Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Josh on April 14, 2009, 10:25:14 am
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yay or nay? ??? Lol I saw a buzzard feasting on the side of the road this morning and was just wondering if anyone has ever used their primaries as fletchings.
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Great traditional fletching material, judging from all the old arrows that were fletched with them. Also VERY VERY illegal. All raptors are protected, and you can't legally posses their feathers.
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wow didn't know that. Even if they molt you can't pick up the feathers and use them that way?
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Nope. Federal offense.
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Leave em alone off bird or a road kill like Hillbilly said. Federal offense and ifn they find ya with some ya will wish the IRS er organized crime is after ya ! :o ;D.......bob
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me i'm always picking up road kill , got a nice forest buzard and owl the other day ..... but then again this is africa .... no feds around here ... ::)
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If I want to simulate buzzard feathers on my NA style arrows, I use domestic goose primaries. Not a perfect match but very close...and perfectly legal. ;D
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If I want to simulate buzzard feathers on my NA style arrows, I use domestic goose primaries. Not a perfect match but very close...and perfectly legal. ;D
that's a good idea.
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i very rarely speak out against mans laws, but this one that i have to protest for sure. i can seeing not being allowed to kill the birds, they are very important in the ecosystem and reproduce slower than your average birds, but who is the government to arrest you for possessing one of gods creations especially on your own property. its blatent abuse of power. thats like telling me i am not allowed pick up a dead stick.....its just retarded. they can cut down the redwoods and strip mine but i cannot pick up a hawk's feather.....incredible
ok sorry for the outburst, but this is one subject that really makes me sit back and say who the f$%^&* do these people think they are
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I recently found a dead buzzard aside the road. sneaky I pulled the feathers out, went home, and fletched a war arrow with it. The fletching looked good, until I loosed my first shot. then my second, and third... and the fletching was totally ruined. It's beautyfull, but way to weak.
I wouldn't advice it for bound-on fletches, maybe just glued on, but you'd better be carefull and use low fletches to keep them as strong as possible.
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i very rarely speak out against mans laws, but this one that i have to protest for sure. i can seeing not being allowed to kill the birds, they are very important in the ecosystem and reproduce slower than your average birds, but who is the government to arrest you for possessing one of gods creations especially on your own property. its blatent abuse of power. thats like telling me i am not allowed pick up a dead stick.....its just retarded. they can cut down the redwoods and strip mine but i cannot pick up a hawk's feather.....incredible
ok sorry for the outburst, but this is one subject that really makes me sit back and say who the f$%^&* do these people think they are
well said.
I kinda see why they have to outlaw the possession of the feathers though. Anybody can kill them and then later claim they just "found" the feathers.
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Illegal. Ignorance is no excuse from the officer's standpoint. Make sure that you know exactly what you are using to fletch with or it could be costly and even revoke your privellege to fish and hunt for life, worst case scenario.
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Ryan, didn't say I agreed with it, just saying how it is. Turkey vulture primaries are actually stiffer than turkey or goose primaries, and bigger, too. I found one a while back and looked it over good. They look like they would work really well if they were legal, but they're not, so I 'm not going to take any chances.
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Leave em alone off bird or a road kill like Hillbilly said. Federal offense and ifn they find ya with some ya will wish the IRS er organized crime is after ya ! :o ;D.......bob
The federal government IS organized crime!
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i very rarely speak out against mans laws, but this one that i have to protest for sure. i can seeing not being allowed to kill the birds, they are very important in the ecosystem and reproduce slower than your average birds, but who is the government to arrest you for possessing one of gods creations especially on your own property. its blatent abuse of power. thats like telling me i am not allowed pick up a dead stick.....its just retarded. they can cut down the redwoods and strip mine but i cannot pick up a hawk's feather.....incredible
ok sorry for the outburst, but this is one subject that really makes me sit back and say who the f$%^&* do these people think they are
Well, there are no trully 100% free societies in the world. We all put restrictions on what can and can not be done. If you want to change the law you just need to get enough people together that agree with your thinking and it can be changed in a democratic society. But good luck if you do decide to work at changing it in the US as it will take time and lots of money or lots of influence!
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Leave em alone off bird or a road kill like Hillbilly said. Federal offense and ifn they find ya with some ya will wish the IRS er organized crime is after ya ! :o ;D.......bob
The federal government IS organized crime! Well then ya can always move to another country ifn ya want.
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I was taught that an illegal was a sick bird ;D ;) good advise to leave the feathers where they lay.. but there is no law about sticking them in trees and saying a prayer for the winged ones who lost them.. YET,,, good mojo anyway...Hawk
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The law is the law and there is nothing we can really do to change it, well at least no easy way.
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The only problem with your thinking, Ryan is the type of person that will shoot an Eagle, Owl, or buzzard and then tell the officer it was road kill. That's like my buddy a few weeks ago trieing to tell me the turkey hen he shot was gobbling, They don't gobble when they are dead. ??? :D
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It's definitely frustrating and makes no sense when you have a good set of morals and ethics, as is the norm for folks here that put the effort into making things from scratch. Laws are for those that lack these qualities. I'd love to use these feathers since I have access to a roosting area that is full of primaries during molt, but I have to set a good example for my kids following me in my footsteps. Sorry to ramble.
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Leave em alone off bird or a road kill like Hillbilly said. Federal offense and ifn they find ya with some ya will wish the IRS er organized crime is after ya ! :o ;D.......bob
The federal government IS organized crime! Well then ya can always move to another country ifn ya want.
Thanks for the heads up. ::)
You work for the federal government or something? ;D
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I definitely gotta agree with twisted limbs. I understand that raptors are federally protected....but the number of people who actually shoot hawks is nothing compared to the number of birds killed on our highways by cars and trucks. Everytime I drive down the road I see them...owls and hawks mostly. Watch the roadsides next time you're driving down the highway... you'll see carnage EVERYWHERE. America's highways are a killing field for tens of thousands of wild animals. If the govt really wanted to protect raptors, they would protect them from the most obvious threat: vehicles that kill thousands each month on America's highways. Wait a second....the govt CAN'T control that! So instead, they pass idiotic laws to further control the people of this country instead of focusing on the real problems. It's nothing new, and doesn't surprise me at all. Don't get me started on the corrupt criminals that infect our govt agencies, courtrooms, and legislatures....
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What kills me are the laws that allow some game and fish officer who is in his twenties to give my wife a hard time concerning her Red tailed hawks while hunting.. she is a federally licensed falconer and raptor rehabilitator.. yet a local game warden who doesn't even know the difference between a red tail and a gos hawk can harass her and another rehab lady who has been rehabbing and releasing raptors for over twenty years... and he even had several birds euthanized who were well on the way to being released because of a state law governing the amount of rehab permits available at the time.. a paperwork delay caused the death of several birds of prey and the warden was not held liable after the fact.... when it was decided that there was no fault in the rehab facility... yet my brother who is Lakota, has to go through a serious run around with his Eagle feathers every time he flies somewhere and has the added discrace of having to allow some scumbag security official to handle his sacred medicine :'( who decides these things? Hawk
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There is a guy that goes to Pow Wows and Rendevouse's down here that takes white turkey feathers and airbrushes them and you cannot tell the difference unless you look real close.
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The only problem with your thinking, Ryan is the type of person that will shoot an Eagle, Owl, or buzzard and then tell the officer it was road kill. That's like my buddy a few weeks ago trieing to tell me the turkey hen he shot was gobbling, They don't gobble when they are dead. ??? :D
maybe he meant she was strutting,ive seen that
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Hawk,
the decisions being made are the same type of people who would be in jail if they weren't working for the govt. The only reason why people go to work for the govt is because they're too stupid or lazy to get a job in the private sector. Just go to the DMV if you wanna see "cream of the crop" govt. employees. Requirement: half a brain and absolutely no ambition. If you have either, or both, you're disqualified for any govt position!
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It is illegal to use or possess any part of a raptor unless you have special permits. If you want to take the chance of getting caught with contraband feathers and are ready to accept the consequences, that is your choice to make. For me, there are too many other sources of feathers to even think about using raptor feathers for fletchings.
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I'll be buried with the feathers I've FOUND they can dig me up and take me to jail but till then none will see them.Is there a list of the off limits feathers ? we have flamingos and roset spoonbills, storks,pelicans ,herons etc.....non are raptors.
Bonepile
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Yeah, I would like to see a list of federally protected birds. Not just for me but for everyone else that also is new to fletching their own arrows as well. Heck it might save someone from going to jail because as someone said before in this post (I am too lazy to scroll back and see exactly who it was) the game warden isn't gonna let ignorance be an excuse. Just a thought to help out other newbies like me. :)
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Billy you got a valid point with roadkills. Why can't a person who finds one get a roadkill permit like they handout for deer? The interstates are littered with owls and various hawk species that go to waste.
Hawkbow, sounds like your game warden is like a growing number of officers and just would rather have so many laws that don't allow activities to make enforcement that much easier on them from day to day. Real shame about your friend that gets harassed for his heritage!
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An interesting point to make on this subject also is- what most people don't realize, a good number of the hawks and owls that you find dead along the highway or county roads were not killed by automobile. Sitting on a powerline makes them a real nice still target for rifles and there they lay dead on the side of the road killed by a bullet. A lot of less-enlightened hunters see these birds as nothing more than competition for squirrel and rabbit and believe they've got to go. I have known of people doing this.
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I don't want to come down on all game wardens.. I have friends who are top notch outdoorsmen and horsemen who work for the game and fish.. these individuals are better hunters and honorable people than most hunters who I share the wilds with.. that being said the warden from Cody who had the birds killed is a real piece of crap.. with little regard for the people or animals he comes into cantact with..the worst part is their policy of burning the birds, when they could donate them to any of the local tribes in the area who would use them in an honorable way.. Hawk
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Deftones, the list of protected species that you're not supposed to possess parts of is basically any bird that isn't a legal gamebird. That pretty much gets everything big enough to fletch with except turkey, goose, duck, pheasant, grouse, and crow.
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thanks hillbilly.
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In the Netherlands where I live is a way to legally posess raptor feathers/products when they died of natural causes or roadkill. This is the thing I've found out (it may work similar in the USA, I don't know):
- If you find a dead raptor such as a buzzard, you cannot touch it, unless:
- you bring it to the police. You are not allowed to ditch the bird in the forest or in the garbage bin. It is only legal to touch and transport the bird when you bring it to the police.
- You report the dead bird to the police, and tell them you need them to fill in a special form required to own a dead raptor. This form is also required for a taxidermist to stuff the bird. Without this form, a taxidermist will not stuff the bird.
- The police should write on the form that the bird is roadkill or died of natural cuases. In other words: the police should figure out it does not have gunshot wounds.
- This is all free of charge, if I'm not mistaken. It takes little time for you.
- The police will just sent you home, with the form and the dead bird. The form should be saved as a proof.
- You may use the form to have the bird stuffed, but now you can also legally strip the bird of its flesh/feathers/beak etc.
I didn't come up with this law...just the way thing work over here.
I imagine it works the same if you would legally like to posess a single buzzard feather you accidentally found in the forest.
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I think it is real sad that we are attacking the game officers. Their hands are tied as to how to deal with these issues. If the laws require paperwork and jumping through hoops that is what the warden should enforce. Working in law enforcement is no cake walk. Everybody is willing to criticise and no you don't agree with some of the laws, but it is you job to enforce the laws. The best part is when you get to protect the idiots that abuse you for doing your job. :(
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Somewhat related to this issue:
I wanted to collect some tendon from road kill deer - I do not currently have a good source otherwise. After some online investigation, I learned that collection of roadkill (or other waste carcasses) is not legal without a permit....and can lead to huge fines and legal troubles. I was told by the local Fish & Wildlife office that I could phone my request in, they would issue me a permit number over the phone that I could quote to any officer that questioned me - sounds great, but the catch is that I have to take possession of the entire carcass, then dispose of the remains appropriately. If I haul it home, harvest the tendons and then dump it out in the bush to rot peacefully, it's considered "abandonment and waste" which is a wildlife crime, even though it was roadkill which will get hauled to the dump anyway.
This isn't intended as a hijack, but rather to show that rules are rules....unfortunately.
D
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I think in most states you can posses wild bird feathers from birds that are considered pests or an invasive species. Here in Texas, I can shoot and keep as many rock doves, domestic doves that have escaped (like ringneck doves), European starlings, and house sparrows as I want. Great-tailed grackle feathers are OK too but they are protected if not considered a pest in the area.
The pigeon/dove feathers are great for kids arrows. The other feathers can be used for crafts.
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I don't know about Texas, but you better not shoot a dove out of season in Florida. They are covered under the Migratory Game act, and is a Federal violation if a fed Game Officer catches you, not counting your State Officer. Bonepile, All the birds you mentioned have been protected since the 20's. Not sure about the Flamingo, though. It is not native to Florida, they were brought in to Hialeah Horse track in Miami from Cuba.
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Eddie, we take dove hunting pretty seriously in Texas. If it's not a rock dove (common pigeon) or domestic variety, the fines for shooting a game dove out of season are hefty.
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We also have several invasive species of dove that are not regulated.
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You can get a list of federally protected birds by calling or writing the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. It may be four or five papes ong and include over three hundred birds. Some birds that are not game birds are not protected. All migratory birds, all raptors or birds of prey are protected. No one mentioned that if you are registered with BIA as a Native American that you can indeed possess eagle, owl, hawk, magpie and other feathers. The feather bank used to be in Pocatello, Idaho but may be in Denver, Colorado now. The artifically painted white turkey feathers can scratch and get dull from abrasion. I paid over $3.00 per feather to replicate a Cheyenne war leadere lance and was disappointed when the brightness of the paint started to fade from abrasion. I would encourage Native American bowyer=fletchers to fletch up traditional arrows in birds of prey and tell us how they shoot and how they stand up to wear and tear and how loud or soft they sound. As too Diligence needing sinew, Mike Foltmer of Evans, Colorado has an ad in Primitive Archer and Wilderness Way magazines and has been selling deer and elk leg and back sinew for over ten years. It is legal in Colorado to pick up road kill if you call the Colorado Division of Wildlife within 48 hours to get a free permit. This only applies to residents of Colorado. Sheep and cow intestines work likke sinew for wrapping quills on your fletch and tennis raquet strings are not made of cat gut but cow guts.
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Well this was informative and dissappointing at the same time. It truley is a tragedy for the Natives of this country to be hasseled over their feathers... Rayan is spot on
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Justin, as to the wardens, most I have met are very professional, and courteous. But occasionally, you will run into a fecal ball.
The guy who had the birds killed, was one such. He could have waited to check on the records, and then made his confiscation, or just let things be, if the paper work was correct. But he has a badge, and a gun, and the feeling of power, with the Government backing him, right or wrong. It is a shame he is so ignorant, and in fact just plain mean. He definitely has some issues. ;) As for Native Americans being harassed by airport officials, refer back to the section on DMV personnel. ;D It is sort of like the Draft during the sixties...... I had a Friend from South Carolina, who was legally blind. His glasses were litterally like the bottoms of coke bottles. But he fit for combat. Are alive, and moving, you are fit for combat. ;)
Wayne
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Not me, I was 4-F during Vietnam. Too many front row seats at Allman Brother Concerts. They told me I wouldn't be able to hear in-coming rounds ::), didn't really want to hear them.
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Oh yeah you do Eddie, it's the one's you don't hear that get you! ;D
Wayne
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Hawk,
the decisions being made are the same type of people who would be in jail if they weren't working for the govt. The only reason why people go to work for the govt is because they're too stupid or lazy to get a job in the private sector. Just go to the DMV if you wanna see "cream of the crop" govt. employees. Requirement: half a brain and absolutely no ambition. If you have either, or both, you're disqualified for any govt position!
Woah now, I work for the government and I like to think I have a bit more than half a brain and a tiny bit of ambition. It is all the legal red tape that usually causes the problems in these sorts of situations, unfortunately sometimes it is because someone is being lazy, but show me one job that doesn't have lazy people somewhere. I run into stupid laws created specifically for government bodies, that destroy my work schedule, but I have to abide by in my job all the time or I could be prosecuted for not following them.
Good grief these feather posts get hectic ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good grief these feather posts get hectic ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is because there is little we use that can get you in trouble as quick as the wrong feathers. :o
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"The federal government IS organized crime!"
Says it all:)
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Good grief these feather posts get hectic ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is because there is little we use that can get you in trouble as quick as the wrong feathers. :o
Yeah I was just reading through this and I am just baffled about how little people know about raptor feather laws. I guess I understand some of the comments on my thread a lot better now though, I guess I just assumed people knew for some reason.
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I would strongly advise not to use any illegal feather, or well eagle feather, but I seriously doubt that the overall majority of game officers would be able to tell the difference from vulture feathers, and goose feathers, unless you got a case of diarrhea of the mouth, and told them, or someone who would tell them, or they should over hear you talking about them. I think most of them would be more interested in the primitive style arrow as a whole, and not so much as, "Hey, what kind of feathers are those?!" Oh, these? Why these are Passenger Pigeon feathers...... ;D I have some pterodactyl feathers at home. Also some bat feathers. I suppose if you wanted go to the trouble, you could say that they are goose feathers, just dyed with magic marker, and you could wet your fingers, and rub a little of the magic marker off on your fingers. Might convince them...... O:) But like it was said, why take the chance with so many other feathers to choose from. Hawkbow, as for the birds, being confiscated, and destroyed, The Native American society, can make a pretty big dust cloud in Washington, especially with the clout they have up there now. Maybe they should contact their representatives. I believe they have one of their own in office up their. Can't remember his name, something Horse. I think. Anywho, the best course is just to let it go to waste. Afterall that is the government way.
Wayne
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Wow... :D who diug this old thing up? ??? This was one of my first posts here... :) -josh
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Hummmm.... may be an old post, but for me it was very informative. As with another post, I had no idea about the laws and feathers. Just got into knapping this summer as a hobby. For me, this was good info. I had no idea a dead buzzard could get you into so much trouble.
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cool, glad you enjoyed it, I didnt know either as I had to ask too. I am glad I didn't use any of the feathers now that I know it is against the law. Didn't mean anything bad by my statement, just curious and inquisitive same as you. :) -josh
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Heck, nothing bad taken. Just saying the post opened my eyes a bit to some laws I was not aware of. Over on the Eastern Shore, there are big ugly buzzards that clean up the road kill. Sometimes they become the road kill. And since I am just learning about bows, arrows, points, etc.... and at some point would like to make my own equipment, I could have very easily stopped to harvest a few feathers. And from what I have read here, that could have gotten me into a lot of trouble. And you know what they say about ignorance of the law and excuses. So this was good to know.
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There is lots of good, useful info here on PA and not just building bows and arrows. ;)
When in doubt, ASK!
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Well, there's a few different ways of looking at this.
First, I totally understand the reasoning behind the Migratory Bird Act. There are, unfortunately, people and entities in this country that would wipe out an entire species if there was a buck or a cheap thrill in it. That's why the Passenger Pigeon is extinct and the buffalo almost became extinct. The Carolina Parakeet was totally wiped out just for feathers to decorate ladies' hats.
However, the law is too tightly bound in the paper and not spirit. There are people who found abandoned nestling crows, raised them, and love them as pets. They're also breaking the law. The same with game birds. See, you can shoot all the crows you want in some states. But to keep one as a pet is against the law. This is simply ridiculous beyond words. A person can shoot as many Mourning Doves in a season as the law allows. Let him find one as a nestling, raise it, and then it imprints and he keeps it, he's breaking the law. What kind of law permits death but not life? Why would a hunter not be allowed to give life as well as taking it? No one's saying he should be raising them and selling them as pets. But to find one that would ahve died, what, he can't go get a permit? The law is too tightly bound in paper and, as a result, it actually causes as many deaths at it prevents in many cases.
There are also people for whom raptor feathers have Spiritual significance. That being Native Americans, both enrolled and unenrolled. There are lots of Natives who are unenrolled and actually have more Native "blood quantum" than some actually enrolled in a tribe. In the Cherokee, for example, if your ancestors did not appear on the various federal government rolls, you're not a Cherokee according to both the tribe and the feds. Bearing in mind that these federal rolls came as the result of the Trail of Tears that thousands of people died on. So, if your ancestors resisted and hid out to preserve their own identity of life, then they actually lost their identity. Why does this matter? Because those unenrolled Natives have no legal right to possess raptor feathers. So, here, the federal government technically denies religious freedom as guaranteed under the First Amendment. What happens if a Native of 50% Indian blood quantum intermarries outside the tribe and his children are 25% blood quantum and the tribe has a 25% blood quantum requirement? If they intermarry, their children lose the religious freedom to possess raptor feathers. These are things to think about. In such cases as unenrolled Natives, they may have to break the law for their own religious faith to possess raptor feathers they find. Is it their fault that certain federal government policies resulted in the destruction and/or relocation of tribes and those tribes were forced to model themselves after that federal government? Again, things to ponder.
I'm not saying anyone should fletch arrows with raptor feathers. We don't need to. And I'm not disputing anything others have said here. I just wanted to bring up some other points of view that others have touched on. Thanks.