Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 10:15:27 pm

Title: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 10:15:27 pm

I started with a gemsbok horn .I cut a strip from each side ,and flattened and tillered each one ,before using a short piece and two horn pegs to join them .  Here is the horns joined next to two other shorties.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/de216a1b04391237660f53fba0cd052da9dbbb52.JPG)

It is 35" nock to nock.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/52616b1d0f38143c6384dbc2150cf35c62a9cbb6.JPG)

And here is a closer picture of the belly side ,You can see where I left the handle thicker and the pins .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/c0e16c10023c1e3e64153ef7d009ee33b260aa31.JPG)

This is the back side .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/263365bf1ed30bdc33a7173a32d86aaec199a7e3.JPG)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 10:27:40 pm

The next thing I did was to build up the nocks a bit .This one is a sliver of a pig tusk.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/fdd361511f000b543d911b35365f632f6e4f87ee.JPG)

And I filed a few grooves for sinew to lay in.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/23f16a140736183b635e540f635641176497eead.jpg)

The other is another tip off a horn.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/9a1267f1c50653601e6364688b182d7a98e76bb4.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/75e365a21b6105873d4819a8323f6a9c0d6866b2.JPG)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/fb916f180a391e3b66e570f22673a25554aca50a.JPG)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: cracker on July 02, 2009, 10:37:43 pm

Very cool bow.Ron

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 10:42:22 pm

This is one of the tips sinew wrapped.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/c373651114d809373a47151d3c636067a7a278d9.jpg)

and the other one.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/1d0263114004634216038265ac766d7090f0d9a4.JPG)

After wrapping both tips,and the handle ,I put down the first sinew layer .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/4172614112010303163332667d5995ad7b32c28d.JPG)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/289262215a07a3db14c3d36cb48d32eecfa3b7ff.JPG)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/7b016117093c113d6ef586d77c9388542391d647.JPG)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/eb936a73128504b932971d453a6a6df8f241cb0a.JPG)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 10:56:01 pm

The first layer of sinew gained 3 to 3 1/2" of reflex .After letting it dry a few weeks this is the first tiller check .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/22026ed1d90273ca14d33a6b2f91bc74d6720a6d.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/72526081af05d3a613c39e649285986f5ca4cb03.jpg)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 11:05:49 pm

Thanks Ron. The next step was to sand the sinew a bit ,and size it to prep for layer two . Notice I sinew wrapped at the end of short handle piece ,to ease that transition and hold the sinew down in that curve .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/2d416c13033316366f4968ac57a14469f412eccb.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/3e026cd18201631f19130261f5121d443cab77fe.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/23f261019c09239210531464ef47d3e009005b93.jpg)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Coo-wah-chobee on July 02, 2009, 11:09:04 pm

What kinna sinew Ralph ?....bob

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 11:10:40 pm

Here is the second layer ,right after laying it down , at the handle.

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/0a7264311602f34b1e13ed68e50688f75e4fd2c4.jpg)

The room was warm and I had water boiling , I  smoothed the sinew as it got tacky ,then tied it backward again.And hung it over the stove .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/f4126441f30bb3ed16f36b66810f0d2c26833965.jpg)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 11:17:23 pm

Little ole whitetail sinew ,Sorry I left that out . I left it over the steam for 3 hours or so ,and smoothed it a few times . Here it is after 3 days of drying with the second layer on .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/e973692b1a0c0f3d3f71194a37766b7edb84dca6.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/02216c1a0a3f153c6bd037abd69200c5e53e79fc.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/9171601c0e371e3266bc6a466147e48166139cce.jpg)

And retied in just a little more reflex .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/ae63659f1c9f0759359b11d03df3638333afcc3b.jpg)

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 02, 2009, 11:23:07 pm

After a few of drying the bow has 7 3/4" of reflex . It's getting harder to pull .This is as far as I could pull it ,held out in front of me ,for the picture. This is the second layer tiller pictures .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/df526561b50b83ab1ac3866b07dddb9defa8eb64.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/41f168100130123b601b601679fae9d9cf810257.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/3541621e023a10376f245ac9dfaf09cde2604048.jpg)

The area near the tip on the horn nocked end (right end ) is bending to early .So I will add more sinew there , before adding the third full layer of sinew.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: cracker on July 03, 2009, 11:03:09 am

Ralph
  This is a very cool thread it is a complete departure from what I normally think of as a bow. I think that when I envision a natural bow I somehow believe that it must have a hunk of wood in it somewhere.
Ron

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: medicinewheel on July 03, 2009, 12:40:19 pm

WOW Ralph! This is more than cool!!!

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 03, 2009, 12:49:45 pm

Thanks guys . We are up to 'real time' on the build now . I'll add just a bit of sinew to the horn nock end in a few days. Wait for it to dry ,then add a smooth third layer to the whole bow . It will be about done then ,except for final tiller ,wrapping the handle ,and finding some horse hair . I'm not sure if I will cover the sinew with anything . Or what kind of handle to use yet ,any ideas ?


Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: medicinewheel on July 03, 2009, 02:24:13 pm

What is your expected draw length and weight, btw.??

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 03, 2009, 02:58:56 pm

I'm trying for 45 to 55 at as close to 26" as I can get.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 05, 2009, 05:51:52 pm

I just weighed it .The second layer has been on a couple weeks ,so it can still loose a bit of weight yet. But right now it weighs 160 grams.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: JackCrafty on July 05, 2009, 08:03:19 pm

Interesting thread.  Nice work Ralph!

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 05, 2009, 10:34:14 pm

Thanks Patrick , I like your short bows a lot too. I have several domestic sheep horns ,and I really try to make a sheep horn bow soon . I think I may start one after this one .

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: ravenbeak on July 06, 2009, 12:59:31 pm

very very cool,

how will you do final tiller?  by scraping horn?

jamie

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 06, 2009, 02:07:45 pm

Most guys heat the horn side ,and flex the limb to tiller . I try not to ,not sure why . I pre tiller both horn limbs ,before glueing together with the overlapping piece .Then I tiller the horn again as a complete horn only bow . So I figure the horn is right ,I don't want to remove any more horn after that . I think any tiller problems after starting sinewing ,have to be with my sinewing ....

After I get close to the weight I want , I may have to sand a little sinew or scape the horn a tad ,or heat and bend .(depending on unstrung ,strung ,and drawn profiles,, I try to keep them symmetrical ) But while I still have sinew to apply , I might as well apply it in a way that helps the tiller .(as log as the sinew doesn't get thicker in a spot than the same spot on the other limb)   At least that's the way I look at it. I may be wrong .

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: ravenbeak on July 06, 2009, 03:02:34 pm

very interesting..

i am curious,  does heating the horn side and deflexing the limbs slightly not re liquify the hide glue holding the sinew?

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 06, 2009, 04:42:39 pm

Yes I think that's why it works .You can make a heated spot stiffer or weaker,in part ,by bending it in reflex or deflex . Then the glue resets .  I think James uses heat to tiller horn bows ,maybe he'll see this thread and respond . I know he can explain it way better than me.(he tried to explain it to me once ) I've only heated a couple limbs to weaken them a little. Heat and then flex repeatedly till it starts to cool .

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Hillbilly on July 06, 2009, 04:44:53 pm

That's looking great, Ralph-very interesting.

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 12, 2009, 03:38:56 pm

Thanks Steve .
I added a bit of sinew to both tips ,more to the horn tipped end ,which is now on the left of these pictures .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/e9e16316073f1e3d685e8444d46d83473dc13495.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/ecc26df1ac0c93941ba3c965110528cac85a9b97.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/300264e1240753d21d7337698418dcfe8d474761.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/46f16b19043115326d778f2e6cf2131058afaa32.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/e3f16f100039113d6ba897de1619de7d938b96cc.jpg)

I'm not positive if I was pulling real even ,but it looks like the right side is weaker .I think I will make a string for it .Then check the tiller strung.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Timo on July 12, 2009, 04:23:24 pm

Dang thang looks stout to me Ralph!  And as for the weak limb....The limb on your left side looks weaker to me?

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 12, 2009, 04:36:50 pm

    That's right my left ,photo's right. But it has the tiller shape I'm after .So I might have to scrape a little horn on the other horn near the handle.
    It is a little hard to pull ,out in front of me like that.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: El Destructo on July 12, 2009, 05:42:23 pm

                                          build a good Tiller Stick or Tiller tree....would be a lot safer too!!

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on July 12, 2009, 09:56:32 pm

Yepp ,a tree would be safer . I have never used one though ,and I don't think anyone had one in the teepee.
   But my best excuse for not having one ,is almost all of my bows bend in the handle a bit .And I feel that bend more than see it . In the few bows like this one I've made , I think it helps to feel the movement / flexing ,if any ,of the butt joint too .Feeling the movements around the handle joints ,lets me know if I need to sinew wrap the handle more before drawing the bow further.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on August 11, 2009, 10:01:33 pm

During the tillering ,I noticed a bit too much flexing in the handle . So I removed the sinew covering the butt joint ,and sure enough the reflexing pulled the joint apart .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/c6d369761a6c016939331f623a866e3db496366d.jpg)

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/9713630e17430d3031de19083fb16dc3630088e8.jpg)

So now I have to make a bone or ivory spacer .

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: JustAim on August 12, 2009, 12:35:59 am

Well that sucks, Ralph. But at least it hasnt broke on you. For putting in the spacer between the butt joints...can you use horn or does it have to be bone? l'm getting ready to make a turkish horn bow so l'm just trying to learn everything l can before l begin the process. Thanks and hope the bow turns out for you.

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on August 12, 2009, 12:55:46 am

Yea you can use horn .But this is such a small gap, A small piece of tusk or a sliver from a bone will be easy to make fit . For me it's easier to make denser material like bone fit very tight in a small gap . When I try to shape a very small piece of horn I either take to much off or break it .

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: jamie on August 12, 2009, 05:47:11 am

this is pretty damn cool

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Timo on August 12, 2009, 07:24:17 am

Ralph, you say the sinew is pulling in reflex, and spreading the joint,so the pic is of the belly right?

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on August 12, 2009, 02:52:58 pm

Yes ,the last two pictures are of the belly side of the handle.

Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Herm from Bavaria on August 12, 2009, 03:40:49 pm

yeah man! thats really really cool. my respect for this awsome skillz!

greets

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: welch2 on March 16, 2010, 09:48:30 am

Sorry I've been so slow . I finally got the spacer in . It a piece from a small solid bone in a elk's foot .

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/99e16415063d143d608edd2392d681f6d5f5bde9.jpg)


Ralph

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: M-P on March 16, 2010, 01:52:09 pm

Hi All,   Cool thread!  I don't know why I didn't notice it earlier.   I'm near the end of a similar project.   I don't want to hijack Ralph's thread, so I'll wait and post my own thread later.  But, I like the building method.... very authentic.   A couple have authors have built "plains horn bows" using a wooden core.  Their bows look great, but are not authentic!!  As far as I can tell from my literature review the North American horn bows were always just horn / antler and sinew.  Of course there wasn't a lot of access to gemsbok horn, but I I won't quibble on that point.        Ron

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Jake Levi on April 24, 2010, 10:25:32 am

Really beautiful job Ralph,

I am 'kind of toying' with the idea of a sheeps horn bull similar to this, but want to make a bison/osage one first ala Jim Hamms little rocket launc her.

Do you have a draw weight yet?

Jake

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: MWirwicki on June 25, 2011, 01:07:50 am

Hope the bow is going well.  You haven't posted in a while.  I too am preparing to do a horn composite bow but, was going to use a wood core.  I sure like your horn/sinew attempt.  I've collected some gemsbok horn and I guess that I am ready to begin.  So, what am I waiting for?

Post pics!

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: BowEd on July 07, 2011, 11:07:05 pm

Very very interesting.I've boughten a few gems bok horns in the past....LOL On ebay.Maybe I was bidding against one of you guys...LOL.I put my horn on the belly of a bamboo backed hickory core.Super thread your doing here.I for one am gonna keep an eye on your progress.I know your gonna get-er done but good luck anyway.Guess I'll start biddin on some more gems bok horn.LOL.

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: swtchbckshtr on July 16, 2011, 01:33:08 pm

that is nice, I bet that thing will fling an arrow too. very nice work

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Lee Slikkers on July 30, 2011, 09:09:05 am

Any more progress on This Ralph? 

Matt, have you started yours yet?  Considering a build-a-long for us who want to live and learn vicariously through you?

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: 4nolz on August 27, 2011, 06:35:52 pm

thanks for this it has been REAL helpful to me doing the same project.My sinew jobs NEVER look that clean what glue is that- hide glue? My hide glue turned out very dark colored compared to that?

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: MWirwicki on September 08, 2011, 10:25:02 pm

Lee:  Actually, I finished it.  I will be posting it sooon.  I shoulda done a build-a-long.  I will on the next one, promise! 

Title: Re: Horn and sinew plains bow
Post by: Lee Slikkers on September 08, 2011, 11:31:18 pm

Quote from: MWirwicki on September 08, 2011, 10:25:02 pm

Lee:  Actually, I finished it.  I will be posting it sooon.  I shoulda done a build-a-long.  I will on the next one, promise!

 ;D 8) ;D