Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ryano on August 14, 2008, 01:29:47 pm
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I'm making a osage longbow for a fellow with a 29" draw and monster sized hands. He wanted it to have a large grip, much larger than my usual design grips. So I'm making him a 66" ntn 50# straight reflexed longbow with a two inch longer handle fade section than I normaly make. 8" being my normal, so ten inches. The grip is both thicker and wider than usual as well. My question is would a larger than normal grip make the bow feel more shocky? I was thinking a heavier grip would lessen the effect of handshock if anything but this thing about shakes my teeth out. I keep narrowing the outer limbs but its still very noticable compared to my normal bows. I'm with in a pound or two of my desired draw weight at 29" I don't know what to do. Oh, ya I tried raising the brace height and I'm shooting 600 grain arrows of the proper spine.....Any idea's?
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If you have a bulbous handle you could reduce the fades a bit. I have never built a bow with a ten inch handle area, but man I woulda thought that it would reduce shock as well.
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Hey, Ryan
I made a hickory backed osage Holmegaard bow that would loosen your fillings it had so much hand shock. I made another, with exact same dimensions, instead I used hickory backed maple. The maple bow was sweet as garden peas... no hand shock at all. Who knows?! I do find most osage bows (either self or laminate) are more shocky than whitewoods. I was always told it was the tiller and heavy limbs or tips, which increased hand shock. Also, poorly tillered limbs, which are out of time, cause more hand shock. I would think that a larger grip, with longer fades, would decrease hand shock.
Bye the bye, I retillered the cartilage wrecking osage Holmegaard, and hand shock went way down... still there, but much less.
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This is exactly why I swore I'd never make another osage bow over 64" ntn again. The last 66"er I made felt the same way. I ended up cutting it down to 64"ntn and it was fine. I was thinking with the longer non working handle section it would be alright but, I guess not. Here's another question then. Since I only draw about 27" and he draws 29" do you think it would feel any different to him? I hate to cut off finished tips...
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Ryan,
I can see your thought process that the longer fades are acting like a shock absorber for the handle. But with his longer draw even though you made your ntn longer then usual, the bow might require more working limb to smooth it out? I don't know for sure, I know you're making your tips good and narrow/lite weight cause I've seen your bows... ???
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I have made them with non bending sections out to 12". I think a handle that fits your hand makes you feel less shock. Too much wood or too little will make it feel more shocky just by the fact that it doesn't fit your hand so you don't grip it right. I try to fit my handles to the archer before I apply a finish. Justin
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Ryan,
I can see your thought process that the longer fades are acting like a shock absorber for the handle. But with his longer draw even though you made your ntn longer then usual, the bow might require more working limb to smooth it out? I don't know for sure, I know you're making your tips good and narrow/lite weight cause I've seen your bows... ???
Greg, with a 2" longer handle it should have the same amount of working limb as a 64" right? Seems like it should be about the same. I don't know. I'm finish sanding it and reshaping the fades and grip area a bit, see if it makes any diferance.
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usually bigger riser absorbs more shock than the smaller one.. IMO..
David
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One other thing you might want to check out and that's your string Ryan. What string material are you using and how many strands? Just adding or subtracting a few strands can make a big difference in the way the bow is going to feel and sound. Have you shot the bow without a armguard on? This can tell you (where the string contacts the arm) if you have to much stretch in your string or limb deformation or both.-ART B
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I'm with what David and Art posted, I've used endless synthetic strings for the past ten years because of the performance improvements, in both speed and sweetness of shot..
Try changing where the arrow is being shot from..touchy bows like this often have a sweet spot.
Pics?
Rich
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I normally would agree with Ryan's thinking. I don't know what to suggest so I'm reading and learning. This is interesting and I'm looking forward to the results.
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How much reflex did you retain? One thing I have found is the more reflex my finished bows retain in the outer 1/3 of the limb, the less hand shock I feel.(to a point) This in addition to all the other factors already mentioned.
Mark
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I'll try to post a picture in the morning. It holds a couple inches of reflex. The string is B-50 16 strands. The same thing I use on pretty much all my bows. I hate skinny strings. I tweaked the tiller a little bit and kept narrowing the tips, she's @49#@29" now so I'm not going to mess with it anymore. Its much better than it was to begin with but still not real comfy for me to shoot. I just think the wide handle area is uncomfortable to me and causing it to feel worse to me than it really is.
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The last one I built over 64,I think it was 68 with a 29 inch draw I thought was shocky
also,but I only shot it at 26,The guy that got it didn't say a thing about it except he loved it
and it was a sweet shooter. ???I do think the longer ones have more shock. :) What was the
reason for making the handle section longer,for a long draw I make the n-n longer but leave
the handle section the same just to get more working limb. :)
Pappy
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Pappy the reason for making the nock to nock longer was the handle being longer, its what the guy wants. Big hands......
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Ryan, you really owe it to yourself to try FF or low stretch material. FF is cheapest at ~$25 for 9000'. Not a whole lot more than B50 really. I'll send you enough to make a string for it if you'd like. The difference will be like night and day, particularly on longer bows or bows with lots of early weight. Honestly.
You can make it thicker if you insist, 18 strand FF diameter would be pretty close to 16 B50. But it's not the diameter that matters, it's the low stretch. 14 strand FF and a single wrap of #4 Nylon serving fits Bohning index nocks loose, 15 strands perfect. Heck I'll send you some serving too.
Email your snail mail address. Really. You're gonna kick yourself for waiting so long when you finally come over to the dark side of low stretch strings. Hard headed sob.
dcm4@comcast.net
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Vibration travels in waves, maybe the peak of the wave just happens to fall where you are gripping. You might try tweaking the tiller of one or the other limb, might push the handle area more into a node instead of the peak. Or have him tryr it, very possible that his draw style might affect this and it won't rattle his teeth. I'd only cut it shorter as a last resort, and then maybe only the bottom limb which would also have th effect of moving the vibrational nodes.
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Mims I swear you must own stock in that FF company.
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I'm just going by what I know Lennie. And to be honest, nobody I ever talked into trying FF came back and said they like B50 better. Opposite is the case actually. But I only try the help the ones I like, so you can stick w/ the B50 if you prefer a slow, shocky bow. Actually, judging from what I've seen you make..... LOL Hope all is well. Ain't been seeing you around too much lately. Has the weather dried out for ya'll yet?
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I did buy a roll of FF after all your nagging. But then I bought five more rolls of B50 at MOJAM, so I guess I'm a slow learner. Color coordination is tough at $25 a roll.
Practically a drought, no rain for over a week. I've been busy making wine and beer, got a cherry Belgian going, plum wine, apple/cherry cider, just started a peach/banana wine and the wife scored me stuff for a brown ale that I'll brew this weekend. Figure by next year I'll have to become an alcoholic or find some more friends.
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It won't be too hard to find more friends Lennie, with that good home brew around. ;D
I am one of those that David talked into useing FF, thank you, I haven't looked back. Although the Dryad bow guys are useing something called excel or something like that ??? Talk about quieting a bow, I just haven't been able to find any yet.
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Lennie I wish you lived closer, ya cheap bastid, I'd trade you some string material for some of them liquers. You done took up with too many wimmens in the house boy, bein' all worried about what color everything is. Here's a hint, buy black. Then you only need the one spool. LOL
When I use the term FF, I mean all low stretch modern material. FF just happens to be the cheapest, allthough probably the least efficient in terms of strenght per mass among the new stuff. But serves me well. Funny how (professional) bowyers figured out the new string material game, huh? Heck, if linen weren't so expensive, and fragile relative to the new super materials, I'd be advocating it. I wish it didn't bug the B50 fellars so much, but heck, I can't help it. If it's better... it's better. Not my fault.
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LMAO....David, thanks for the offer buddy but like I said this bow ain't for me its for a big handed feller and I'm delivering it to him this weekend So your FF strings not gonna help me at this point. I will sugest it to him if he thinks its to shockey. I promise I'll try it one of these days.....Thing is I don't like how noisy it seems on a glass bow compared to b-50 string and I shoot bare fingers no glove or tab so thin abrasive strings don't sit well with me for the most part..... :P
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I did my share of chrono testing on strings over ten years ago, and learned the difference between a flemish b-50 and a same strand endless style "ff" string to use Davids' term could be over 20 fps. :o
Plus the bow shoots worlds sweeter and quieter..It's just better...When you make bows at this level the string performance matters a lot more...
I say get a roll of black spectra from folks at BCY fibers. These guys know their stuff and they are on the East Coast..
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OK, OK, jeez.....I'm going to a big shoot tomarrow with vendor's. I'll see if I can pick some up there.