Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Red Dwarf on September 25, 2008, 09:40:51 pm
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Can someone please help me out with a few basics here, I am a little confused? ???
Why is positive tiller required on a longbow?
Is it required on recurves?
How does the desired amount vary with shooting style? EG Split finger or 3 under, high or low grip on the bow?
Red Dwarf
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Hmmmm....I'm not sure I know what positive tiller is. I'd be interested in hearing the replies on this one. ;D
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Don't really have my head wrapped around it either, but from what I read, positive tiller happens from having the bottom limb slightly stiffer than the top, therefore, the tiller is slightly greater (or positive) from the bottom. This is done for split finger style VS three under. However, if I read it correctly, even tiller would be for three under when to me it seems you would want it the opposite.
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Because on a bow with symetrical limbs your not pulling from the exact center of the bow, usualy any where from a 1 to 1 1/2" above center. So the lower limb needs to be slightly stiffer to keep the limbs in time. More so if you shoot three fingers under less if you shoot split finger. This is also why some people prefer the asymetrical limbs with a shorter bottom limb, then its not really nessasary to have positive tiller...... ::)
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Because on a bow with symetrical limbs your not pulling from the exact center of the bow, usualy any where from a 1 to 1 1/2" above center.
Uh...OK?
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Positive tiller means that the string is further away from the limb when the bow is at brace on one limb, than exactly the corresponding place on the other limb. +/- tiller is usually not more than 1/4" to 3/8". In other words... if you braced your bow and measured 6" up the limb from center and then measured the distance to the string (like brace height), and then did the same on the other limb, if there is any difference, it is either + or - tiller.
Ryan is correct, with equal length limbs (meaning the bow is tillered at its geographic center), you want the top limb slightly weaker, as it becomes shorter when you grip the bow. Because you grip the bow at it's center, this makes the top of your hand (which is the same as the arrow rest) about 1 1/2" above center. This makes the bottom limb that much longer, so it needs to be slightly stiffer to compensate. Some people, and Dean Torges is a big proponent of this, make their bows with a shorter bottom limb to compensate for this. Meaning... the bow is now tillered at the arrow rest. With this style you can make the tiller even. Also, with a shorter bottom limb, the fulcrum of the bow is now at the arrow rest, not in the middle of your hand. This is an advantage, because after you release the arrow, the bottom limb doesn't pull forward and "drag anchor" so to speak. I've made bows both ways, and I do prefer the shorter bottom limb, but they are much harder to tiller correctly, because it's a bit of an optical illusion.
Hope this helps!
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Here's another scenario to help... after you've tillered a bow with equal length limbs, and you've mounted your arrow rest the standard 1 1/2" above center to compensate for your hand, hold the bow on your outstretched finger to balance it at the arrow rest. What happens? Well... the bottom limb will fall to the floor because it is heavier (because it is longer). This same scenario happens when you shoot. After you release, the bottom limb will "fall" forward because it is longer (& heavier). With a shorter bottom limb, the balance point is at the arrow rest (not the center of the grip), making the bow balance perfectly in your hand.
+ve tiller comes in with "equal length limb" bows. The bottom limb should be slightly stiffer to compensate for it increased length.
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Look carefully at the pic of this bow at brace. It has been tillered at it's geographic center (the middle of the bow) so both limbs are equal length. The arrow rest is 1" above center, meaning the center of the bow is 1" down the grip. If we go say 4" up the top limb from center and measure the brace height, and do the same thing with the bottom limb, you'll find the distance to the string is slightly more on the top limb... +ve tiller. This is good, because it means the top limb is weaker, and "bending more."
If I was to try and balance this bow at the arrow rest, the bottom limb would droop.
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Assymetrical limbs need positive tiller too
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Good explantion Ryan/adb .Thats how I do it ,just easier for me to show someone why that explane it.Good job on that. :) To much typeing. ;) ;D
Pappy
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Yes, indeed. Excellent explanation by Ryan and adb. adb, the limbs on my bows are the same length. Sometimes I shorten the fades ala Al Herrin to insure that sometimes not. My only disagreement is that my bows are don't dive to the floor when I balance them at the rest by a finger. LOL. They don't. They really don't. :) Jawge
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Assymetrical limbs need positive tiller too
In theory they shouldn't Manny. ??? Not speaking from experience. I hate Asymmetrical limbs. Tried it it about twice and decided it wasn't for me. ;)
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Asymmetrical limbed bows are a bit more difficult to tiller, that's for sure. They seem to trick your eyes. As far as +ve tiller with these bows, they should be tillered even, Manny. There is an excellent article in The Bowyer's Journal about this very subject, written by Dean Torges. His arguement for not tillering with +ve tiller is very convincing. I had to read the article several times to rap my brain around it,but it very much makes sense. He says, if anything, you should tiller these bows even, or with -ve tiller in the top limb! I can't remember the issue of TBJ that it's in, but I'll look it up and post it asap. It's an interesting read.
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Oh , yah... I forgot. It's on his website. www.bowyersedge.com. The article is "Tillering the Organic Bow." Check it out... interesting reading.
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So called "asym" bows require some positive tiller just not as much positive.
How come nobody talked about nock travel?
IMHO, this topic cannot be completely or accurately discussed without understanding the phenomenon, and it's impliications for tuning, and "tiller."
Tillering, in the classical use of the word, is after all simply an effort to control the vertical travel of the arrow, with the objective to have the arrow leave the bow as close to perpendicular to the string as practical but with enough room for adjustment with nock point to avoid interference with the arrow rest. The definition of the word is instructive in this regard:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tiller[4]
Practice from antiquity, as it relates to all natural bows, would be informative here as well I think. Arrow pass at or near center enjoys an advantage as I understand it, particularly in bendy handle designs for obvious reasons. It was not until bows with very stiff risers, deep palm swell and glass limbs were introduced that we became fascinated with having the fulcrum of the bow hand be at dimensional center, as I understand it. For good reason, introducing this asymetry does nothing but tax the material in the upper limb unnecessariy, in my view. If you are using material with gobs of extra work capacity and can afford to, I can see how it is much simpler to setup a form and devise a lam taper formula to glue up this type of bow.
Why do people, not in this discussion but in general, historically, at least in the period after and mostly influenced by TBB as far as I can tell, refer to bows where arrow pass is 1" to 2" above center as being "symetrical?" In fact they are bows with shorter upper limb. Then, when confronted with this conundrum they refer to bows with arrow pass at center as, oddly, "shorter lower limb" when in fact they are equal lower limb? It makes this discussion so much more difficult. I'd argue symetrical better describes a bow where arrow pass is at dimensional center. Regardless of where we position our hands while drawing a bow, what the arrow sees on the loose is the only thing that matters. And when you look at the position of the nock point on a bow where arrow pass is above center, it sure as heck ain't symetrical, rather the upper segment is significantly shorter.
Sorry, can't agree symetrical bows are generally or universally "harder" to build, just different. It's all about what you get used to. If anything asym bows, arrow pass above center, are harder to build because one must compensate doubly, once for the inherent asym of the archers' hand position, and in addition for the asym introducted by raising the arrow pass above center.
Great discussion so far. Would love to hear nock travel, spring theory discussed.
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DCM, we keep bringing up the term fulcrum as regards to the bow which implies it's a lever yet, as bowyers we do everything to prevent our bows from becoming levers i.e. we do not want our bows rocking back and forth as we draw them. I am beginning to conceptualize the bow as a spring. I haven't gone much beyond that. :) Jawge
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In chapter " Who's on first what's a second' Torges advocates to make simmetrical (equal llimbs ) bows with negative tiller, who's making them like that ? ;D
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George,
It is both a spring and a lever I believe. Fulcrum is just a convenient term. It doesn't really matter as long was we communicate effectively the underlying concepts.
I was really disappointed that you did not accept my last invitation to discussion. I hope my style, my choice of language does not put you off, that it's not intimidating. It's not that I am so certain in what I believe that I argue forcefully, if I do, only that if yer gonna argue something there's no point doing a half-arse job of it. Did you read any of that Tapley stuff, the part about nock travel being the natural consequence of short/long spring theory?
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"...to make simmetrical (equal llimbs ) bows with negative tiller..."
I think the most generous evaluation of that article would be to assume he simply used it as a literary device. In a sense he is right, in order to balance the load between the two limbs and prevent fatigue, the shorter limb would need to bend less to reduce the strain on it and bring it into parity with the longer lower limb.
A less generous view would be to observe that even though it would tend to balance the load on the limbs, it would at the same time introduce an inescapable tuning problem. Specifically, given what we know, or should know, or could know about nock travel, making the upper limb stiffer would tend to push the arrow into the arrow pass shelf, rather than away from it at the end of the power stroke. On the other hand, Dean doesn't exactly advocate the arrow pass above center bow. Rather, he advocates arrow pass at center and observes correctly that the arrow pass above center design only exaggerates the asymentry, given the desire to have the arrow leave the bow from perpendicular, or if any disparity nock slightly above arrow pass versus slightly below. Given this constraint, you want the nock travel to be generally above the perpendicular, the natural effect of weaker, longer spring being the upper lmib, versus the opposite.
Although I think I have it right, since this stuff is horribly complex and confusing for me I sure wish more folks would try to understand it and if not explain it to me, at least challenge my understanding, if I'm wrong.
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David
If you take a bow with the dimensional center in the palm of your hand and measure the top and bottom limb then they will both have the same length, or they should. That, to me, is a bow with symetrical limbs. A bow with asymetrical limbs will have the lower limb, usually, shorter than the top limb. If your bows are different then you are making them differently than I am.
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Marc,
I think every bow I make is different from the last, and probably different than yours in some measure of this aspect. And it's easy to have a really long inconsequential exchange about the meaning of terms, how one measures stuff, whether a limb includes the non bending portion above or below dimensional center.
An easier way to have the discussion, the discussion of "Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?" is in my view by approaching the quesition from the point of view of the arrow during the power stroke. That's why I refer to string segments, spring rates of the upper and lower limbs, essentially parroting the work published by Tapley, modelled by Kooi as I understand it.
http://www.goarchers.org.uk/mechanics/
Also, don't think because I advocate a particular point of view that I necessarily have made some kind of value judgment on one variation or preference over another. To put it another way, your bows are excellent as far as I can tell, as are Eric's, or Dean's or JD's or whoever and I know for a fact they all vary considerably in a variety of aspects.
What you've described I would consider a bow with a shorter upper limb, one where the arrow pass is 1" to 1 1/2" above dimensional center and one where the fulcrum of the bow hand, in your terms "the palm of your hand" is at center. Based upon my understanding such a design would require a bit more positive tiller to compensate for or mitigate the tendancy of nock travel in the verticle plane during the power stroke.
But sometimes I can be incredibly dense and stubborn, so if you are game and I've misunderstood or misspoken please keep after me.
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David
I disagree, of course. From what I can see it's simply a matter of perspective. You seem to see the bow from an arrows point of view. I look at the bow from the bows point of view. To me if both limbs are dimensionally equal then they both can take the same strain, not to say they need to or do. This to me makes a bow happy and it can fulfill its function, storing energy for the arrow. The arrow can take care of itself :) and if it is well made will do so. A limb that is dimensionally shorter has less wood for bending purposes, less wood means it's ability to store energy is less. That is the limb that needs to have more positive tiller because it cannot bend as much or it will suffer the consequences...the wood will be more strained so more set.
The reality is that a bow will tell you when it is balanced. All you have to do is feel it as you draw and that can be with some positive tiller or not. Sometimes it will actually be with some negative tiller but that is rare
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OK I am trying to understand things here; excuse me if I go over a few points.
Positive tiller is where the top limb is slightly weaker than the bottom...correct?
One of my bows is a takedown, both limbs are the same length (it has symmetrical limbs). The deepest part of the grip, where the centre of resistance provided by the bow hand is, is in the dimensional centre of the bow. The arrow pass is approximately 1 inch above dimensional centre.
This is a symmetrically limbed bow...correct?
I shoot 3 under. My nocking point is 1/2" above the shelf and I nock my arrow below the nocking point. When I draw the bow I figure that the majority of pressure on my drawing hand is on my middle finger, the centre of which is about 1 1/2" below the nock which means that I am pulling from the centre of the string.
Why does the bow need positive tiller???
Red Dwarf
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David, don't want you to be disappointed. Both sides get entrenched, nothing is solved, terms get thrashed around, the Red Sox are in the play offs and have a chance to win their division. No your style of discussion doesn't put me off. I mean I was raised in a Greek family. You want forceful...Just don't have much more to add to the discussion except this - if the bow is both a spring and a lever then you must feel it is a "compound" machine. Rather ironic. I am willing to discuss the bow as a lever or a spring. I haven't really thought about the spring concept much until our last foray on this topic. I think knowing what the bow is - is pivotal for this discussion. :) Jawge
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Red,
Usually you want an 1/8th to 1/4" more distance from the belly to the string on the upper limb. I shoot with two fingers, and like less than an 1/8 difference on my personal bows. When I shoot "normal" or Mediterranean style there is no difference in how the bow feels.. Why because the arrow just is along for the ride.
And if the bow is shooting properly, How you shoot it doesn't matter enough to feel. I shoot a couple of my bows where the arrow and how I grip the bow is within 1/2" and it feels no different than when I shoot the bow with the arrow 1.5" above center. These factors don't matter whether the tiller is even, or 1/4" positive. The percentage of how far the arrow sits above center is so low it really doesn't matter, especially for all the debating that goes on about it..
The reality is the chronograph shows no advantage to any set-ups mentioned here, so how the bow feels in your hand, and arrow flight matters most.
Rich-even length limbs, symmetry at full draw works for me ;)
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Please excuse me for being slow, I am pretty new to all of this but....If I grip the bow in the centre and pull the string from the centre why do I need positive tiller?
Red Dwarf
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Because you can't apply pressure to the bow at a point perfectly perpendicular to the corresponding place where you apply pressure to the string.... because you can't shoot and arrow thru the center of your hand. Rather one must position the string hand above the bow hand, in effect shortening the upper limb. A short limb stacks ahead of a longer one, so we introduce a little extra weight to the lower from the outset so that at full draw they come into parity.
Sorry guys, I know this topic deserve more attention than I've shown but bow season opens in a few minutes and I been bizzer 'n a cat covering scat.
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DCM, I am disappointed that you do not want to discuss this issue. Seems you have blown us off for hunting season. You can't find time for us? I guess that's the way it goes. :( Jawge
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Just kidding! Season started here in NH 9/15. I haven't seen a deer yet. Hope you get one. Hope I do too. :) Jawge
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Surely, with the pressure point of my bow hand in the centre of the bow and my drawing hand pulling from the centre of the string my drawing hand is not above my bow hand :-\...I'm confused??
Red Dwarf
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Did not see any deer George. Had a great morning though. Got my food plot cut up, trails cleared to my stands and the tractor home. Ready for the rest of the season now.
Sorry Red Dwarf, I did not read the 3 under part. It is said that 3 under shooters do better with zero, or even tiller. I know when I shoot 3 under on a bow with positive tiller that it's louder and more hand shock than when I use my conventional split finger. And it follows, the farther from center you draw the bow, the more tiller you need, or to more center the less.
I always wondered about that, why a 3 under shooter needed less tiller. Wondered why you always need some rule of thumb positive tiller. Assumed it had to do the nock point but was not real sure how exactly.
A bowyer buddy of mine from Indiana first introduced me to the nock travel phenomenon. He saw it on his tiller tree and asked about it. He had rigged up a model on his CAD or whatever, was an engineer for a GM I think. I had never heard of it, and honestly haven't tried to replicate it.
It wasn't until years later when Dean published the negative tiller stuff that I went back and read about nock travel, spring rates and the purpose of tiller. Then it all made sense to me.
Compound boys are all into it as well, single cams being the rage because it cuts out the nock travel nearly completely as I understand it. Don't play in that game, just saw references to it on the web.
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DCM et al
Thanks for taking the time to try & straighten things out for me but..surely, with a split finger style you are pulling from above the dimensional centre of the string, thereby putting more pressure on the upper limb which should then be stiffer to deal with the extra load (negative tiller..?)
Red Dwarf
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Do you suppose tribal elders sat around having discussions like this? ;D
My head doesn't work like ya'lls, way to technical (your heads, not mine). I make the limbs bend as even as I can, or to match a picture that caught my eye, and if the bows shoots good, Ta-Daa. I am done.
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Nock travel is an interesting concept, DCM. I try to tiller my bows so that the lower nock travels a little less by about a 1/4 inch than the upper nock. This stuff is really complex. Jawge
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George I don't get what you are saying about nock travel. I assume your are talking about string grooves. Somehow I get the impression you didn't read the reference I cited.
"When you shoot an arrow the nock end moves forward, from side to side (Archers Paradox) and up and down. Tiller relates to the up and down movement of the nock. One aim of the bow setup is to get the arrows leaving the bow without any rotation in the vertical plane. If the arrow leaves the bow with say the arrow rotating in the pile upwards direction then drag forces will push the arrow upwards and vice versa if the pile is rotating downwards. If during the shot the string force runs above or below the arrow centre of mass then a torque is generated producing rotation of the arrow shaft in the vertical plane. As the nock of the arrow during the shot moves up and down relative to the arrow centre of mass both the magnitude and the direction of the vertical torque on the arrow will vary."
It's only an interesting concept when you actually make an effort to examine it. Given your background I'm kinda surprised honestly that the pubished science, such as it is, is not interesting to you.
In our culture, I would consider Kooi and Tapley tribal elders, in a sense.
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"When you shoot an arrow the nock end moves forward, from side to side (Archers Paradox) and up and down. Tiller relates to the up and down movement of the nock. One aim of the bow setup is to get the arrows leaving the bow without any rotation in the vertical plane. If the arrow leaves the bow with say the arrow rotating in the pile upwards direction then drag forces will push the arrow upwards and vice versa if the pile is rotating downwards. If during the shot the string force runs above or below the arrow centre of mass then a torque is generated producing rotation of the arrow shaft in the vertical plane. As the nock of the arrow during the shot moves up and down relative to the arrow centre of mass both the magnitude and the direction of the vertical torque on the arrow will vary."
Sorry David but that just doesn't make sense to me. Udjusting where you nock the arrow would cure the problem you describe and not positive or negative tiller
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I have read Taipley but not recently. I bookmarked the url you gave up to for some futured reading. I got confused. I was referring to something else. jawge
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Marc,
I don't see it as a problem, simply an opportunity to understand the underlying mechanics. We have long since solved the problem by trial and error. I see benefit in understanding the mechanics, even if I don't have a specific problem to solve. And that we can tune a bow to shoot well by raising the nock point doesn't necessarily mean we could not have used geometry in combination, by positioning the arrow pass slightly differently, to minimize the need for positive tiller and/or higher nock point.
It's just a topic I've become fascinated by, like low stretch strings, because I questioned the choices I make with an open mind and went looking for the reasons. To be honest, I thought I understood the mechanics and really didn't put too much significance on the reasons until Dean suggested negative tiller. This was so counter to the dogma I knew it could not be so simple as it seemed in his article. If so, why had not negative tiller been employed more universally throughout history. It was in this way that I found what I consider to be the benefit of positioning the arrow pass nearer to center, which ironically re-enforced the theme of Dean's article but for different reasons than he used. An inane topic perhaps, but for me as much a part, perhaps as essential a part of bowyery as any other.
I just don't understand why others aren't similarly inclined. But I can see I should probably back off my online rhetoric a few clicks. People are intimitaded enough by the topic itself, and most already so much set in their ways that something as simple as suggesting alternatives somehow puts them on the defensive. But absent the discussion, not being able to bring others into the specifics, I don't have an opportunity cement my own understanding.
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Great thread - thanks adb for that link to Torges' "update" on his HOB book's tiller method. had my tiller tree actually set up like he now advocates, using a quick-clamp instead of the cradle for pressure. (blind hog finding acorn ;D) hate to add anther variable to the fray, but to those who build the shorter/stronger limbs, do you find a slightly higher knock (so the arrow is pointing slightly downward) at release shoots better, and if so, do you feel it is because of one limb tip is travelling faster or more forcefully at release? I've built three selfbows in the Torges method, and find a tiny bit (on two ) above and even (on one) to be the best, but feel I have yet to "nail" a tiller perfectly.
Thanks,
Postman
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It's funny, but I think that this is a subject that both engineers and artisans can agree....if it's insignificant, it can be ignored. If it's not constant over time, it cannot be easily quantified.
Within primitive archery, there are many shooters who adjust their shooting style to fit their equipment. With wood, the properties of the bow in the beginning of its life are not equal to the properties after long term use.
Interesting subject though. ;) (translation...my head hurts)
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David
I don't see it as a problem either, I just don't agree with it. When I tiller a bow I go by how it feels in my hand as I draw it back. Most of the time a positive tiller produces a clean feel with no pivot in my hand. This can run from 1/8" to 1/4" positive tiller. Occasionally I do have a bow that needs a negative tiller for it to feel right in my hand but that is rare. So far as I know Dean is the only bowyer expounding negative tiller, all other bowyers of note go with a positive tiller. Also a symetrical bow that is tillered with a negative tiller will quite often take more set on the bottom limb.
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Marc,
I can see how you may have gotten the impression I advocate negative tiller from my typo. But I don't. I'm sure exactly what you disagree with. Sorry, it's been a few days. How would you answer these questions?
Why is positive tiller required?
How does it vary with shooting style?
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David
It is required when I make a bow.
As too shooting styles, I can't really say because my style is always the same. I can say this though. The people that I have made bows for come back and tell me that my bows are the finest shooting bows they have ever used. Must mean something :)
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I'm not a bit surprised Marc. What you get away with using natural materials is a wonder to me, and I ain't exactly a raw rookie myself.
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DCM/Mark etc.
At the risk of sounding pushy......Can anyone tell me why positive tiller is required and how the amount might vary with split finger, 3 under etc.?
Red Dwarf
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Red Dwarf...
Go back to the first page and read the initial replies. It's all there.
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Several of my self bows started off with a little positive tiller but over time went slightly negative. If I didn't fix it I would normaly have to move my nocking point on the string a bit. I noticed this more on my shorter bows of around 60" or so, Steve
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adb
I am fairly clear as to what positive tiller is at least!
I really am trying to get my head around this :-\.
What do you mean by the term "A bow with symmetrical limbs"?
Is it a bow where the length of the working limbs is the same or, the centre of the handle is in the dimensional centre of the bow, or the centre of resistance on the grip when drawing the bow is in the dimensional centre of the bow, or.......??
Also, what is meant by the description "a bow tillered at it's geographical centre"?
Red Dwarf
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Red,
Give it time, and more experience, and it gets easier to understand. Not, perhaps, that you don't already...
A bow with symetrical limbs is one which has equal length limbs from the beginning. In other words, when you're laying out the bow's profile, both limbs are equal length from the start, and either limb could be top or bottom. As you tiller the bow, you can let the wood pick which limb will be which. When you tiller this type of bow, you place it on the tiller tree at the bow's geographic center. If you want positive tiller on the top limb, make it bend a bit more, and check tiller at brace as described earlier.
A bow with asymetric limbs begins with the bottom limb shorter than the top right from the start. Or, the top and bottom limbs are chosen from the start, and you have to tiller accordingly. The center of this type of bow is now at the arrow rest, and balances well in the hand.
I hope this helps!
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adb
Thanks for trying to clear things up for me
So the way I am reading things a bow can only be described as "having symmetrical limbs" if the centre of resistance, where most of the pressure is on your bow hand, is in dimensional centre of the bow...correct?
When tillering on the tree, do you pull from the centre of the string or some other predetermined location?
Thanks for bearing with me on this one, I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel!
Red Dwarf
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Red,
Yes, I supposse that would be correct. If I'm tillering a bow with symmetrical limbs, I pull the string from the middle. I'm careful to get the middle of the bow exactly on the center of the tree, and pull the string from the center, otherwise you might pull one limb off and fool your eye. I'm also careful to make sure the bow is sitting square and flat on top of the tiller tree, especially after it's tillered to brace height. I sometimes use a little shim under the riser to level it if I have to.
When tillering a bow with asymmetric limbs, I have the bow on the tree with the arrow pass in the middle of the tiller tree. Everything else the same.
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Here'a pic of a maple selfbow kids bow I made a few months ago. The right limb is the top, and notice how it bends just slightly more than the left, or bottom limb. That's positive tiller. This is a symmetrically limbed bow, tillered from dimensional center. Arrow rest is 1" above center, making the bottom limb 1" longer.
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[b][tt]http:// paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/13568?page=2[/tt]
Is there a rule against posting a link to another primitive archery site? I've included this link to one I frequent, and I'm sure many here will recognize. They don't compete in terms of publishing a magazine and the topic includes pics I think are very informative.
Admin if this is taboo please remove, and please forgive. Or if regular members are offended let me know and I'll remove the post .
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adb, now you really have me confused!
In one sentence you say that the bow has symmetrical limbs, and in the next you say that the bottom limb is 1" longer??????
Two steps forward, one step back!
Red Dwarf
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If the limbs are symmetrical and the handle doesn't bend then how can the bottom limb be longer? Just playing devil's advocate. I make bows the same way, adb. I've heard it put that way before. :) Jawge
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If the limbs are symmetrical and the handle doesn't bend then how can the bottom limb be longer? Just playing devil's advocate Jawge
That is funny George. Ironically this is what Marc was saying about symmetrical "length" limbs and I agree. Regardless of where the arrow pass is, it doesn't change the limb length unless it has a bending handle. It is called a riser and is not part of the limb. Asymmetrical limbs are different in length from fade to limb tip. As long as we are being the devils advocate Ill add a little more confusion. I have never seen a bow with symmetrical limbs. They would have to be the same length and bend in the exact same arc to be truly symmetrical. >:D ;D
Red, ignore the part about 1" longer. What he meant to say but was lost in interpretation was farther from the arrow pass, limb length did not change. With that slight understanding of wording his information is perfectly correct in my oppinion.
Steve, an interesting thought since I have been wondering if adjusting nocking point and fine tuning positive tiller aren't accomplishing the same goal.
All that said I'm with Rich. Even length limbs and symmetrical at full draw. Justin
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Justin, that is true though we strive to get the limbs to bend the same way. Pretty hard to do with character staves. Jawge