Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Adam Keiper on July 05, 2009, 10:59:01 pm
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I've found information on the net about the size and shape of medieval fletchings, but nothing as to whether they were applied straight or with a helical twist. Nor have I seen reference as to what was glue may have been used to attach the feathers, nor what finish was used to seal the shafts or fletch wrappings. Can anyone provide info?
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Check out the EWBS website, they have some info on arrow standards.
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I've found information on the net about the size and shape of medieval fletchings, but nothing as to whether they were applied straight or with a helical twist. Nor have I seen reference as to what was glue may have been used to attach the feathers, nor what finish was used to seal the shafts or fletch wrappings. Can anyone provide info?
As noted in ‘The Art of Archery’ [you can look it up on ‘Archery Library’], arrows in MR time were either glued or waxed. Those found on the MR were waxed with a mixture of wax, resin and viridian. The mixture is heated until fluid and applied to the shaftment. When cool the feathers are tied in position with spiraly wrapped thread, and then carefully heated to again melt the mixture and fuse everything together. A similar earlier process used birch tar made from birch bark.. This was used in the Nydam arrows as well as in the Viking period. There is an excellent and thorough article on this in the current June/July issue of ‘Primitive Archer’, Glue was probably animal glue, used until fairly recently, or isinglass and Bronze Age arrows are reported to have used bluebell glue. Viking and Alemannic fletching and I think Mary Rose too, were helical.
Cheers,
Erik
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Mary Rose fletchings were helical?? ??? Not the ones I saw. They looked like they were fletched straight, or maybe offset a very small amount. Why would you want a battleshaft to be helically fletched? You'd probably lose 50 yards in cast with helical fletching.
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There is no reason to helically fletch them - the arrow will spin because of the natural shape of the feathers
I know this to be true from my high speed filming - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.blackham/ewbs/hscam/shooting/shot1.avi
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I've found information on the net about the size and shape of medieval fletchings, but nothing as to whether they were applied straight or with a helical twist. Nor have I seen reference as to what was glue may have been used to attach the feathers, nor what finish was used to seal the shafts or fletch wrappings. Can anyone provide info?
As noted in ‘The Art of Archery’ [you can look it up on ‘Archery Library’], arrows in MR time were either glued or waxed. Those found on the MR were waxed with a mixture of wax, resin and viridian. The mixture is heated until fluid and applied to the shaftment. When cool the feathers are tied in position with spiraly wrapped thread, and then carefully heated to again melt the mixture and fuse everything together. A similar earlier process used birch tar made from birch bark.. This was used in the Nydam arrows as well as in the Viking period. There is an excellent and thorough article on this in the current June/July issue of ‘Primitive Archer’, Glue was probably animal glue, used until fairly recently, or isinglass and Bronze Age arrows are reported to have used bluebell glue. Viking and Alemannic fletching and I think Mary Rose too, were helical.
Cheers,
Erik
As far as I know the glue used was a Verdigris mixture, this is an animal based glue (Rabbit Glue) mixed with copper for waterproofing, also this glue dries very quickly, the feather was then stuck on straight and not helical, the silk whipping was then put in place and as you can see by the MR arrow below the whipping thread has all but dissapeared so the glue could not have been heated and sealed the thread otherwise it would still be there and you can plainly see that the thread has gone leaving an imprint where it once was. Also to heat the glue to a temperature that it would melt would cause the feather to burn.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/MRArrow2.jpg)
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As far as I know the glue used was a Verdigris mixture, this is an animal based glue (Rabbit Glue) mixed with copper for waterproofing, also this glue dries very quickly, the feather was then stuck on straight and not helical, the silk whipping was then put in place and as you can see by the MR arrow below the whipping thread has all but dissapeared so the glue could not have been heated and sealed the thread otherwise it would still be there and you can plainly see that the thread has gone leaving an imprint where it once was. Also to heat the glue to a temperature that it would melt would cause the feather to burn.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/MRArrow2.jpg)
Hugh Soar writes that the mixture was bees wax, pitch and verdegris, no glue per se.Verdegris is acetate of copper and gives the green colour. If you have better information, I would like to see it.The red silk [some is reported to have been preserved] binding would have been wound onto the feathers over the cooled mixture. You can see the fletching placement and the imprint of the thread left in the reheated fused mixture. Yes, you can heat the wax without burning the feathers. It is clear from your comments that you have not read the excellent article on this topic in 'Primitive Archer' magazine. Try it. You can learn something.
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I think we can all learn (and teach) things along the way, if we're willing, and be gracious about how that happens. Learning is not a contest to reveal who thinks they know more.
As far as glue goes, there are many types, and I think pitch qualifies. Plain old water can be glue. I'm not sure anyone knows definitively what the purpose of the verdegris actually was. Also, if anyone was interested, they could go to the Mary Rose museum and see these things for themself firsthand, and not have to guess.
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As far as I know the glue used was a Verdigris mixture, this is an animal based glue (Rabbit Glue) mixed with copper for waterproofing, also this glue dries very quickly, the feather was then stuck on straight and not helical, the silk whipping was then put in place and as you can see by the MR arrow below the whipping thread has all but dissapeared so the glue could not have been heated and sealed the thread otherwise it would still be there and you can plainly see that the thread has gone leaving an imprint where it once was. Also to heat the glue to a temperature that it would melt would cause the feather to burn.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/MRArrow2.jpg)
Hugh Soar writes that the mixture was bees wax, pitch and verdegris, no glue per se.Verdegris is acetate of copper and gives the green colour. If you have better information, I would like to see it.The red silk [some is reported to have been preserved] binding would have been wound onto the feathers over the cooled mixture. You can see the fletching placement and the imprint of the thread left in the reheated fused mixture. Yes, you can heat the wax without burning the feathers. It is clear from your comments that you have not read the excellent article on this topic in 'Primitive Archer' magazine. Try it. You can learn something.
Hi Bow-Toxo
Look everything I have written comes from 1st hand knowledge, by this I mean I have studied the arrows, Bows and many other artifacts on the MR, not through a glass case but actually holding them, You see I have personal access to all of the archery related artifacts and use a special study room at the Mary Rose Trust to do my research, so please don't tell me to read some article probably written by another academic who has never handled these bows or arrows.
There are far to many so called experts who make statements but have never handled or been up close and personal to the items we are talking about, So please do not quote books at me or authors.
Hugh Soar is a close and personal freind, I very much doubt you have ever met him, So much new information has been gleaned by people like me and Mark Stretton with regards these artifacts that a lot of our previous beliefs about what was and what could be has been updated, research does not stop once someone has written a book about it, things move on like anything else we get better at it.
Mark Stretton and I are now helping medieval historians and academics in getting a better understanding of what they are teaching their students, We have recently done a lecture with Dr Anne Curry at Southampton University and are now booked to do a similar lecture at Reading University on the bows and arrows of the medieval period.
As ADB says this is not a pissing competition, however please accept that their are others out here who know a lot more about the actual artifacts than you do.
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Well said, yewboy.
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Hi Bow-Toxo
Look everything I have written comes from 1st hand knowledge, by this I mean I have studied the arrows, Bows and many other artifacts on the MR, not through a glass case but actually holding them, You see I have personal access to all of the archery related artifacts and use a special study room at the Mary Rose Trust to do my research, so please don't tell me to read some article probably written by another academic who has never handled these bows or arrows.
There are far to many so called experts who make statements but have never handled or been up close and personal to the items we are talking about, So please do not quote books at me or authors.
Hugh Soar is a close and personal freind, I very much doubt you have ever met him, So much new information has been gleaned by people like me and Mark Stretton with regards these artifacts that a lot of our previous beliefs about what was and what could be has been updated, research does not stop once someone has written a book about it, things move on like anything else we get better at it.
Mark Stretton and I are now helping medieval historians and academics in getting a better understanding of what they are teaching their students, We have recently done a lecture with Dr Anne Curry at Southampton University and are now booked to do a similar lecture at Reading University on the bows and arrows of the medieval period.
As ADB says this is not a pissing competition, however please accept that their are others out here who know a lot more about the actual artifacts than you do.
I was beginning to think that you were Mark, or maybe you are, just trying to throw us of the scent. ;)
Anyway, there is some interesting stuff here gents. Just to add something, when speaking to Chris Boyton some time ago the subject of the copper in the glue came up and he has a good theory, which is that the glue (being nocked up in copper pots) would have absorbed the copper.
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Hugh Soar writes that the mixture was bees wax, pitch and verdegris, no glue per se.Verdegris is acetate of copper and gives the green colour. If you have better information, I would like to see it.The red silk [some is reported to have been preserved] binding would have been wound onto the feathers over the cooled mixture. You can see the fletching placement and the imprint of the thread left in the reheated fused mixture. Yes, you can heat the wax without burning the feathers. It is clear from your comments that you have not read the excellent article on this topic in 'Primitive Archer' magazine. Try it. You can learn something.
[/quote]
Hi Bow-Toxo
Look everything I have written comes from 1st hand knowledge, by this I mean I have studied the arrows, Bows and many other artifacts on the MR, not through a glass case but actually holding them, You see I have personal access to all of the archery related artifacts and use a special study room at the Mary Rose Trust to do my research, so please don't tell me to read some article probably written by another academic who has never handled these bows or arrows.
There are far to many so called experts who make statements but have never handled or been up close and personal to the items we are talking about, So please do not quote books at me or authors.
Hugh Soar is a close and personal freind, I very much doubt you have ever met him, So much new information has been gleaned by people like me and Mark Stretton with regards these artifacts that a lot of our previous beliefs about what was and what could be has been updated, research does not stop once someone has written a book about it, things move on like anything else we get better at it.
Mark Stretton and I are now helping medieval historians and academics in getting a better understanding of what they are teaching their students, We have recently done a lecture with Dr Anne Curry at Southampton University and are now booked to do a similar lecture at Reading University on the bows and arrows of the medieval period.
As ADB says this is not a pissing competition, however please accept that their are others out here who know a lot more about the actual artifacts than you do.
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Hi Yewboy;
I suggested that you to read an article not by an academic, but by an archer and fletdher who has worked with the materials that were actually found to have been used on mediaeval arrows and who shows step by step how it was and is done, with photographs. As I thought you were interested, I recommended an informative article. If you are not, or think you don't have anything to learn from anyone else, don't bother. How did your study of the arrows convince you that rabbit glue was used ? As Hugh Soar is a close personal friend, you can of course ask him if I am misquoting him. If my information is incorrect, I want to correct it. I welcome information from those who know more about the artifacts than I do and I have requested lt. Unfortunately they seem unwilling to share. I wish you good luck and an open mind in your research. ADB says this is not a pissing competition. Can you please convince him of that ?
Erik
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Bow-toxo,
Sorry, mate... you've misquoted me. I said nothing about a "pissing contest." That was someone else. However, do you have any idea how arrogant you sound? There are people who have seen, handled and studied the Mary Rose artifacts. I have seen and handled a few of them, but have not studied any in detail. Have you? You telling these people that you know more is beyond arrogance. It's insulting. Open your mind and be willing to learn from those who know. I am no expert on this, and could not imagine telling those that are what they should know or do.
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I have to say that I have some sympathy with anyone who knows their subject, in the face of some of the uninformed comment which is not unusual in topics such as these.
But knowing the sensitivity of the proprietors to the use of plain Anglo Saxon, I would prefer that we do not resort to it's use on this site.
Gentlemen, please make your point without resorting to the colloquial English usage.
And as has been observed, a little more graciousness from those with some knowledge would not go amiss.
Nuff said?
Rod.
If the article in PA was by Hugh Soar, then I think it likely to be an informed opinion worthy of consideration, unlike an earlier article I saw in the magazine, which featured a "modified" field point pretending to be a bodkin, no coating on the shaftment, a stock parallel standard arrow shaft and no horn nock insert.
Viridian, as a pigment, is no doubt useful as a tint to replicate the appearance of the verdigris content.
Do we as yet have a scientific analyses of the chemical content of the shaftment coating?
In my last conversation on this topic, copper sulfate was mooted.
Before that copper oxide had been mentioned.
An acetate of copper is a new one as far as I know, but then I have not made a study of the composition of shaftment coating.
As for helical fletches on a livery shaft, we only have to look at the artefacts and at contemporary illustration.
Straight fletching was the order of the day.
Spin derives from the aerodynamic affect of the smooth/rough sides of the fletch and the consequent difference in air pressure thus generated in flight.
(Nonetheless the effect of helicals on distance is often exagerrated.
On hunting shafts using straight fletch and helicals on otherwise identical shafts, the difference in distance is not so great as you might think, but that is another topic....)
Rod.
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Bow-toxo,
Sorry, mate... you've misquoted me. I said nothing about a "pissing contest." That was someone else. However, do you have any idea how arrogant you sound? There are people who have seen, handled and studied the Mary Rose artifacts. I have seen and handled a few of them, but have not studied any in detail. Have you? You telling these people that you know more is beyond arrogance. It's insulting. Open your mind and be willing to learn from those who know. I am no expert on this, and could not imagine telling those that are what they should know or do.
Check again. It was Yewboy who misquoted you. The end of his post#8 ? I haven't told anyone that I know more. In response to questions like "Can anyone provide info ?" I post what information I have. If it disagrees with someone elses information let's find out which is correct. Both parties can back up their information. Isn't that the point of a forum ?
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when speaking to Chris Boyton some time ago the subject of the copper in the glue came up and he has a good theory, which is that the glue (being nocked up in copper pots) would have absorbed the copper.
Great minds think alike ;)
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Except that being of an age where I remember glue pots being commonplace in a workshop, I don't think I ever saw one made out of copper....
Rod.
acetate: a salt of acetic acid
verdigris: basic cupric acetate: popularly, the green coating of basic cupric carbonate that forms in atmosphere on copper, brass or bronze.
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they were made from iron and only because in those days everything was made of iron. my dad still has at least one.
But as anyone that knows anything will testify, warm something up that you want to stay warm for any time and you make it from copper, not iron.
The iron glue pots were two part, an inner pot for the glue dropped inside another pot full of hot water.
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From what I’ve heard, medieval fletching was usually applied straight. Go figure, I think it’s harder to fletch straight than it is to fletch offset (feathers are naturally curved).
I am the author of the fletching article in the magazine. I have not had the pleasure of examining any original European artifacts because I live far across the pond. I’m not a highly opinionated academic, just a guy who has been experimenting with different materials that would have been historically available in Europe (goose feathers, linen thread, etc). How can anyone say exactly how an arrow was fletched in medieval times without actually seeing it done. All I know is that the method in my article has worked for me and I wanted to share it. I’ve loosed enough arrows to learn what holds up and what does not. Of all the methods I’ve tried, birch pitch is the most durable option.
I’m sure that different techniques were used at any given time, in any given part of Europe. A lot of it probably depended on what materials they had at hand and how much time they could dedicate to the task, at least in the early days. In my experience, the most efficient way to fletch heaps of medieval war arrows would have been to use some type of hide glue brushed on once the feathers were bound in place. Still a time consuming task by modern standards. I don’t remember any references to birch pitch being used in the later medieval days. It’s just too time consuming. A beeswax and pitch mixture has to be applied the same way, also time consuming. But then again, Mary Rose was probably carrying primo archery gear, and the glue may have been beeswax and pitch. Probably the bigger question is whether the Mary Rose arrows represent the typical medieval war arrow or highly polished pieces of gear.
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I think you guys should both kiss and make up... Or maybe find a nice girl and go out to dinner or something.
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Amazing how uniform the whipping is...and the number of turns is much higher than I would expect of a war arrow. Looks like there was a lot of care taken in the construction of the MR arrows. I haven't read the article in PA yet....looking forward to seeing it.
From personal experience, a beeswax mixture seems to be a more reasonable "glue" than an animal based glue. Rain and moisture would affect the animal glue and make quite a mess, in my opinion. Isn't formaldehyde the only thing that makes animal glue insoluble?
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Jack, adding tannin is suposed to make hide glue more water resistant. I tried it and did not notice a difference. Also tried smoking it over a fire, said to naturally impart formaldehyde. That did not work for me either.
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Anglobow, that's good info. I've heard of the "smoke the glue" idea for making animal glue water resistant (because of the formaldehyde present in smoke) but the concentration seems to be too small to make a difference. I'm glad you were able to perform a test to confirm.
In the discussions I've seen on the MR artifacts, the chemistry of the interaction of the water (where the ship was submerged) and the artifacts was only briefly mentioned. I wonder how well it is understood? Certainly animal glue would not survive after being submerged for so long....even if it was "waterproofed". Is there a good reference on the chemistry of the interaction between salt water and the bows/arrows? Have there been tests performed on reproductions which have been submerged for long periods? Thanks.
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Jack, I don't know if such tests have been made, but it would be interesting to see.
I haven't done a whole lot of reading on the Mary Rose or the medieval archery texts that everyone talks about. I guess I'm more interested in the earlier stuff, stone age through early medieval.
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I think less typing and more shooting would straighten out everyones attitude
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Thanks Anglobow for your excellent article that shows clearly how early mediaeval arrows were fletched. As you said, birch tar, unlike animal glue, is waterproof. It is found on arrows up to the Viking period and went out of use in England but continued on the continent and is still produced in Poland and Russia. I believe the same process with substitute ingredients, also waterproof, was used on the MR waxed arrows. Animal glue, not waterproof, might have been less desirable at sea.
As I have said, I welcome correction. In that spirit, I checked my notes and correct myself, The Alemannic arrows had straight fletching but the Viking arrows were definitely helical as shown in my drawing . For the Mary Rose arrows, I plan to visit the MR exhibit in September and can see for myself. I would appreciate suggestions on how to get hands on access.
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Thanks Anglobow for your excellent article that shows clearly how early mediaeval arrows were fletched. As you said, birch tar, unlike animal glue, is waterproof. It is found on arrows up to the Viking period and went out of use in England but continued on the continent and is still produced in Poland and Russia. I believe the same process with substitute ingredients, also waterproof, was used on the MR waxed arrows. Animal glue, not waterproof, might have been less desirable at sea.
As I have said, I welcome correction. In that spirit, I checked my notes and correct myself, The Alemannic arrows had straight fletching but the Viking arrows were definitely helical as shown in my drawing . For the Mary Rose arrows, I plan to visit the MR exhibit in September and can see for myself. I would appreciate suggestions on how to get hands on access.
Well if your very very good I can possibly get you into the back room to handle some of the artifacts, PM me nearer the time and I'll see what I can do.
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Well if your very very good I can possibly get you into the back room to handle some of the artifacts, PM me nearer the time and I'll see what I can do.
Thank you for your very generous offer. It's much appreciated.
Cheers,
Erik
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Yewboy
It sounds as though your conducting some pretty interesting reseaerch. I'm sure the vast majority of the forums members would be interested to know the exact nature of your research hypothesis and your research methodology.
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Yewboy
It sounds as though your conducting some pretty interesting reseaerch. I'm sure the vast majority of the forums members would be interested to know the exact nature of your research hypothesis and your research methodology.
Hi Horace
Well my research is really a personal venture to gain as much knowledge on the subject of the medieval military bow and the arrows that were used with them, I am very fortunate in the fact the the MR Trust have allowed me access to the artifacts and a study room to further my research, My methodology is purely hands on and experimental with actual close reproductions, I also have similar access to the Westminster Abbey with regards the arrow found.
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Yewboy, this is fascinating stuff. You have to get it all down in a book, personal quests can often become lucrative ventures.
Nat
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Yewboy
Sounds as if your in a very privaliged position, do you have any plans to publish your research?
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Well I have never thought of writing a book, however I may get round to it at some stage, but at the moment I have not completed my research, so no book untill I am absolutely sure that I have got it right.
Thanks for the thought though.
I am at present trying to recreate a natural string from hemp that will stand up to the stresses that a 150lb+ bow will put on it, I know linen works reasonably well but I feel that hemp may be stronger, if only I can work out what the glue was. So far I have raw hemp which has been spun into a thread, this is quite strong but not strong enough, I know that a pine resin glue was used to bind the fibres together but then this makes the string quite hard and not very flexible, I also know some form of natural vegetable oil was used to enable the glued string to be flexible but I have to find a natural oil that was available in England and at the correct period, The Japanease used natane oil mixed with pine resin in their hemp Yumi bow strings but this was not available in England, Rape seed oil can be used but again not available during the time period I am looking at, Natane (rapeseed) is a Brassica, so I am trying different Brassica plants and trying to extract the oil from them to make the glue.
So as you can see there is no point in me publishing anything untill I have answers for all aspect of the bow and arrows.
I have very accurate replicas of the bows made from Italian Yew, I have accurate replica arrows, but no string yet.
I will keep you all up to date with my findings if you are interested, but I will not get into time wasting arguments about my research, if someone feels they know better then please don't tell me I'm wrong unless you have physical evidense and can prove what you are saying.
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Sounds fascinating Yewboy, strings are certainly the missing piece of the jigsaw. There are, as you proberbly know, fragments of tar covered rope recovered from the Mary Rose, do you think they could hold a clue to the construction of the bows strings?
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Thanks for that Horace, yes but all these tar covered fragments of rope can help with is rope construction and not the glues used as these were probably fragments of the anti boarding nets that covered the decks and also helped to trap the crew when she went down, I'm sure the tar would negate the need for another glue type, however it is worth investigating, I believe recently a small fragment of what could be a bow string has been found and is now being tested by the MR Trust but I am not privvy to that info at present and probably will not be untill the MR has done their research, but here's hoping.
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There is enough evidence about the string construction that the only open question is the composition of the "water-glewe" mentooned by Smythe, who was a great booster of archery in the reign of Elizabeth I. My guess is simply hoof glue, which has actually been used. Other possibilities are suggested by Kani, a Saracen writer who gave the recipe that Moslems were using on their silk bowstrings. It was 5 parts beeswax,10 parts resin and 20 parts fish glue which was applied to the main part of the string, not the separate loops. Crossbow strings were treated with cordwainers coode, which, although I think we don't have the exact recipe, would probably have included pine pitch, resin, oil or beeswax
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It's a long way from being a "war" bow but I have an Aldred with the original string which has become rather dry having once been left for a long time in a hot dry location and the string coating has become somewhat fragmented.
It seems to me that this type of coating does better in a slightly damp climate than in one that is too dry.
Rod.
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My first proper post and its a question on Medieval Fletching.
Just over a year ago I was given some superb tips by a very knowledgeable chap who may well be on this forum.He showed me the benefit of deepening the nock so that a leather strip could be inserted and secured by glue and binding onto the shaft.This acts as a cushion against the string and is in addition to horn reinforcement.
I have never seen the MR or Westminster arrows up close and wonder out of interest, if this technique is in evidence on these arrows?
Best wishes,
Mark.
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There is no reason to helically fletch them - the arrow will spin because of the natural shape of the feathers
I know this to be true from my high speed filming - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.blackham/ewbs/hscam/shooting/shot1.avi
So you mean I don't have to go through all that trouble of putting a helical on my Fetches and get more range.
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There is no reason to helically fletch them - the arrow will spin because of the natural shape of the feathers
I know this to be true from my high speed filming - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.blackham/ewbs/hscam/shooting/shot1.avi
So you mean I don't have to go through all that trouble of putting a helical on my Fetches and get more range.
Helical fletching works well for short feathers, but for long ones of the English Warbow arrow type, you don't need them for the reason stated above. The ONLY advantage of the long feathers on these military arrows was rapid stabilisation of the arrows which were of a standard length and spine (well, more or less) whereas the bows were not, so arrow spines were not typically matched to the bow.
Cheers, Dave
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Before the scientific measurement of spine, shafts might be sorted by cross sectional size and weight, which works well enough most of the time, there being a general but not precise relationship between density and stiffness in a shaft material of a given dimension.
Beyond this they are sorted by feel when bent in the hand and by where they go when shot cleanly, if necessary.
Rod.
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Helical fletching works well for short feathers, but for long ones of the English Warbow arrow type, you don't need them for the reason stated above. The ONLY advantage of the long feathers on these military arrows was rapid stabilisation of the arrows which were of a standard length and spine (well, more or less) whereas the bows were not, so arrow spines were not typically matched to the bow.
Cheers, Dave
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Have just got back from Europe and my first visit to the Mary Rose museum. Quite wonderful. i met Alex Aldred who is working on a book based on her study of Mary Rose archery gear. In a position to consult the person who has seen more of Mary Rose arrows than probably anyone in the world, I asked; 'Straight fletching or helical ?" Immediate one word answer: "Helical". That's good enough for me. Others more knowledgeable than me can debate whether modern fletchers have better ideas than theirTudor ancestors. Also, are sheaf arrows together in a leather disc all different lengths ? No.
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Bow-toxo,
Although I have been to the MR museum, I haven't yet seen the stuff in the "back". You are correct regarding the lengths of the arrows being mixed, and this has been commented on many, many times on this and other forums, which is why I stated "sort of" referring to standardisation of the arrows. As to the fletching, I have seen several photos of the lines on the shafts where the fletching was glued, and I have to say that they look straight to me. I have seen 16th century chinese arrows with very low profile fletching, of a foot or more in length, that were glued helically onto the shaft, so I would certainly say my original statement regarding helical fletching only working for short fletching was wrong!
Dave
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Helical fletching works well for short feathers, but for long ones of the English Warbow arrow type, you don't need them for the reason stated above. The ONLY advantage of the long feathers on these military arrows was rapid stabilisation of the arrows which were of a standard length and spine (well, more or less) whereas the bows were not, so arrow spines were not typically matched to the bow.
Cheers, Dave
Have just got back from Europe and my first visit to the Mary Rose museum. Quite wonderful. i met Alex Aldred who is working on a book based on her study of Mary Rose archery gear. In a position to consult the person who has seen more of Mary Rose arrows than probably anyone in the world, I asked; 'Straight fletching or helical ?" Immediate one word answer: "Helical". That's good enough for me. Others more knowledgeable than me can debate whether modern fletchers have better ideas than theirTudor ancestors. Also, are sheaf arrows together in a leather disc all different lengths ? No.
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What evidence is she basing her statement on?
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Sorry Bow-toxo, I misunderstood what you were saying. Your source tells you that the arrow-shafts were all of the same length in the arrow-bags? As well as having helical fletching? Did I get this right?
Dave
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Sorry Bow-toxo, I misunderstood what you were saying. Your source tells you that the arrow-shafts were all of the same length in the arrow-bags? As well as having helical fletching? Did I get this right?
Dave
Not quite.The helical fletching, yes. Arrow bags were not mentioned. In given leather discs, at least some of them, all arrows were the same length as might be expected if they were from a competentfletcher.
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take any pictures of the arrows? From what I've seen the fletches were laid in the glue straight. helical makes sense but art works (call it art if you like but they were more like news paper photographs IMO) show fletches straight, even the clumsy pictures. Photographs of artifacts seem to show a straight line where the quill was stuck
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take any pictures of the arrows? From what I've seen the fletches were laid in the glue straight. helical makes sense but art works (call it art if you like but they were more like news paper photographs IMO) show fletches straight, even the clumsy pictures. Photographs of artifacts seem to show a straight line where the quill was stuck
No pictures.
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The fletchings were all straight, not helical, Have just finished a fletching DVD with Mark Stretton and we have filmed these arrows from the MR and they show close ups of where the Fletching lay in the glue and they are straight.....all of the ones that have the glue still in place, there is not one arrow there which has any evidence of a helical fletch.....Sorry Bow-Toxo, I am sure you mis heard Alex's answer.
Also the lengths of the arrows does differ, there are arrows of 27" right through to 33" but the vast majority are 30.5", these are also covered in the DVD in some detail.
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I ask again, bow-toxo, what evidence is Alex basing her statement of "helical" fletching on? I have seen the Mary Rose arrows myself as well, and the evidence marks look straight to me.
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Also the lengths of the arrows does differ, there are arrows of 27" right through to 33" but the vast majority are 30.5", these are also covered in the DVD in some detail.
I know that the arrow sizes are as you say. I did not mean the entire collection as a group. I tried to say; a sheaf of arrows together in the same disc are all 24 the same length. In another sheaf they may be a different length from those in the first sheaf.
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adb,
In looking at the photograph you posted the witness mark, (if indeed it is a witness mark), seems to show an offset fetching going from near the lower left hand edge to the right centre of the shaft. Or is this just a function of the photograph?
Craig.
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I actually took the photo that adb has shown and the quill marks are most definately straight, there are many others as well.
I think that what Alex was referring to was the helical binding that holds the fletch in place and not the actual fletch being attached helically.
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Yewboy ,
Thanks for the information, if you have other photos of the fletching area I would appreciate it if you posted them or pointed to a link where I may view them.
Craig.
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Yewboy ,
Thanks for the information, if you have other photos of the fletching area I would appreciate it if you posted them or pointed to a link where I may view them.
Craig.
Hi Craig,
Mark Stretton and I have just produced a Dvd on fletching medieval arrows and this shows many of the arrows close up and you can see the fletching imprints, this is also evident on the arrow found in Westminster abbey
it will be available from Monday, pm me if you want details of where to buy it
thanks
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Given that the opinion of experienced archers and fletchers who have personally inspected these shafts is unanimous as to them being straight fletched, perhaps someone who is known to Alex might get in touch with her and get her comment on this report.
Rod.