Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: cowboy on February 08, 2009, 12:29:52 pm
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I looked up the point type and their were no pictures of rogue river but reffered back to the Gunther's apparently the same thing. They were made into the Historic phase (1000 to 200 BP). Generally made from obsidian in the Northwest.
Location: Great Basin westward.
Description: A small to medium size, thin, broad, triangular arrow point with long barbs that extend to and beyond the base. The blade sides are straight to concave and the stem is parallel sided to slightly contracting or expanding. These points exhibit high quality flaking. Other local names used for this type are "Camas Valley," "Mad River," "Molalla," Rogue River," and "Shasta."
Here's my attempt :).
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Cool, that's a nice'un, Paul. I'll try to dig out some obsidian or dacite and give it a go.
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Woops! I'll try again! ;)
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Thanks Steve. That's a peice of obs I got from DTiller and if I'd tried to make that stem any longer it would have more closely resembled Jesse's point there ;D. Looks like that one was going lovely for awhile Jesse - dontcha just hate when that happens :'( :).
You were right fletcha, looking back in the book the majority of them were made of Jasper's and Agate's. Happy knappin folks ;).
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Wow, ya'll took the word "challenge" seriously! Here's two that I made, along with another sweep-wing barbed point out of cooked Texas chert on the right. The other two are made of jasper, just like the originals. The large circle is a penny for size comparison.
Making these type points with long barbs is not easy. One wrong move and your barb is broken. My advice for those who haven't made these type of points: do your notching early, while the point is still a bit bigger and beefy, then narrow your sides in carefully to the desired shape. If you try to make those notches as the last step, you're much more likely to break the barbs off.
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those are nice Billy.
Yea you can see i did my notches early.. i had not yet made the sides convex and it did not have a point on it yet.
What happend with mine was i poped of to large of a flake notching it and it left a deeper flake scare running across the base of the barb.. and i knew if i flipped it and tuck another flake it would probably snap. but if you ant taken chances you ant making purdy ones.
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Nice points fellas,a challange indeed!Just got back from the Sopchoppy knapp-in,the challange there was a Clovis using Southeast Material.Then I come back and see we're trying to knapp this style,talk about switching gears!Man whats next mosquito effigys?
Bone pile
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Great looking points guys :)
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Yall are quite talented! Mighty fine! ;)
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Wow! billy, those are extra nice. Have you made these before?
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HEy Cowboy,
I've never made Gunther barbed points before, but I have made a few sweep-wing Columbia River type points, mostly out of obsidian (though they were usually made out of gem-quality agate by the natives). So I've got a little experience in making those little points with long barbs. I've always liked those really exquisite little arrow points that are very finely made. Below is another pic of some of the little barbed obsidian points I was talking about. I had a few others that had even longer barbs than these, but I sold them at some Arts/Craft shows last summer. This shows what you can do with the right support and technique. The little point on the left has the most delicate barbs I've made so far. Can't believe I didn't break them off....but I didn't!
Another trick for those barbs: Always narrow the very tip of the barb first, leaving it much wider closer to the notch. That way you have more stone (and more strength) up toward the base of the barb. I narrow the very tip first, then carefully move upward toward the notch. Hope that helps.
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Wow GUYS! This is a fun thread to watch. A lot of good stuff being posted!
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ok dose this one count?
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Great looking points, billy, those are killer. Jesse-yep, I'd say that one definitely counts-Wow! Is that cherry quartz? I made one just like your first one yesterday. :)
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Man billy - you must have the dentist tools out to make them little puppies, them are tiny :). That's a beauty as well Jesse and of course it counts ;D. I'm gonna have to get out there and make some more flakes..
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thank ya :D
Yep its rose quarts.
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I guess i will have to get out my knapping tools ... you gus are giving me the fever... Hawk
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I'll stay our of this one since I'm SOOO Good at making them! ::)
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LOL Tiller!.
I've never made one before.
i tuck Billy's advice and trimmed my barbs as a dug out the notch.. that seemed to be the trick, thanks billy.
also you really got to pay attention to how you support it, to much presher on the tip or the barbs will snap it.
for example i broke the other barb off that 1st try with my fingers.. i pinched it and snapped it right off. dont take much.
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Boy these are hard. I have a tough time getting these symmetrical. I was up late tonight making these two. I did have one failure. The shorter wide one is out of Black Obsidian from Riley,OR. The longer one is out of Glass Buttes Obsidian. Would these qualify as Gunther points?
Allen - Happy Knapper
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Yup, them look great Allen and they sure look like Gunther's to me :). I don't know how you guys make em so small - I'm gonna have to break out the readin glasses and try it again ::).
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HEy leapingbare,
glad my advice helped ya. It's real easy to break those barbs off, so when I get close to my final shape, I always pressure flake them on a flat surface...never in my hand. The shape of your hand seems perfect for breaking off the barbs and points of small arrowheads since it isn't flat. That has helped, although I still break barbs and tips off sometimes. It just takes practice to learn what you can get away with and what you can't.
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Also, hold the barb on the opposite edge between thumb and forefinger and push chips off in the direction you are holding the barb.
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WOW.you guys have done some sweet chipping on points from my home area (rogue valley)......hey paul,i have a question..in your photo you show your gunther point what the book in the back ground...looks like it has a butt load of points in it.....thanks john
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That's the Overstreet's Arrowhead Identification guide. It's a great book. I've got the 7th edition, but I think it's up to the 9th or 10th printing now. It's great for helping ID points from all over the country.
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I've got it too! Man there are some purty points in there and some real junkie looking ones to. But, he identifies them all and you get a seance that the old timers either made artwork out of them for arts sake or just wiped something out with a sharp edge to hunt with and to heck with the artsy partsy stuff and made meat! :D
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Wow nice points ! I got to get out as soon as it stops snowing for a minute and do some knappin,I am still workin on points I started back in Nov. When I do I will attempt some of those winged beauties.Those are the points I would see down at Umitilla,Ore where the umitilla runs into the columbia river.Usually a quarter would cover them.They were washing out of the banks there so the corps of engineers went in and rip rapped the banks.(They are useful like that). Frank
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Well here's my attempt at the challange.They are alittle big I guess but I'd have to get better glasses to go much smaller.Maybe I'll try smaller-later
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk33/Bonepile/3_little.jpg)
Roger
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Wow! Roger - nice work. Looks like everybody's stepping up to the challenge here. Too bad about that one ear, would have been a beauty - super glue anyone ::) ;D?
Yep John, it is the Overstreet price and ID guide - can be found online. You'll notice in there (generally) that all the "junky" points were made later into the historic periods. Most the really old style's show a lot more care and dedication to perfection.
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I made this one last night, took about 45 minutes of concentration. Being from blue glass I guess it would fit into the historic phase of contact. I don't really like the inconsistent flake scars and serrations, but it is what it is. I wish I had some nice agate like some of you have been posting, you all are doing some really nice work on yours.
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I love those serrated points for hunting Turkeys... they really rip through meat and bone.. Hawk a/ho
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Flecha,
I don't see what you're seeing cause that gunther barbed is AWESOME!! I like the serrations dude, I think they make that point look wicked! You did a damn good job, especially being made out of glass. My hat's off to you my friend, that's some very fine chipping.
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im a little rusty but heres one
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/steeprock058.jpg)
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looks good Jamie :)
Welcome to the Gunther club.
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That looks great Flecha! I don't know how any of the originals survived to be found by us modern people. If they hunted with em and shot em once seems like the ears would have been broken off.
Good one Jamie - don't look like your rusty to me but that mahogany has a rusty kinda look to it ;D.
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They closely resemble a Tx Perdiz, which are fairly commonly found even with the ears intact.
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I often wonder about how they survived as well. I wonder if being made from jasper and agate enabled them to be "hardier" than glass and obsidian? My glass and obsidian ones last about one shot... you get to make a lot of them that way! ;D
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tried again and this one i like. i just lose patience when im trying to make something im not gonna use. was gonna sweep the edges in but like i said lost patience
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/001.jpg)
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Ain't nothin wrong with that one Jamie - i'd like it too. What kind of stone, kinda resembles some of the cortex's around here.
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i think it was keokuk. i like the cortex from the texas rock. right between the chert and the limestone is some good stuff.
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Looks good jamie ifin yer not gonna use it I have a brand new display case it would look good in ;D
Ya need my address ;)
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Very nice points Jamie... look like some real meat makers to me. Hawk
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This is a picture of some of the variety of points from the desert lake region of Southern Oregon. Not the best picture but you can see how tiny some of them are. There are some petrified camel's teeth that date back 10,000 years." Watcher
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Wow what a collection brother.... thanks for sharing ..Hawk
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now i stare at even the tiny flakes and say sure i can get a point out of that. :)
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That's what I was refering to Joe. Covered by a dime. Never seen one but am about to build one ::) :).
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I took a stab at this challenge seeing as I made a bunch of big rocks into little rocks
with nothing to show for it :'( Had some small chips so gave er a shot took me 4 tries to
get this one. All I can say is its not too bad for a half blind Yooper :D
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Dana, that's real nice. Half blind eay?
Mike
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Well Dana, I'd have to say your infected by the bug for sure ;D. That's a pretty decent point for being so small - good work.
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great job Dana... looks like a killer to me.. Hawk
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Well here's mine. Mounted and ready to hunt. :)
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Nice Eddie! I LIKE IT!!!
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thanks, David
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very nice, looks like a meat maker for sure.. Hawk
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I was trying this last week. A lot of bad timing. ;D
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reminds me of the simmons land shark. very cool
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Nice one eddie :)
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Durn Eddie - I'd hate to be on the recieving end of that one. Nice point!!
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Thankyou.
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Good looking point Eddie! :)
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Here are some Rogue River/ Gunthers I hafted up.
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Those shafts look a might large at the tip. Try turning them down to points? I think they often designed these points sot that when shot they would come off the shafts and stick in target and stay there.
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Shoot Cowboy, making em small is easy. I start out with a nice blank, and start to make a nice sized point, and then end up with a dime sized point! I didn't know I was supposed to. ;) I was trying to make a decent sized point. ;D ;D
Wayne
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Yes, the shafts maybe a little thick, but they shoot well.
As to how they were hafted, I don't really know; I wasn't there (no matter how much I may wish) ;D. In a personal communication with Steve Allely, he showed me some pictures of original arrows with this style of point hafted and they had sinew wraps around the cutting margin in the same fashion I've done with these. I am under the impression that they were often used with a composite arrow (main shaft and foreshaft) so maybe that is where the idea of them being designed to stay in the animal came from ???
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Nice points flecha :)
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Yep, you guys are making small look too easy ;). Everybody's really steppin up to the plate this month - nice work all! And those are some very nice arra's flecha!
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I agree, those are some killer arrows... would hate to be on the pointed end of one of those :o Hawk
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Very nice looking points Fletcha. The one I hafted is on a foreshaft for a cane arrow. It has been beveled the entire length so it fits tight but will come out after it is in meat, if it doesn't go all the way through.
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I like this one more than my one I put up out of blue glass. This one is out of obsidian from Glass Buttes, Oregon (mile post 77 along hwy 20 between Burns and Bend). I hope that doesn't disqualify my point because most of the obsidian used in SouthWest Oregon came up from Northern Cal. The gunther points at the Gold Hill site that were obsidian were made from obsidian from the Medicine Lake flow. Anyway, I really like the size, material, proportions and overall quality of this point. I love the long, delicate, thin, lacelike barbs and needle like tip. This one took longer than most to make...about 90 minutes.
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That's a dandy flecha! Source of material or material used for that matter should'nt be much of a consideration right now. We're mostly just trying to see if we can even make the point I think :). Maybe later we'll narrow it down proper this and that. This is all about fun and what makes ya happy ;).
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that point is great brother, I love those glass points.. Hawk
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That's a beauty! And it's not easy to make them out of something as brittle as obsidian. GREAT job!
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Nice point ya got there.Ok the end of the month is upon us whats the March Maddness point going to be? I'm in knife mode right now but I'm ready to switch gears.I came home with a couple buckets of rock from Dade knapp-in that are just screamin' for my blood.
Bone pile
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lets do Hand ground Gezan ripple flaked Egyptian blades for March!! ;D
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Two more days for Gunther's. That sounds challenging Jesse - you do one and show us what thier sposed to look like ;D.
I'm up for most anything. Everyone should just throw a style in the hat and we'll go with the majority, aye?
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Kirk Serrated
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I'd was joking about the Egyptian blades :)
But i think a knife blade of some type would be cool fore March.
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How about those perty little egyptian arrow points? Dems really cool!!!!
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How about something with a "keyhole" or "expanding" notch. Those are hard to get the notch to expand without breaking.
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Nah! Just takes a little practice at inderect pressure flaking. See these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FlintknapperJimmy
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well I missed out on 2 of these now. Too busy repairing that bow and other stuff.
Having fun watching tho.
Nice looking points everyone.
later
n2
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Nah! Just takes a little practice at inderect pressure flaking. See these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FlintknapperJimmy
What is "Indirect pressure flaking"?
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Fletch did you watch the videos yet?
If not its where you come at it in the opposite dirrection placing. Its really hard to explain but if you watch the last video there it will show it.
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Whatever we do, let's do something a little easier on the next knapping challenge....thos damn Gunthers about got me evicted from my apartment! Hahaha...
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They almost got you evicted! There is a story in that... Do Tell!!!
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Just in time....Well, here is my last attempt. After breaking about three I will go with this hybrid creature.
What's on for March?
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I didn't even try this....I make enough gravel the way it is. Hopeing for something bigger next month.:)
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Looks good Jonathan - you get better with every point!
OK: so far we've got some kind of blade, Kirk serrated, and some kind of egyptian point's for March. Any other's?
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I haven't even had a chance to try the Gunthers much. Seems like every day I've had some time it's been pouring rain or down to 0. The one I tried looked good until I busted the barb off one side. :) Kirk Serrated, expanded notch Ishis, blade, whatever sounds good to me for the next one. I'll pass on the Egyptian Gerzian knives for now. :)
PS-Jonathan, that's a good looking point, you're getting pretty durn good at this.
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lets do Turkey Tails
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No thanks! I like Turkey breasts meat better. Not much meat on the tails! ;D
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So Cowboy, what's it gonna be? I'm in the knappin mood today.
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I like Eddie's Kirk serrated idea, but I'm up for anything.
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Kirk sounds good to me,need something that all skill levels can take a stab at.
Bone pile
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Whats a kirk look like?
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Looks like the majority has chosen Kirk - lets do it :). I'll try to get a picture up this evening David. I'll start the March thread later on. That's a purty turkey tail Jesse - perhaps April?
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I had a little time yesterday afternoon and took the opportunity to sit in the warm sun and managed to get a fairly large preform knocked out. I left it at that so as to hopefully have something for March's point. Standing by for a picture.
Mike
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Paul , i did not make that one.. just found a pic of a turkey tail online. for an example.
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Anyone who shot these break barbs when they did?
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Anyone who shot these break barbs when they did?
Yes. One or two shot life expectancy.
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Hey, a blast from the past. Very fitting thread for the month don't you think?
Tracy
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Hey, a blast from the past.
Yea, i spend my spare time eating oreos and scowering these archives haha
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About one inch long.
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I read almost this entire thread before I realized it was 4 years old! Went out to the garage this morning and turned this little thing out.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/651F4486-38ED-4665-BDEB-3C319B6358AB-5986-000008CF2C99309D_zps6cde6eaf.jpg)
And it confirmed something for... I hate micro points!
Scott