Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: tommy6 on October 03, 2008, 10:00:41 am
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I have been working on a hickory backed red oak bow off and on for the past 10 months or so. i will work on it a bit and than put it away for weeks at a time while I do other projects.
I had been putting some finishing touches on it lately including a leather and cyano glue grip that turned out beautiful and osage and deer antler nocks. I have been meticulous with tillering, and the bow was taking absolutely no set in its mildly reflexed limbs. I finally had it pulling 54# at 24" and I sanded her up nice and smooth.
This was the first red oak board bow I have ever made that did not take at least a little set during tillering and the bow has an unusual amount of snappy return for its 70" length.
This looked to be one of my finest bows yet, made even better that it was from a reject oak board I found in a dumpster. Reject to its former owner, but I immediately recognized its beauty and potential.
I began heat tempering the belly last night with my usual method of using a heat gun clamped to my tillering tree with the belly 4" under the nozzle. I heat until golden brown. The aroma of warming oak filled the garage mixed with the tru oil I rub in when the belly is still warm. As I was thinking about how long it has taken me to complete this bow and congradulating myself in my skills as a bowsmith, I heard a "crackle, pop." My heat gun makes noises from time to time so I was not too alarmed. I glanced lovingly over at the bow heating under the gun and noticed that the glue line between the backing and the belly was wider than before. I turned off the heat gun and my heart sank. It started to delaminate! I immediately put it in a wood clamp to squeeze it tight in the desperate hope that it would stick back together. I felt like I was kicked in the you know whats. I went to bed and had night mares of fire.
Why do we bother...
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We bother because to most of us it's a passion ;D. I've come to the conclusion (after several failed glue joints) that once you glue something up, then you don't want to put too much heat to it afterward. My little dissapointments were'nt to dissheartening though - just tip overlays :'(.
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Most glues wont handle that kind of heat...urac being the exception.
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its been said that the hunt is about the hunt, not the kill. in other words, we bother for the sake of bothering. like Cowboy said, its a passion. and all may not be lost. you can always take the backing off the rest of the way and clean up the back, then glue it or another one back on. ive never done this, but i dont see why it wont work.
remember, half the fun in bowmaking, is the problem solving. im sorry for your setback, and i understand your frustration. but ive been there before, and i almost quit all together. but i took a step back, a deep breath, and came to this site for help. after that little break, i came back to it, and the solution was staring me in the face. since then my bows have been getting better and better. just dont give up man!
Phil
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We bother because we love, Tommy. :'( Don't take it so hard, ol boy. Just a learning step. Once you glue something, don't put heat to it. Try again, heat first, let cool, and then glue later. Remember you're working with glue, not pure wood. Now dry your tears and start over. You'll be alright.
~~Papa Matt
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Most of us do it because we cant help it and don't want to. We are hopelessly addicted.
I don't heat a glued bow either. If you are gluing laminations you can glue in the reflex/deflex or whatever you wish. You can also pick woods that are better in compression for the belly and materials that are better in tension for the back. You don't really need to heat treat them like a self bow to get a little more performance. Justin
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Thanks for the encouragement guys. I plan on putting her up on the shelf for awhile. I havent given up on her yet.
It is a learning experience, thats true. In retrospect heres what I learned:
1. Since I glued her up 10 months ago, I probably used TBII, This glue obviously is unable to take much heat. I dont laminate backings with TBII anymore, I use resorcinol or epoxy.
2. For some reason the oak wasnt turning brown as quickly as usual. Therefore I probably heated the limb too deeply to too high of a temp.
3. This bow was glued up in mild perry reflex and that seemed to work great for a lively feel. I wonder if there was too much tension on the glue line due to this which encouraged the delam.
4. You can make a real nice bow out of red oak boards.
Maybe the Knap in in North Carolina will recharge my batteries.
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Do what Burnt Hill Archer said. Carefully heat the belly all over and shivy the backing string off with a knife. Sand all and glue it up again with some reflex.
Dave
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All good advise my friend. Now if you think about it you will realize that it was bound to happen if you heat up glue it gets soft. but thats kind of how we learn. Through tests and trials. When it hurts we don't usually make the same mistake twice. Keep on shaving and it'll get better. Danny
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If you used TB glue you can re-heat it and remove the backing, clean the surfaces and reglue them back in Perry reflex. I have removed 3 hickory backing strips from bows with heat and reused them on other bellies. Pat
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I've had a couple of bows out of osage break. That hurts when you've been involved from cutting and spliting the logs, chasing a grain, laying out the bow and shaping, tillering, applying snake skin's, inlay tips, sealing, etc. Ouch!
Always more wood... ;)
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Yep, I feel your pain. You eventually learn not to get too attached to a bow until after you stop "messing" with it. ;D
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We all make mistakes. I just finished sealing my deck with water sealer. No rain in the forecast but it looked like it. Cloudy as a son. I should have expected it. Well started feeling a few drops of rain so I covered the deck with drop clots. Then I started cleaning the garage and dropped a quart of primer that I just bought all over the garage. My wife said, "I thought that project was only going to take you a couple of hours. 3-4 hours later.... ..it happens. :) Jawge
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Yes we do it 'cos we love it. But I know that feeling. Was sinewing backing an Ipe bow. Carefully prepared the back, prepared all-ll that sinew, bashing it, seperating it, grouped it into about twenty fairly even shanks and put them between pages of one of the wife's thick rubbish magazines to keep the seperate. Got the rawhide glue a-melting, turned to get the magazine BUT my two boxer dogs had sniffed it out and eaten all the sinew, several pages as well. And I thought---why do i bother?
Just had to order more sinew and start again.
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Call it passion, say it's because we love it. I vote crazy ;D.
I've been working like mad on a new red oak board bow for this Saturday. I let it sit braced for a day, eased it to full draw, really worked on it. It was a beauty and it drew a staunch 84#, slinging arrows like a demon. And today it exploded on me (the grain ran off the inside of the fades, and with the heavy weight, the circular tiller just gave up there). I carefully took the new trign I made off and grabbed the Osage ELB I made from the stave Pat B so graciously sent me. All the while thinking... "I could have done that handle better anyway."
And thinking about the hickory and hornbeam staves drying in the back of the truck :D.
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Kegan,
not trying to hijack the thread but could you repost your Osage ELB or show me where you posted it. That sounds interesting. I thought osage was too dense for a proper ELB?
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Sidewinder- It's under the title "FireStick", and was on last months BOM I believe, maybe the month before. I don't have a light wood ELB to compare it to, but it definately shoots, and the tips are pretty heavy. I used the dimensions from Pope's ELB in Hunting with the Bow and Arrow, only I went with 1/2" wide tips. Osage makes a great ELB, and with that desity, makes it more accurate, at least that's how it feels. At first I thought the bow was a slug, and should have been used for a short flatbow, but a subsequent hickory test showed that it wasn't the wood, but the design, that kept it just short of "perfect" as far as a hunting bow goes. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for another ELB, and would probabaly make it longer. Art Young used Osage for his ELB's too.
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Hmmmm. My wheels are turning. Danny
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At first I thought the bow was a slug, and should have been used for a short flatbow, but a subsequent hickory test showed that it wasn't the wood, but the design, that kept it just short of "perfect" as far as a hunting bow goes.
Whoops, I forgot to clarify. I left the bow a little wider than it needed to be (1 1/4" at the handle and 1/2" wide at the tips). Osage is very strong, and could be narrower than that, helping with the arrow pass and speed.
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Update delamination: After leaving the board aside for several days, I picked it up for a closer look. The delam appeared to be not as bad as it could be. I flexed the limb over my knee and there was no worsening of the delam gap. I put it in a vise flexed it slightly with a light behind it and could see no light coming through the crack.
I took some thin super glue and with the bow laying on its side filled the crack, let it dry, filled the other side, let it dry etc. the glue never went from one side to the other through the delam. I repeated this about 4 times for each side till the delam would accept no mor glue. I set the bow aside for 2 days to "cure" (Iknow super glue takes a few minutes to cure).
i flexed the limb over my knee a few times, floor flexed itand finally put a long tillering string on it and exercized the limbs many times.
Other than the delamed limb now having a little set all looked well. I low braced it till the string was just barely taking all the limb tension put her on the tillering tree and pulled her to 18 inches. she looked pretty good and symetrical.
Took her out to shoot her and man what a spunky bow! Cast was good with some mild handshock. I only drew her to about 24" but she was zipping them along. The delaminated area held fine.
I was so happy! I saved my bow I worked so hard on! She was very consistant with shot placement. I shot maybe 20 arrows with her.
You know what happened next? Pulled her back, heard a tick, let her down. I expected the delam to be coming apart. Nope it looked good. I searched every square inch of that limb and found nothing. Looking at the other limb showed a small crack on the backing right by a little knot. I carefully took the string off and put her away...
This bow is turning into one heck of a frustrating you know wha...but also an important teacher.
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I have been working on this bow a little bit at a time. I have tried to mend the crack in one of the limbs several times, but it eventually cracks thru the repair when stressed. I have tried the following in general order:
1. CA glue
2. More CA glue
3. epoxy
4 epoxy with modern sinew (Not artificial sinew)
5. More epoxy and modern sinew and CA glue
6. Epoxy and microballons, this has yet to be stressed.
I havent tried natural sinew yet, this may be next. The tiller is starting to change a bit at the crack, with a bit of a mild hinge.
Other than that the bow shoots great, pulls 53# at 26 inches and the crack does not appear any wider or deeper after about 50 arrows thru it.
Any ideas of how to proceed from here?
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Modern sinew? huh....... ??? what the heck is that? I have never heard of it.
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Hmmmm...yeah I wonder too...might be code for fiberg!@$$...?
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Yar, maybe so Jack, maybe so. Think I may have saw a "modern sinew" product somewhere and even then i went HUH? ???
Steve
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Yup you got me, strands of fibreglass. I feel dirty...
Well, I stressed the epoxy and microballoon patch and yup it cracked. wierd.
Time to start pounding sinew I reckon.
The other option is to cut out the piece of back that is cracking and glue in another piece of hickory, but frankly this scares the
S&!+ out of me.
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Not trying to be a smart a##@ but I would think it is about time to start a new bow,shoot that one till it blows and start another.There is only so much a man can do to save one.Take a deep breath
and get another piece of wood. :) :)
Pappy
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I hear ya Pappy! That would be the sane thing to do. I am working on 2 other bows right now, an Ash (at least I think its ash) selfbow and a bamboo backed ipe. Oh yeah than there is the osage board that Im whittling down to one ring to make a take down bow. And than there is that twisted walnut stave that is just about dry enough to startmaking a character bow. Something keeps drawing me back to this red oak board bow. I know it would be the easy thing to do to just give up, but as my wife will attest I never do things the easy way. I think we will all agree that alot of the satisfaction in using traditional equipment is making your own gear. I definately spend more time making bows than shooting them. Its a learning experience.
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ill get you a nice starter stave, just pm me...
jamie
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Oh and to get the record straight, I would never buy anything called modern sinew, O:) I just have alot of CENSORED around from making surfboards (wood ones at that). ;D