Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: zenmonkeyman on November 26, 2009, 11:24:30 pm

Title: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on November 26, 2009, 11:24:30 pm

Hello to everybody.  I've been lurking around here for oh,... several days.  Less than a week.  I've been extremely impressed with the friendly tone of all the debates and comments.  I finally realized that you guys are largely the paradox that describes me:  sensitive artist-redneck.  I'm proud to be in your company.

So.  Rather than have you guys give me a fish, or tell me how to fish, I'm going to let all of you show me how to fish.  Most of you won't realize how helpful you've been, because I'll search out my questions (mostly) rather than ask them, and I'll read your postings on other threads. Thank you all for helping to create this incredible resource.  Hopefully you won't be rolling your eyes at questions that have been answered hundreds of times before.

I'm going to post my planned steps before I take them, and please feel free (I'm begging you) to tell me when I'm about to do something dumb.

Here's my overall plan:  I have a 72" oak plank 1 1/2" wide X 3/4" thick.  The grain looks pretty good, the board is dead straight left-to-right.  I'm aiming for 45-48# @ 28".  I'm going to glue on a 10"riser offset from the center by an inch.  I'll leave the limbs 1 1/2 inches wide until a point 15" from the tips, then a straight taper to 1/2" at the tips.  I'd like to reflex both at the fades and again at the tips with steam.  I'm also planning on backing the bow with brown paper and possibly heat-treating the belly.

Is red oak compatible with everything I'm thinking of doing?

Here's my blank:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3556_1_1.jpg)

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3557_1_1.jpg)

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Pat B on November 27, 2009, 09:40:16 am

I'm gonna take Scott's suggestion and move this to "Bows". If later you want it back here we can move it again.
  Welcome to PA. Glad you joined us. Looking forward to your build along and the bow that comes from it.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Dauntless on November 27, 2009, 10:21:17 am

As usual I recommend you get started with a bend in the handle style bow because they are a lot easier to tiller and less likely to explode.

Backing red oak with brown paper is of marginal utility.  I managed to break some pretty flimsy kids bows with brown paper as the backing.  Heat treating the belly will just put more pressure on the back.  Reflexing the tips or at the fades is something I'd leave for a shorter bow too.  On top of that it's also a little harder to tiller a reflexed or a reflexed/deflexed bow.  A 10" riser is a little long for my tastes, but then again it's your bow.

You have an exceptional board there, I doubt backing is necessary for a 28" draw and 45 to 50 pounds.

If you really want a riser make sure the bow limbs are full thickness for about half an inch after the fades.  I've had some risers pop off while shooting: I'm surprised it didn't cause the breaking of those bows.  For a bend in the handle bow, 1.5" of width is about my limit of comfort but I have fairly large hands. Then again, Tim Baker, one of the bowmaking gurus has made thousands of red oak bows 72" long and 1.5" wide with bending in the handle.

Don't worry if this bow doesn't have all the elements you wanted: I'm absolutely sure it won't be the only one you make.  Bow making is tremendously addictive.

Cheers,
Your friendly neighbourhood French-Canadian

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: woodstick on November 27, 2009, 12:06:25 pm

well welcome to the clan, show lots of pics with lots of awnsers for us okies.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on November 27, 2009, 12:34:22 pm

wow a friendly neighbourhood french canadian...je ne sais pas qu'il y a un chose comme ca!

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: mrkinsey on November 27, 2009, 01:11:25 pm

that's horrible radius... but ever so true.  Peut-il exister vraiment?

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: youngbowyer33 on November 27, 2009, 09:38:54 pm

je ne pense pas

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 27, 2009, 10:25:40 pm

I suggest a bend in the handle bow too for your first. You can back with silk or linen because it is your first. That looks like a very well chosen board. Good grain. More on my site. There are buildalongs on my site inclusing one with red oak. You can go 68" long and  13/8 in wide. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on November 27, 2009, 11:27:53 pm

Thanks to all who replied to my post, I can tell you'll take good care of me.  Thanks Dauntless for the detailed concerns; I have much to consider.  Jawge, bookmarked your site.  That's an amazing reference you've created there!  The rest of you guys:  Focussez-vous!  Besides, Dauntless wasn't being literal with his sign-off, he was being sarcastic!  Totally in character for a French Canadian!  Bwahahaha just kidding Dauntless.   ;)  It's great to see I have a few fellow Canucks here.  Go Habs!

OK, I best be off for some more reading, thinking, and revising before I start hogging lumber tomorrow.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Dauntless on November 28, 2009, 12:04:02 am

Jawge's site is a great place to have bookmarked.  If you can get your hands on the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles too, it would be a good investment.

Remember to go slowly and don't be afraid to post pics of the tiller here.  A lot of guys here have trained their tillering eyes to the point that it might reflect in their kids.

Get the chips flying,
The only Franco-Manitoban making bows

PS.  Vu les réponses de tout le monde sur la page, on devrait peut-être créer un forum en Français?  Une place pour tous les gentils francophones.   :D

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 28, 2009, 09:27:39 am

Thank you, Dauntless and Zen. Zen, do post pics as you go proceed. Plenty of help available on this site. Jawge

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Eric Krewson on November 28, 2009, 09:56:01 am

Make yourself one of these to help you with your tillering. It is a lot easier to hit target weight if you know exactly where you need to remove wood while tillering.

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047#000000

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on November 28, 2009, 02:47:16 pm

a french thread?  er , ah...

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Mangeur de lard on November 28, 2009, 05:55:36 pm

I think, like stated previously, that backing your board is not absolutely necessary. If you really want to back it, I'd suggest linen cloth. You juste spread some wood glue on the back (enough so there is a small film on the surface) and press your cloth against it. 100% linen is very strong.
Good luck!

À tous les francophones et francophiles de ce monde: vous n'êtes pas seuls. un thread en français serait intéressant ( J'aimerais faire un glossaire des termes traduite: backing, tiller, fadeout et tout le reste)

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Dauntless on November 28, 2009, 08:10:50 pm

I was being sarcastic with the French thread idea.  I guess the written word doesn't convey that very well.   :-X

I'll try and stay on topic from now on.  ;D

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on November 28, 2009, 08:34:16 pm

no i caught the sarcasm, but i'm west coast:  french pas bon.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on November 28, 2009, 08:36:37 pm

mangeur de lard!   what a name

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on November 28, 2009, 10:38:28 pm

OK, I'm back.  Had to get some stuff, and I had to put on snow tires before I did that, then I found a problem under the car that I thought I should fix first... You get the idea.  The biggest technical problem I've been wrestling with is supporting the bow while I work on it.  I'm in an apartment, I have no railing to clamp anything to, I don't want to be taking oak in and out in the cold humid weather.  I finally decided late yesterday to clamp a sturdy board across the kitchen counter and work on that.  Then my friend Eric volunteered some scrap 2 X 10 in case I needed to build a bench or something.  Thanks Eric!  That's when I thought of spreader bar clamps.  Problem solved.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3559_1.jpg)

How can you tell my wife isn't home today?

Anyways, I started roughing out the bow as per the instructions by Sam Harper on poorfolkbows.com.  Thanks Sam!
Thanks to all the excellent advice you guys have been dispensing, I've scaled back my intentions to reflect that I don't have a clue about too many things to screw up that many things at once.   ???  So I've centered the riser (sorry Dauntless, couldn't see shooting this thing without a decent handle), dispensed with the reflex at the fades (really, what was I thinking?), tossed the heat treat idea, and of course the paper backing.  Backing of some sort is still on the table (either silk or linen) as a possibility, and I fantasise about some static reflex at the tips.  We'll see.  Here's the bow as she sits now:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3560_1.jpg)

My assistant Delilah is ever-ready to participate in any venison jerky breaks.  Wife still not home.  ;D

My next task while the glue dries is turning the back of my sturdy floor easel into a tillering tree.  Then Eric's tiller diagnosing tool.  Thanks for that Eric!  Brilliant.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3562_1.jpg)

Thanks again guys, hopefully I'll be back tomorrow.  If the Mrs. hasn't injured me too badly to work. :P

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: gmc on November 28, 2009, 11:11:49 pm

Man this is a great thread, keep going!

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Innocente on November 29, 2009, 01:39:22 am

she's gonna go BALLISTIC when she sees the wood shavings in the kitchen!

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: sailordad on November 29, 2009, 01:43:11 am

just blame it all on the dog ;D

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on November 29, 2009, 08:11:14 pm

Back again.  Thanks gmc, I can use some encouragement.  I was able to clean up before the wife got home, much as I was tempted to blame the dog.  (I'm the man, why should I clean up the kitchen?)  :P  Ultimately I decided that if I overuse the dog excuse, my wife might start to question the origin of certain smells that could otherwise be safely attributed to the hound.

Roughed out the riser now the glue is dry.  Did my best to swoop the riser into the belly so the riser ends could absorb the stresses of the handle trying to bend.  Then I narrowed the handle.  After I did one side and got uneven thickness, I had the brainwave that if I cut troughs with the round side of my rasp, I could tell if the depth was even right across by whether the lines were parallel.  Then I could use the flat side to knock down the remaining peaks.  Definitely helped.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3564_1_1.jpg)

Pleased with myself on that one.  Ok, then when I was pretty much done, I started to examine the discolored line running through the handle area.  It isn't a crack, it just seems to be a plane of hardness.  I decided not to worry about it, but please let me know if I should worry.  Nothing I could do for it either way, I expect.  I have to wonder what scarred the tree like that, though.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3566_1_1.jpg)

I put the "bow" (I'm optimistic) on my easel tree after cutting the nocks, and gave several tentative tugs on the rope.  The right limb had 2 slight hinges, one of which was at the riser.  The left limb was stiffer.  Both limbs had a tendency to hinge at the point where the tapering begins.  No big surprise.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3568_1.jpg)

I marked out some smooth curves off the riser to transfer the stresses back to the limbs in a smooth controlled manner.  Then I rasped some more using the faceting method I read somewhere.  (Sorry I don't remember where so I don't know who to thank here.)   

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3569_1.jpg)

Here's about where I'm at at the moment.  I had to quit here because it was becoming obvious that the cord I was using was having some stretch issues.  I have no way of knowing how far I was flexing the limbs and how far I was stretching the string.  So I have to wait at least until tomorrow when I can get some dacron or something.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3570_1.jpg)

I was already starting to develop "the claw" anyways.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3571_1.jpg)

I might as well spend the next hour watching the Roughriders slaughter the Alouettes.  (The guy in Regina has to taunt the guy in Montreal even if we're both Manitobans at heart.)

Thanks to all who are following this thread, and especial thanks to all who comment.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on November 29, 2009, 08:33:20 pm

you are definitely on the right track man.   Take a lesson from the other thread:  don't cut your arrow shelf too deep.   Also, with a single block add on like you have, it's muy importante to keep the bending forces AWAY from the lamination.   You know how you often see guys do built up handles made of several strips?  It distributes pressure, and is in fact the way to go.  Look at the bows made my pros and the bows made my novices:  that is a difference which you pretty consistently see. 

Keep up the good work, looking good.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: hedgeapple on November 29, 2009, 09:55:23 pm

I'm loving the detail you're putting into this thread.  I'm sure I'm going to learn a thing or two.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: gmc on November 29, 2009, 10:40:16 pm

I agree. You just don't see a bow built in a kitchen very often.

Hedgeapple:
PM Sent

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on November 30, 2009, 09:42:46 pm

My afternoon client decided he wouldn't need power in his garage after all, so I came home and continuted with some slow and painful tillering.  I realized after my last session that I wasn't comfortable with any of the tools I have for this task, so I went to leevalley.com and purchased some cabinet scrapers.  But for now, I use what I have.

I've decided to dispense with both backing and reflex.  I'm just too impatient to get this critter to weight and draw.  Anyways, I got a little more agressive today than yesterday with wood removal, and fairly quickly I got 10" of limb travel with the long string.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3573_1.jpg)

So I braced for disaster.  First time I braced a bow!  I got a bit excited.  Not as excited as I was buying a spool of string, mind you.  $49!!??  What the hell!?

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3574_1.jpg)

Looks pretty good I think.  Not perfect, it's a little stiff in the outer third of the left limb, for example, but pretty even over all.  However...

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3575_1.jpg)

... There is some limb twist.

So now I'm pausing to search on how to deal with this.  I think I know, but I'll read up anyways.  Better safe than pregnant.

...This just in... A new study find that chick flicks suck... Details at 10... Our undercover reporter has discovered the shocking truth:  Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't a bear... He was bald as a cue ball though...

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Innocente on November 30, 2009, 10:12:21 pm

this is your first bow? you are kicking ass man.  keep it up. that propellor twist is a pain in the ass.  i'd tell you how to fix it, but i have to get on the net and re-research it every time it happens to me all over again.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Josh on November 30, 2009, 11:07:26 pm

propellar twist, especially if the bow looses the twist when unstrung, is usually caused from the bow limb being thicker on one side of the limb than the other.  you can fix it by removing wood from the thicker side.  Just remove a little wood at a time and exercise the limbs and check often.  Always make sure to check your thickness from both sides of the limb and this won't happen as often.  Hope this helps!  -josh

ps.  good work so far, just take your time with it and exercise those limbs in between scraping sessions real good to reveal the true tiller as you go.  I think you will end up with a nice one there! 

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: Dauntless on November 30, 2009, 11:33:56 pm

I'd round the corner on the back before pulling it any more.  There's a lot of stress on the corners of flat backs and any splinters that can pop up will.

This is looking pretty stellar for a bow, regardless that it's your first.  You're absolutely right about that left limb needing a couple scrapes.

With those Lee valley cabinet scrapers (with a nice aggressive burr), you'll be breezing through tillering.

Ps.  I lost my faith in the Bombers years ago.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: radius on December 01, 2009, 12:45:36 pm

dude, that's a great first bow, or tenth!  to hell with the carpet!

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: mrkinsey on December 01, 2009, 06:51:44 pm

here here! 

I gotta go with radius, mangeur de lard is one heck of a name.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: zenmonkeyman on December 07, 2009, 02:19:41 am

Back again.  When we left off, I was having some problems with propeller twist.  I was pretty sure I knew how to fix it.  I was wrong.  I scraped off one side.  It got worse.  I scraped off the other side.  It got better.  I scraped more off that side.  It got worse.  WTF!  I now believe that a weak side near the handle will pull the whole limb toward it, which naturally produces a twist.  But somewhere towards the nock, the compression is more perpendicular than longitudinal, so a weak side tends to twist the tips in the opposite direction.  This means that to fix a twist it may be necessary to scrape one side near the handle and the other side near the nock.  Anyways, with my trial and error messing around, I ended up stuck with this.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3591_1.jpg)

Oh, and while I was obsessing about twist, the tiller went all to hell on me, and my 45-48# bow became 40# @ 29".  And not in a pretty fashion!

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3606_1.jpg)

So, figuring I'm not too much to look at anyways, I thought I'd risk drawing the beast myself.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3609_1.jpg)

And then I checked the string follow.

(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3611_1.jpg)

Pretty ghastly.

So now I have a bow with some mistakes, I'm wondering about experimenting with some fixes.  I'm thinking again about heat treating the belly some, and backing with silk to compensate for the increased tension.  That would gain me some of my draw weight back again.  I'm not sure if there's much I can do about the propeller twist though.  I don't suppose a little recurve would help any?  I may as well go double or nothing on this project, there's no sense in limiting myself to what I've got when there's so much more to learn!  Any advice you guys have for moving forward is greatly appreciated. 

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: OldBow on December 07, 2009, 01:39:24 pm

This is off to a very good start. Be sure to give me a "heads up" when you decide its finished and then it will be entered into BOM fun.

Title: Re: From lurker to red oak board groan-along.
Post by: makenzie71 on December 07, 2009, 01:47:42 pm

The twist in the limb when drawn just makes me go ewwww...but sometimes stuff like that turn out to be pure aesthetic.  Performance is the bottom line, to me.

I wouldn't worry about that much follow...2.5" isn't a whole lot.  While I believe it has some drawbacks, I've reduced my set on two of my old red oak bows by clamping them down in a brace and tempering the belly with a blow torch.  I just oiled the lumber (miniral oil), let it soak for just a moment, then I held the torch in one area long enough to just start browning the wood.  About an hour of this and my 70lb longbow was set free...my 50lb bow went into reflex, actually.