft looks dark, but I wonder if he is just saving time by heating the whole arrow and straightening all bends at the same time. I guess he could be tempering the shafts as well.
IMO, Tempering seems like it might be a good idea for some types of flimsy bamboo (?), but I have some questions about the whole idea of tempering cane or reed:
1. When heating cane (and especially reed) if the thin outer layer gets too hot, it lifts, bubbles, and peels off. I wonder if the cane will be heated enough to be tempered without "toasting" the outer skin of the cane. Also, I wonder if it would be more effective to just heat all the canes in an oven, at the same time, where you can control the temperature better.
2. How do you control the effect of tempering on arrow spine? Do you let the shafts cool and rehydrate...and then check for spine? What if the spine is too stiff? "Oops, there goes another arrow". Or what if the spine is too flexible? "Darn, now I got to heat it up again and wait another day to check this shaft". Seems like an unnecessary hassle. ;)
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Patrick, I rarely even consider spine. With cane its not that critical. The natural taper will reduce the spine by 10# and I leave my shafts long(29" for 26" draw). That extra inch above the 28" standard will decrease the spine by 5#. So right there a 50# spined arrow would shoot like a 35# spined arrow
When I heat cane for any reason; straightening and tempering, I give them time to rehydrate. They are too brittle otherwise.
If I am not mistaken, in Asian cultures they almost always temper their cane shafts. Pat
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After the initail heating tempering/straightening, what is considered a good length of time to rehydrate?
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For straightening I like to let the shafts cool at least over night. For tempering I give them a day or 2 before I start to make arrows from them. Pat
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Great conversation guys on tempering pro's and con's...thanks!
Now what do yall think about sealing the finished cane arrow? I'm sure it has a certain amount of natural protection...but I've worked the nodes down and think at a minimum they should be sealed. Do yall seal cane shafts, and if so what do you use? ;)
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I'm new with cane but have used both spar and tru oil to seal the shafts. I like both and both seem to stand up to lots of shooting without compromise on the finish.
Tracy
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I have used Tru-Oil but on most primitive shafts I use pitch varnish to seal them. I don't seal cane unless I have violated the rind like if I sand the nodes which I don't always do. Pat.
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Pat. Could you elaborate on how you make your pitch varnish? And if anyone would, that uses some sort of aid in straightening their cane, could you post some pictures of it? This is all great info. Keep things going so we all can learn.
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Basically all I do is dissolve pine pitch in denatured alcohol and strain it. The hardened pitch works best because the volatile oils have evaporated and in the varnish, when the alcohol evaporated, the varnish dries hard. If the pitch is still sticky when you dissolve it in alcohol it will be sticky when the alcohol evaporates.
If it is sticky, you can rub it down with fine chalk or charcoal dust to make it not so sticky and eventually it will set up hard.
I believe, but haven't tried it yet, that any plant resins with make varnish if done the same way. There was an article in an older PA Magazine that describes this method.
I do most of my shaft straightening by hand but on severe bends and kinks or if the bend is close to the end of the shaft I use an arrow wrench; a piece of wood with a hole drilled in it to get better leverage. I'll post pics of the wrench a bit later. Pat
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Here are a few of my arrow making tools. The wood with the hole in the end (2 different ones) is an arrow wrench for straightening difficult crooks. I try not to use it much because it will dent the heated shaft material. This usually doesn't effect the shaft except for appearance sake.
The wood handle with the eye bolt and cup hook is also an arrow straightener. In the last 2 pics you see an arrow groover. For cutting lightening grooves in hardwood shoots that are difficult to keep straight. It is a piece of wood with a 3/8" slot cut in it and a sheet rock screw(with a sharpened blade point) that cuts the groove in the shaft. Pat
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Greg, if I sand/dye the shaft (usually do) I like to seal them. Tru-oil works great.
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Thanks again Pat. Gives me some ideas since the hardest part of my cane arrow making is straightening. I guess it comes from 40 plus years in field, fita, and pro shooting, I expect way more out of my arrows than I do my bow or me. Good arrows will make anyone a better shooter. I am learning, but only time will give me the results I want...Please to any others out there willing to share their secrets on cane arrows, jump right in. And as always, pictures are worth a thousand words
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At the yardages I shoot, they don't have to be perfect. I have some arrows you wouldn't think would ever fly but they do.
I don't do 3D courses or compete(except with myself) so my need for a perfect arrow are at a mininum.
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stringstretcher, they aren't that hard to get straight with some practice. Straighten each section between the nodes individually until each one is straight, then bend the nodes to line 'em all up with each other. I like my shafts straight enough to roll across a glass-topped table without wobbling.
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I checked mine out last night by basically spinning the point in the palm of my hand and watching for wobbling. I've gone through my arrows several times in the period of a week or so and check them for straightness. Seems like after several straightening sessions, they finally give it up and decide to straighten up. ;D
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...tempering!!! ;)
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How do you know when it's fully tempered?
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It's fully tempered when it's dark enough to claim braggin' rights: "Hey look everybody....I got tempered shafts! Aint they purdy?". ;D
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David, you are still trying to over engineer this. ;) I guess when it becomes stable. If you look at the video of the Asian guy straightening his shafts in the oven, you will see that his cane shafts aren't pale colored. Just like with tempering boo for bow bellies you want a carmelization to occur so a nice shade of light brown would tell you for sure but I don't think you need to go that far. I'm no expert at cane arrows. I'm still learning also but from watching and listening to others, this is what I have gleaned. Basically you are forcing moisture out and solidifying the resins inside. Pat
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Well this thread really took off :). I'm probably replying too slow Greg, but the cooking oil thing I learned from Mickey Lotz's site. I generally heat one section over the candle until the oil has turned black, then wipe it off and straighten. Haven't notice any discoloration of the cane from doing it that way. I think the oil - once it turns black and you leave it that way for a few seconds helps to hold in and concentrate the heat - the cane is as rubber for a minute afterwards.
OK, I'm going to soak up all this other good info for awhile - I've only done a few dozen cane shafts and am by no means an authority on the subject ;D..
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Cowboy, I've straightened them over a candle without oil with no problem. I thought the soot from the candle had enough oil in it? go figure ::) ???
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When I'm working on shoots I work over my heat gun. Am I using to much heat at once? Should I put it on the low setting instead of the high one? I do oil up the shafts well before hand and then get them hot enough that the almost bend like wet spaghetti noodles. After I get the big bends out I lay them down on the top of a flat work bench the section to be straightened hanging off and hold the shaft down on the bench while I put her straight. Is this a good method?
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David, As long as you don't heat the outside of the shoot and the inside is still relatively cool you should be OK. You want good thorough heat penetration for good bends. The heat gun in fine for heat straightening. Just keep the shaft moving.
Any method that works without altering or kinking the shaft will be fine. I like oil on my hardwood shoots for straightening. I think it helps to concentrate the heat, hold the heat longer and keeps from scorching the shaft while straightening it. I scorch them later for decoration but not while straightening.
Pat
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I straighten all my shafts over a candle with no oil and i never have a problem.
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I think I've broke three shafts out of about two dozen I've been working on. All three broke at the nodes...I'm straightening the nodes before I work them down any. I'm wondering if using some oil only on the nodes might limber them up a little more to get some movement going. Seems like the ones of mine that broke maybe got to dry because I was using a torch turned down really low and even so the node got pretty hot. These last sessions of straightening I've been using a one burner propane Coleman stove.
I guess I'm trying to determine why they broke...did I just apply too much stress trying to straighten them to quickly, or maybe actually got them to dry/brittle causing them to break? If too dry/brittle, oil might help some.
Cowboy, have you broke any at the nodes while using oil?
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I often use a heat gun on high with no oil for cane and shoots both,. Just keep the shaft constantly turning. Greg, every time I pop a node, it's usually because of overheating it, bending it too fast, or a combination of the two-but usually just overheating. I've broken a lot more heating with a torch than a heatgun or campstove, the torch even on low seems to be too hot.
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I may give the heatgun a try and compare it to the campstove. This last one I broke was already fletched ...just trying to tweak the node somemore. Ouch!
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Stringstretcher you might try using a 3 pound coffee can turned over on a stove top or a camp stove burner. Just put holes in the side that match and at differand levels and maybe a few in the top this should let some of the heat out but should also keep a lot of heat in so you can do what you want st righen or temper them just slide the shaft through the hole at the right level to get the heat that you want. This should let you heat about 6" of the shaft at a time and using different hight will give you different temps. Tom
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Nice idea Tom! I will have to try that out.
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Thanks Napper. That is simular to what the Asian's use, but they have compressed charcoal in theirs, sort of like a forge.
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Now to find a coffee can! I don't drink coffee no more! :( The ol'body said no more ya ol'goat! :D ;D ;)
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Hey D Tiller. You are like me, and I am not telling anyone that my can is a 3 lb prune can either.....lol
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Now to find a coffee can! I don't drink coffee no more! :( The ol'body said no more ya ol'goat! :D ;D ;)
Good luck their all plastic nowadays :D
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I went through mine this weekend and ended up with a dozen that shot really well from my bow. I gave another 5 away to a friend I hunt with...that left 2 that wouldn't fly for either of us. One of them was spined way too low, and the other was spined really heavy. I'm going to let Anthony shoot them and see if he can use them...the light spined one might could be cut off some to increase spine and fly okay. ;)
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I get it! Anthony gets the rejects. ::)
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I get it! Anthony gets the rejects.
"One man's rejects...could be another man's treasure!"
"Waste not, want not!" ;D
I'm sure there's a few other saying's that apply as well. ;)
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I've been using a heatgun for straightening. Haven't used any oil. Just keep the shaft moving. Only broke one node this time. I wasn't paying attenetion & got carried away bending it.
I had a fella at Mojam that is an arrow maker, tell me to drill a small hole in the shaft between the nodes. Lets the moisture in the shaft stabilize & they won''t split later on. Watched the Korean guy on You Tube & noticed that he took a piece of steel & poked a hole in the arrow. Guess I'll give it a try.
Butch
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I noticed the burning a hole thing on the Korean video, too-but I don't think it's necessary myself. I've made lots and lots of cane arrows, and I've yet to have one split, even after many years. I wouldn't want holes for moisture to seep into myself.
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Hillbilly.
I thought about that myself. Have only been messing with cane & 'boo for about 3 years so, I don't have that much experience. The way I shoot, an arrow probably isn't going to last long enough for me to worry about splitting :D.
I saw a video on you tube by Paleoaleo on making cane arrow. I sure learned a bunch on straightening cane & 'boo.
Butch
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With the heat that guy in the video was using to straighten/temper his shafts it would probably be better to put in a small hole to relieve any internal pressures. My arrows aren't that precise. I've never had on split either. Pat
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I've put bamboo in a fire before and the pressure created between the nodes is enormous! They go off like a gun shot and throw splinters everywhere. Its a safety precaution. With Arrow Bamboo I would definitely do this!!!!
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Yeah, any cane or bamboo will explode if you heat it too much and expand the trapped air, but you shouldn't be heating it anywhere near that much to straighten it. It usually has to have flames coming out of it before it goes kapow. I've seen big piles of bamboo and cane being burned, and it sounds like a war in progress. Butch, I usually don't have to worry about keeping arrows that long, either. :)
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I normally use the compression method for straightening cedar arrow shafts. I use steam to straighten out my atlatl darts.