Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: rudderbows on December 12, 2009, 02:49:56 am
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I spoke with Marlon tonight about the 250 pounder. he had some very good info and insight about heavy bows from an archers perspective. Seems a person who shoots a bow is under compression normall BUT that is why when they shoot a seriously heavy bow there is allot more compression and issues arrise from it. . This means the archer has to reach out alot farther to push against the compression necissary for a full draw at 30-31 32 33 etc. He explained it allot better than I am right now. . he thought that numbers around 200 maybe slightly more and maybe slightly less were just about what flesh and bone can take and not much more no matter how strong an archer was. never occured to mem that the muscles and bone joints had limitations like that from compression. . I may end up shooting te 250 pounder from a mechanical device. Marlon was very gracious to start working up to a 200 pound Boo backed ipe bow I am going to attempt to build for him,. I would really love to see an arrow fly from a really big bow.
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I understand what he's saying but I don't think that drawing a 250# bow is in the realm of impossibility. I could be wrong but I'd like to find out more about the amount of force muscles and bone can take. If my memory is correct I believe that an average adult femur can withstand up to 2000# of force.
Also I understand if you leave me out rudderbows. ;)
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I understand what he's saying but I don't think that drawing a 250# bow is in the realm of impossibility. I could be wrong but I'd like to find out more about the amount of force muscles and bone can take. If my memory is correct I believe that an average adult femur can withstand up to 2000# of force.
Also I understand if you leave me out rudderbows. ;)
True - but probably not relevant. Long bones are designed to take loads along their long axis and are strong that way but markedly weak when exposed to much smaller loads across the long axis - thats why they break in that situation. The issue with drawing bows really is one of leverage and force multiplication with the key question being 'what can the rotators of the shoulder handle at their points of insertion when drawing really heavy bows?'. These muscles arise from the scapula directly and that in turn is stabilised by muscles arising from the spinous processes of the vertebrae. Picture a shortish muscle rotating the proximal end of a long lever like the humerus and you get some idea of the mechanical disadvantage that these muscles are under. The forces at work drawing 40lb bows are said to be huge (I have them somewhere and I'll look them up). I very much suspect that Marlon is right in thinking that 200lb bows or so would provide in or about the physiological limit where the moorings of the tendon insertions would tear free from their bony anchor.
Chris
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That makes sense. I mean there has to be a limit eventually to what the body can take. I guess I'd need to see some information about it before I really truly believe that 200#'s is the limit but I also understand that I'm stubborn and really want to think the human body is capable of much more. I mean even though the mechanical forces around the rotator cuff are at a disadvantage wouldn't stresses of around 1000# for a bench press cause a failure for those muscles involved? I'm not saying you guy are wrong, in fact you're probably right, I just don't want to believe it. ;)
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Ryan, I fully intend on following through with sending a heavy duty bow to you. I appreciate your willingness to give it a try. Between you and Marlon I am betting we will learn allot here. I am already learning allot.
I understand what he's saying but I don't think that drawing a 250# bow is in the realm of impossibility. I could be wrong but I'd like to find out more about the amount of force muscles and bone can take. If my memory is correct I believe that an average adult femur can withstand up to 2000# of force.
Also I understand if you leave me out rudderbows. ;)
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Cool. Well this is all I've been thinking about for the past couple days so I'm really excited. Hopefully when I get home I can finish up that bow I was making and get started on something heavier that what I usually pull.
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The heavier the bow more compression factor increaseses. Infact the world record for bench is 715 raw. And the record for a bench useing a special suit shirt is 1105 it may be a slight higher. Due to a special suit.
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I see. So I'll just have to use something like that when I try. ;D
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Ryan you don't know me I'm very very strong I can bench press 500# raw. I shoulder press 325 for reps seated and behined the neck. I really think 200# bow will defeat me in all onestly. It takes a special huge strong human beyond my strength. So a 250# bow you would need a human well over 6 feet tall and weight 350 very very very strong pound for pound. There's a handfull of archers pulling there bodyweight as jaro, Steve Stratton, Simon standly the smaller the person the stronger they are pound for pound. Than a person who weights 350#. Cheers Marlon
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Alright alright. Well then I think for me this will turn into a test to see how much I can muster. I trust your word Marlon and I think if anything I'd just like to work up to the heaviest bow I can without injury. What is the heaviest bow you've pulled? I saw your youtube video of you pulling that 120# bow really easily.
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Ryan the most I pulled was a hill type longbow 180# @27" the bow was 67" long. I was going for the record. This was 12 years ago. The heard Chief Aj pulled a 200# bow. I said forget it. He didn't pull. Mark has the record he truly pulled 200# warbow. I don't have the intention or motivation or suffient strength to break the record. I serious sure I won't make it to 200# if I'm lucky I might hit 185# still it's a long shot. Yes I feel old.
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Mark Stretton had to do a fair amount of training on a special rig to be able to pull the 200lb bow and he has had some injury problems since and this was after many years of pulling heavy warbows.
Making the bow will just be part of this. The training will be as much a part. Trying to go in way over the top at 25% over the record seems strange! Trying to match the record would be very difficult!
I can't see that a 1.5inch wide has any chance of reaching the desired weight. Would an 80 inch long 3/4 inch wide bow make 125lb? No. So how can two of them (a 1.5 inch wide bow) reach 250lb?
Mark in England
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Mark a warbow of 250# I would have to agree it would need to be longer than 80" I would say 82" to 86" I would hate to see it blow up it would kill some one.
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Ryan the most I pulled was a hill type longbow 180# @27" the bow was 67" long. I was going for the record. This was 12 years ago. The heard Chief Aj pulled a 200# bow. I said forget it. He didn't pull. Mark has the record he truly pulled 200# warbow. I don't have the intention or motivation or suffient strength to break the record. I serious sure I won't make it to 200# if I'm lucky I might hit 185# still it's a long shot. Yes I feel old.
Marlon
Wasn't that Bamboo backed Bubinga I built for you a few years ago about 175#?
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Mark yes it was very close to the weight. I pm you mark
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Rudderbows,
I remain interested in how such a narrow bow will reach the weight you want. This might be possible just with Ipe/Boo or Ipe/Hickory but is it possible with Hickory/Hickory?
I don't claim much experience with heavy bows having made them up to 120lb or so but I have found that early high draw weight makes heavier bows harder to pull. A progressive build in weight can be managed better, with weight building in the last six inches or so of draw. A long straight bow helps, perhaps with a degree of set to help keep early draw weight low so you can get it past the "wall". This would perhaps rule out a perry reflex effect increasing the weight and also increasing the early draw weight.
Fancy answering this?
Mark in England
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I haven't built any really heavy bows but I understand what you guys are saying about how this bow needs to be wider to even think about getting to this weight. Now if you try to make a bow this heavy from boo and ipe wouldn't those be the best materials to work with? I'm just thinking that since you don't want to make this bow too much wider that bamboo has enough tensile strength and ipe has enough compressive strength for this bow to be thicker? I don't have any experience with bbi bows but from what I hear bamboo is pretty much the strongest thing you're gonna back a bow with while ipe is equal in its compressive properties. I realize that there must be some flaw in my thinking since you guys haven't said much about just having a thicker cross section. I understand that hickory couldn't probably take the compressive forces of a bow this extreme but why not bbi?
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Ryoon,
I reckon that ipe/boo at about 2 inches wide and somewhere over 80 inches long glued up straight should be a good start to get 200lb plus in as manageable a way as possible.
If it isn't to be drawn by a human but by a machine then it could be made less wide and some perry reflex glued in for sheer performance.
The draw force curve would be interesting to see if the bow is made.
Mark in England
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Mark, I fully intend on taking your advice to heart about width and Marlons advice about length. One issue I am concerned about is someone getting hurt. I do not want that to happen AT ALL. Bow stability is important. I think different materials will require different measurements. the thing that I can afford to do is experiment with the different materials on the crank. If it blows on the crank it will miss everyone including myself and employee and the shop Dogs because I am going to have a couple pieces of plywood set up on each side of the crank. . . haha;/. . Anyways I fully intend on making it a wider and longer. I also know that an Englsih style rounded belly can bend farther than a flat belly before breaking. My buddy Phil tried some experiments some time ago with this. He simply made flat bows and english style bows and decided to pull them on a pulley system untill they broke. He discovered that rounded bellied bows go 15% to 20% farther before snapping. Maybe thats why the English bowyers made them with rounded bellies. More stable perhaps.
Rudderbows,
I remain interested in how such a narrow bow will reach the weight you want. This might be possible just with Ipe/Boo or Ipe/Hickory but is it possible with Hickory/Hickory?
I don't claim much experience with heavy bows having made them up to 120lb or so but I have found that early high draw weight makes heavier bows harder to pull. A progressive build in weight can be managed better, with weight building in the last six inches or so of draw. A long straight bow helps, perhaps with a degree of set to help keep early draw weight low so you can get it past the "wall". This would perhaps rule out a perry reflex effect increasing the weight and also increasing the early draw weight.
Fancy answering this?
Mark in England
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One route to this might be to make an 84 inch 125lb bow. From this you can almost just double the width to get what would be needed for 250lbs. Initially doubled up it would be somewhat over strength but basically in the right ball park so all you need to do is reduce the depth a little which will make it even safer than the 125lb bow was. Experimenting at 125lbs might be a little more manageable and less risky but should give a really useful steer on what is needed for the heavier bow.
Regards,
Mark in England
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I'd make it 2.75" wide, 5/16th" boo backing,and I would r/d with a good bit of deflex just outside the grip.
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Its going to be a little bit tricky because i would like to meet or exceed the English 8 to 5 rule on this thing. When I show an American archer a 80" warbow they trip on the idea. Especially the guys who are used to shooting a seriously short bow. However, the english war bow concept had very little to do with hunting and had everything to do with heavy flight shooting in the field. (My buddy Magen wanted to come over here sometime form Holland and hunt wild Hogs with an english warbow of 120 pounds. ) I will keep you posted on results. This next weekend are the first glue ups for the big monster bow. Cant wait to finish the week ion the shop to give it a try.
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Its going to be a little bit tricky because i would like to meet or exceed the English 8 to 5 rule on this thing. When I show an American archer a 80" warbow they trip on the idea. Especially the guys who are used to shooting a seriously short bow. However, the english war bow concept had very little to do with hunting and had everything to do with heavy flight shooting in the field. (My buddy Magen wanted to come over here sometime form Holland and hunt wild Hogs with an english warbow of 120 pounds. ) I will keep you posted on results. This next weekend are the first glue ups for the big monster bow. Cant wait to finish the week ion the shop to give it a try.
Noone knows what bows were used for hunting in England during the middle ages as no bows exist anymore. However the size of the sockets for big hunting broadheads show that the arrow shafts were thick, therefore the bows were heavy in draw-weight since its difficult to shoot arrows weighing more than 100g and with half-inch shafts from bows that draw less than 100lb.
Dave
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I don't think 2" wide would be necessary for a 200# BBIPE. I would start at 1 3/4" wide by about 1" thick for the IPE with a Bamboo backing of at least 1/4" thick, a bit more thickness for each part wouldn't hurt. That would give a thickness of at least 1 1/4" and that should be plenty. Bracing these monsters for the first time is where it becomes real tricky because you need to make them way over target weight
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I think I'd use a loose string on the tiller (on stringing nocks) and when its drawn down enough have a brave and well insured assistant place a shorter string on the actual nocks. I'd also tiller it with temporary horn rather than self nocks. Good luck!
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Bubinga is good for that? wow
Good project, will looking for how it goes! It will be a real monster shure ;D
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I have heard different reports on Bubinga. It is pretty but I have heard some say it is brittle and perhaps not best for a failry deep bow section.
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Wow, I am late as all get out on this post, but here goes. Back to the subject of strength, drawing a bow balances the pushing and pulling force. I see many guys out there benching 500# and more, which is 250#/arm, but I don't see anyone doing dumbell rows with 250#. Maybe some pros do, but we don't go to the same gyms, so I couldn't say for sure. A big difference between gym exercises and archery, as well, is the pressure that is applied across the body. I have had issues for the past 8 months or so with the inside joint of my right collarbone, possibly arthritis, and I really notice that pressure now. Bench-press and pushups hurt a little, but drawing my 70# bow is downright excruciating. >:(
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Interesting that the flat bows blew before the longbow sectioned bows. I might think that this was perhaps due to failure in tension at the cross section corners.
Was this the case?
Regarding the question of hunting bow styles and weights, I believe there is some evidence for "flat" or broad bows for hunting.
Richard Wadge for one refers this distinction in "Arrowstorm" and also I believe cites Gaston Phoebus.
But the extremes of draw-weight would possibly not be regarded as necessary for a hunting bow, though undoubtedly what a competent forester/archer of the time would regard as "easy" might no doubt exceed what many of today's bowhunters would consider practical.
Rod.
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I recall reading something in TBB4 about using a rounded belly for some of the weak in tension woods. The rounded belly would take more set than a square cross section, thus putting the back under less strain. It likely works the same for a superior wood in a highly strained pattern, like a heavy war bow, since superior wood will usually fail in tension before it fails in compression.
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Two hundred and fifty pounds, holy smoke!
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Rudderbows,
its been 7 weeks since we last heard from you on this attempt. Have you given up?
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"Have you given up?"
That's nice. I've been keeping in touch with him seeing as how we're working on this together. I don't know if he's attempted to make the 250#er yet but I do know he said its going to be easier than you guys think.
Skeptics: Try and make one to see for yourself.
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I can't wait to see this 250#er, and I can't wait to see you shooting it. After all, it'll be a new world record.
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Didn't say I could, just said I'd try. ;D
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250# draw bow????
Wow! I thought I was pushing this with my 82# recurve.
Very impressive.
I know this may sound stupid on my part, but, what in the heck do you shoot with such a bow, fletched shovel handles???
Seriously, a brief discussion of the arrows used along with what Spline such an arrow would have is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Steve
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ryoon4690,
Why you are getting involved with answering a question directed at someone else? On December 14th Rudderbows stated "This next weekend are the first glue ups for the big monster bow. Cant wait to finish the week ion the shop to give it a try." and I have been waiting for the results but have only heard silence.
Contrary to your implication I believe a 250 lb bow can be made, of course it can if you make it long and wide enough, I just do not believe it can be pulled by one man.
If as you claim "we're working on this together" why do you not know what he is doing? If you are working on it what precisely are you doing?
By the way If one is skeptical about the possibility of such a bow why would one attempt to build one, it would be illogical.
Craig.
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Well he doesn't have a deadline so I just thought the way you asked was a little rude but I could have misinterpreted. I mean we don't have any face to face interaction anymore with computers so it's kind of killing human contact.
Well as I said earlier, I told rudderbows that I would try and draw the bow once he made it. So what he did was make me a work up bow so I can get my strength up for drawing this bow. I've been in touch with him about this but anything he chooses to tell me is what I know. I don't ask because we're all busy folks and I doubt he wants me nagging on him about how this is going.
I've been making weekly videos of my progress if you want to see. http://www.youtube.com/user/ryoonit
And lets say there are two people with different ideas. One thinks that one can build a 250#er, the other thinks it can't be done. Doesn't it make more sense to make an attempt and prove it can't be done rather than not attempt it at all and still question it in ones mind? I'm actually thinking about making one of these my self when I get the chance. ;D
Anyways, I want to see what's going on as much as you guys but when he does it he does it.
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ryoon... you're missing the point. I'm sure a 1000# bow could be made, but no human alive could shoot it. Mark Stretton holds the current world record of 200#, and that's at a proper 32'' draw length. He has spent YEARS gettng to that point. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to think you're going to be able to shoot a 250# bow after a few months?? And I'm talking about shooting it properly... at 30-32" of draw.
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250# draw bow????
Wow! I thought I was pushing this with my 82# recurve.
Very impressive.
I know this may sound stupid on my part, but, what in the heck do you shoot with such a bow, fletched shovel handles???
Seriously, a brief discussion of the arrows used along with what Spline such an arrow would have is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Steve
Steve... google english warbow society. They have arrow specs for these heavy bows on their website.
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Well I can't wait to see that 1000# bow. JK. I don't think thats the point though. I think 1: It will be fun to make a bow that heavy and 2: If anyone could draw it that would be amazing. I never said I thought I could draw it. And if it takes years to do it then so be it. I'm almost 20. Lets talk in ten years. :D
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ryoon... I watched your youtube videos. You're drawing a 110# bow about 24 or 25". You have 140# and about 6-8" to go. I truly wish you luck, son. I feel truly satisfied that the limit of human ability is about 200#, with a lifetime of getting there. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant thinking you'll break the current world record by 20% after only a few months?
I currently shoot what you're pulling (110#), but to 32", not 25". I have been shooting my entire life. I think it very unrealistic to presume I could pull off what you're claiming. Give this some thought, before you hurt yourself.
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Well the bow is 110#@28" and 149#@33". I've drawn a 120#@32" bow to 32" but I think that just because the weight is the same doesn't mean that I can necessarily draw this bow back to where it's 120# just because of the forces at play. I'm not saying that the human limit isn't 200#. I'm just saying lets try and find out with out killing ourselves. Again, I never said I would get there, and never said I would get there after a few months. I simply want to draw the heaviest bow I can without hurting myself. But heck, 110#@32" is pretty good for an old man adb. JK ;)
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Can you post some pics of you drawing this 120# bow at 32" please? Why can't you draw the 110# bow to 32" on youtube? Show us. And yes, perhaps I'm an old man, with several children older than yourself, so don't be cheeky. With age comes realism and wisdom. ;) I think perhaps the enthusiasm and bravado of youth are getting the better of you.
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No have not given up at all. I made a 185 at 28" so far and didnt draw it past 29 so I am not sure what weight it is at 32. I dont think it will be a challenge to finish the 250 pounder. I cant even shoot an 80 pounder let alone 250. Not sure if anyone will be able to master the 250 beast. I will be sending Marlon his bow in about 10 days from today.
The first bow for Ryan was about 170-180 at 32" but we talked about it and it was not reasonable for him to work up to it without a lighter bow which is what I sent him. Ryan has been working up on the bow he has form us now and each week has showed improvement. this is kinda dangerous for Ryan and has be worked up slowely. Its not worth anyone getting hurt, No need to rush Ryan. i will check out the You tube video of the dutch warbow draw like you said. its interesting that there is alot more to technique than meets the eye.
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Craig, I did get the glue ups done. they are huge. 80" by 1 1/2 by 1 1/2" thick. I made a 180 pounder out of a different 76" boo hickory and found that I still could have achieved the a bigger bow from the same size stave because I cut off too much wood to begin with for the stave. . That one was made of bamboo backed Hickory, . The 4 I glued up for the big beast : two are boo on hickory and the other two are boo on Ipe. After making 180-pounders with 76" boo hickory I am sure the 80" bows will work for something even bigger. I dont get a chance to come back here as often as I would like because we are swamped with work. However, dont take that as a failure. I always keep my word. If I outright fail at the 250 beast bow I will eat some crow for you gents and tell you. But after making a few other warbows at 180 I am certian I can do it.
ryoon4690,
Why you are getting involved with answering a question directed at someone else? On December 14th Rudderbows stated "This next weekend are the first glue ups for the big monster bow. Cant wait to finish the week ion the shop to give it a try." and I have been waiting for the results but have only heard silence.
Contrary to your implication I believe a 250 lb bow can be made, of course it can if you make it long and wide enough, I just do not believe it can be pulled by one man.
If as you claim "we're working on this together" why do you not know what he is doing? If you are working on it what precisely are you doing?
By the way If one is skeptical about the possibility of such a bow why would one attempt to build one, it would be illogical.
Craig.
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Well I don't own that bow. I drew it at MOJam last summer. The bow I'm working with again is 110#@28". It's 149#@32". I actually took it out about an hour ago and was getting some better distance on it. I think I can get it back better if I keep my bow arm straight with my body. Again adb I'm just doing this to have fun. If I never draw 110# I would be fine with it. I'm just giving it my all. Imagine I'm just an enthusiastic warbow shooter who wants to draw as heavy a bow as I can. That's what I'm doing. If I ever made it to 250# then I'd shoot rudderbow's bow. That's all. I'm not saying it's going to happen. Just saying if it did, I'd shoot his bow. :)
Rudderbows - Good to hear that. I can't wait to see it. ;D
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Well here's something. This is a pic of me just a little bit ago drawing the bow rudderbows made me. I still need to work on straightening out my arm and shoulders to get them perpendicular to the bow. My drawing arm feels great doing this. Not overstrained at all but just a little tired just like working out any other muscle in the gym. I'm not going to say what I think the draw length is but here are the increments so you guys can guess what I'm pulling. Cheers!
110@28
118@29
125@30
133@31
142@32
149@33
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/Picture1.png)
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250# draw bow????
Thanks in advance,
Steve
Steve... google english warbow society. They have arrow specs for these heavy bows on their website.
Thanks, I'll do that.
Steve
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Can you make an arrow with inch marks painted black white so we can see what you are pulling.
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Yes, ryoon, you need to draw the bow with an arrow shaft on it. That way you'll be able to tell where you're at. If I had to guess, I'd say you're drawing about 27-28". So, maybe about 100#, if the bow's draw weight is accurate. You're bent forward at the waist and you're tipping your head forward, all things to make it look like you're getting more draw length than you actually are. You're also drawing the string with your entire hand (all four fingers), not the normal three of modern times, or just two fingers of medieval archers. You need to "shoot in the bow", using your entire body, not just your arms (as you're doing).
This is what shooting in the bow looks like:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I am cetainly no expert, or claim to be. Here I am, shooting a 90#@32" yew self warbow. That's a 31.5" shaft, bye the way (that's measuring from the valley of the nock, to the base of the head). I can pull 110#, but this takes some serious patience... years of practice.
ryoon, you're truly fooling yourself, and I ecourage you to take caution before you seriously hurt yourself. Your technque is flawed, and before you do your young body some lasting harm, SLOW DOWN. This isn't about macho young men proving their toughness. Like most things that are difficult, it takes time and patience to master. The tendons in your hand, wrist and arm all need time to strengthen and develop. This happens over a period of years, not a few months.
Do you really think rudderbows cares if you hurt yourself?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I do understand my form is flawed and that's something I need to work on. As with anything, heavier weight is going to hurt form. I've spent countless hours watching videos of warbow shooters and looking at pics. I understand your concern adb but I'm fine. You can't do anything to stop me. And I know rudderbows cares about my well being. He's a great guy and I don't know who he doesn't care about. He's sending me some proper arrows so I'll get some on the string soon. CAN'T WAIT! ;D
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adb,
I would give up mate, he will not listen. Remember with youth comes both rashness and a belief in ones indestructibility, let us hope that he does not live to regret his folly.
Rudderbows
Would prefer it if you managed to keep us better informed of the progress.
Craig.
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You'll get to a point when you will get so frustrated that you will give up, and untill then good luck.
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If you want to get stronger, a Bowflex exercise machine would be safer.
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I do understand my form is flawed and that's something I need to work on. As with anything, heavier weight is going to hurt form. I've spent countless hours watching videos of warbow shooters and looking at pics. I understand your concern adb but I'm fine. You can't do anything to stop me. And I know rudderbows cares about my well being. He's a great guy and I don't know who he doesn't care about. He's sending me some proper arrows so I'll get some on the string soon. CAN'T WAIT! ;D
Well, that's where your thinking is flawed... good form should come BEFORE more weight. No, I can't do a thing to stop you, why would I try? I am trying to offer you some advice... take it, or leave it.
One last thing... ask Jim if he's willing to cover the cost of your surgery, if you do hurt yourself.
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I understand that but this bow is what I have to work with. If you're that concerned then send me a bow that's lighter and I'll work up with that. I don't know why there's so much animosity in this thread. I feel like you guys are mad at me :'(. I feel like things would sound different if I had made this bow myself and just explained that I wanted to work up to shooting it (which is exactly what I'm doing minus the part where I made the bow). If it makes you guys happier, I do plan on finishing up a warbow I started. Hopefully it will turn out around 120@32. I do feel that form is important plus getting it back all the way will help utilize the entire muscle group involved by getting a full extension.
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Not mad at you, ryoon, just trying to get you to think clearly and not hurt yourself. Shooting heavy bows is not a lark, or a fool's errand. And no, I'm not sending you a bow... you can make your own like everyone else. As you'll find out, getting even a 120# bow "all the way back" is not easy, never mind 250#. When it comes to shooting 100+# bows, form is everything. Be realistic.
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Okay. I know it's not a lark. I'm taking this very seriously. I understand that it can be easy to hurt yourself when drawing heavy poundage. Right now drawing this bow I'm not over straining myself. I just want to work up to heavier draw weights. Maybe I need to start lower if that's really what you mean. I think the argument here is that if I'm going to try and work up to heavier weight's I shouldn't just jump up to a bow like this? When Jim said he was sending me a bow I thought that this weight would be manageable so this is what I'm working with. Maybe for the sake of getting form right, which I do understand is vitally important, I should go a little lighter.
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Finally, the light has come on. ;D
Get yourself an 80-90#@32" bow. Full compass tiller, >76" ntn. Start there, and master that first, with good form. Instead of just pulling these bows, you need to go and actually shoot them. It'll help to practice dry pulling, but shooting is better. Can you get outside and shoot where you live?
Remember... practice doesn't always make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect.
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Well I do have an 80#@32" bow I have mastered that's why I have that other bow started on. I really wish I could go out and shoot but I can't here at school. I may be able to shoot at home on the weekends but it may just be at a target instead of the sky. :(
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Would you e willing to show us some pics of you drawing your 80# bow to 32"?
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I'll try and take some this weekend. I never posted it due to a less than perfect tiller, a lot deep compression fractures, large set, and massive tips. Its a hickory backed zebra wood with a purple heart core. The hickory backing and purpleheart core together are .5" so I don't worry about the compression fractures on the belly. It was an experiment and I learned that zebra wood is not good for bows with rounded bellys and heavy weight. I've shot this thing a lot so I don't worry about it breaking at all. Not the best bow I've made but I'll try and get some pics.
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adb, I read your post on the last page. You said you draw the bow with your entire hand, all 4 fingers (sounded kinda funny when I read it first, lol :p)
the guy on the picture below is drawing the bow with 3 fingers. So do I, when I shoot my 100#+ bows. The little finger doesn't really make it more pleasant. A good glove works better ;)
the good thing about drawing to the ear is that you automatically put your body into the bow. Most 'new' guys try to draw to the cheek and find it impossible to draw any further. A few 'dryruns' with a nice 34+ shaft will do some good. You might draw an one inch+ less when shooting the real bow, compared to the 'dryrun'.
goodluck with the 250# rudderbows, it's gonna be hard.
I'd go for 2" x 78" with a slightly (1 1/2") narrowed and thickened handle for comfort (semibending).
Nick
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nickf ,
I suggest you look at both the post by adb and the photo offered by ryoon again.
1, Adb says that ryoon is pulling with all his hand not that he himself does so. As you can see from this quote: "You're also drawing the string with your entire hand (all four fingers), not the normal three of modern times, or just two fingers of medieval archers"
2. the still on post 47 clearly shows a 4 finger hold, look closely you can count the knuckles. Ryoon has put up a new video on utube, in this he is holding using 3 fingers but that was not what he was doing in the previous video.
Craig
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Ok guys I get it! 4 fingers bad 3 fingers good! Geez! Can a guy get a break? ::) I watched my other videos and I'm drawing with 3 fingers in them. You can clearly see that my pinky finger is outside of the moccasin. That pic must have been a freak occurrence. I got the arrows Jim sent me today so I'll probably make a video sometime this week showing me drawing with them (no shooting till the weekend). Not right now though. I'm a little sore. ;D
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I have been looking at this post with some interest and there has been some interesting things said for and against it.
I think that it would be great to see what a single piece of Hickory could withstand in a bow and good luck with making it, I look forward to seeing it.
With regards shooting it...well I doubt there is anyone who could draw it to the full 32", The compressive forces on the body would be immense and could be harmfull if the person had not trained specifically for it.
With regards getting the draw length up to 32", well that on its own would be good to see, I am very good friends with Mark Stretton and drawing thatr 200# bow nearly killed him and very nearly stopped him shooting full stop.
Ryoon...To you I would say take it slowly, you may have the muscle strength to move a 120 bow to your chin with just the strength in your arms, but that is where things get difficult as unless you are 4' wide at the shoulders you will need to rotate your shoulder to gain the 32" draw length, this puts massive stress on the shoulder joint, Also the bow arm, You suggested that you need to straighten your arm to get the draw length...well I'm afraid that is the worst thing you can do as you are then in a situation where you are placing all of the load on the elbow joint on your bow arm and you will destroy your elbow joint very quickly...result never shoot again.
The other thing you need to take into consideration is your wrist tendon strength, you may have strong arm muscles but the tendons in your wrist on the drawing hand will need many years of repeated practice to strengthen to the point you dont snap them.
I'm not trying to be too negative here but just wanted to point out that these heavy bows can do a lot of damage to your body if you dont take it slow.
Here is a picture of me shooting a 120# bow, you will see the bow arm is not straight and I am drawing to 32", as I am not wide across the shoulders I have to rotate my shoulder blade to the extreme. Anyway I wish you luck with your attempts and be careful.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/Steve120lb.jpg)
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adb, I read your post on the last page. You said you draw the bow with your entire hand, all 4 fingers (sounded kinda funny when I read it first, lol :p)
No mate, you read my post wrong! I said that ryoon was drawing the bow in the picture he posted with all four fingers, which is incorrect. Today, we use mostly 3 fingers to draw, and in medieval times, I believe they just used 2.
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Thanks, Steve, for making your reply. I sure hope ryoon will listen to you. It's been rather frustrating trying to convince him that eventally, if he continues on his present course, he will injure himself.
ryoon... you listening? Take Steve's advice... he knows what he's talking about.
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Yeah yeah adb.
Thanks for the advice Steve. I don't think I'm over straining myself but I do think it will be good to work at a lower weight for form and keep working on strength with this current bow. I promise I won't push myself to the point of injury. I'm not trying to draw this bow all the way. Just drawing it where I can without hurting myself while still working on strength. Essentially working out with this bow. How did you work up to heavier draw weights?
I love you guys. ;D
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Yeah yeah adb.
Thanks for the advice Steve. I don't think I'm over straining myself but I do think it will be good to work at a lower weight for form and keep working on strength with this current bow. I promise I won't push myself to the point of injury. I'm not trying to draw this bow all the way. Just drawing it where I can without hurting myself while still working on strength. Essentially working out with this bow. How did you work up to heavier draw weights?
I love you guys. ;D
Thats exactly it Ryoon, work on a lighter weight bow untill you have got the technique, then its just a case of repeatedly heavier bows, shooting each one untill you can shoot it with relative ease and with the correct technique, then move up the weight, increments of 5lb can be massive once you get over 100#.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Steve
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You will notice that Steve is not humping up his front shoulder.
This is what it should look like when you are in command of the bow and not struggling to support the weight.
I remember running into Mark at Ryton and having a conversation about that 200lb bow.
I definitely got the impression that it is not something that even he would care to make a habit of doing.
Rod.
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Well , round one on the Big Bow. I took a video of this and I hope I can get it on you tube soon. My computer is wierd so I may have to send the the Chip to my friend and let him put it on you tube for us..
Anyways, round one was easy. I used the most stable platform we have available here, just simple bamboo backed hickory. It is a full 80" in length and pulls a steady 225 @34" using a boat crank. It bounces up to 230 at 35 ,but, the scale is jumpy so I cannot really rely on it. It was steady at 225@34. It is massive in the hand and is about 1 1'2" wide at mid section tapering to 7/8" wide at the tips. Its fairly thick. Feels more like a baseball bat than a bow. I cant imagine how it would feel to shoot the thing!
What I learned was some good stuff. The fibers stretch out allot on these Big bows and accounts for allot more draw weight drop than on more normal weights during tillering. What I mean is that on a typical wood bow draw weight is reduced by reducing thickness as well as fiber stretching. Fiber stretching can account for I am guessing anywhere from 5 to 15% of the total weight loss. BUT, on these Big bows the fiber stretching accounts for allot more. When this bow was first drawn back it went to 255 at 34". Than on the second and third draw it dropped all on its own to 225. This means that if we want to achieve a full steady 250 pounds we have to start out on a stave that is at least another 1/8" to 1/4" thicker than this one OR just switch to Ipe as a belly core and try that. When we glued up the original staves for this I glued two with bamboo backed hickory and two with bamboo backed Ipe all 80" in length. this one is just slightly above 1 1/4" thick in the center and about a hair or two less than an inch at the tips.
Measurements are deceptive though because each piece of wood has its own density.
Off to another bow stave soon. As soon as I can get my computer to cooperate with you tube I will get it posted so you guys can see the scale and set up.
By the way: I would really like to extend a serious thanks to you guys for helping Ryan with advice. he is a motivated , good college boy studying medicine no less. He volunteered for this because he has a mind to achieve things others cannot do and is studying a field that will help the world. hats off to RYAN! ;D.
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Jim,
Thanks for the update. I very much look forward to seeing some pictures or video. This is very interesting.
How much set has the bow taken? Did you break one along the way, or did the first one work out?
I'm also very interested in seeing your tiller tree set up. It must be massive.
I'm still not sure what the point of all this is... building a bow nobody can shoot... but it's still fascinating to push the limits, and you're certainly doing that!!
Also, I'd encourage you to continue to support Ryan, but in a realistic way, which won't lead him to hurting himself. I'd hate to see a young fella full of pi$$ & vinegar doing himself lasting harm.
Cheers, Adam.
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So far none have broken on this project. There are 3 more stave's set aside for this.
If I put the tips down on the floor with the belly side down and backside upward, measuring from dead center from the floor to the back of the bamboo it is 3" right on the nose after the bow has been unstrung for over 3 hours. I didn't measure it when it came right off of the tillering tree. Its actually not a tillering tree as most folks would think. its a 11 foot tall wood monstrosity with a thick piece of wood that reaches up 11 feet. Its got a manual boat crank set at the far end. It will soon be replaced with an electric winch good for 440 pounds and an electric switch instead of a hand crank.
Ryan is a smart young man and we have talked about safety and limitations more than once. He has indicated that he knows it is not prudent to push past limits that are unreasonable and unsafe. I have outright told him it is not worth a lifelong injury and he has agreed. . We both believe that if this is done properly he will be able to achieve something. What exactly that achievement will be we do not know. Its OK if he cannot get past his limits. Thats why we are starting on a smaller bow of 130 pounds to 142. 130 is actually a BIG bow and even if he never gets past that bow he did really good. Heck I cant even pull 75 pounds comfortably. I would have to say he has done a tremendous job in listening to Steve and a few others about technique as well as learning from some other You tube video's. Ryan ( I know you are listening ole man) However, he is willing to see what he can do in a safe manner and has assured me that he will practice safety as well as apply himself.
Here is a list of reasons to build this bow. I am sure someone , somewhere has done this before and I am not the first.
1 to learn what the wood does when it is seriously stressed out like that
(The info could be valuable for others wanting to build them as well as for myself)
2 Just plain curiosity
3. I think, I know I can do this
4 why does a man climb a mountain? because it is there
5 just for fun
6 I am Irish and Steve is English.
7 I am near 50 years old
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So far none have broken on this project. There are 3 more stave's set aside for this.
If I put the tips down on the floor with the belly side down and backside upward, measuring from dead center from the floor to the back of the bamboo it is 3" right on the nose after the bow has been unstrung for over 3 hours. I didn't measure it when it came right off of the tillering tree. Its actually not a tillering tree as most folks would think. its a 11 foot tall wood monstrosity with a thick piece of wood that reaches up 11 feet. Its got a manual boat crank set at the far end. It will soon be replaced with an electric winch good for 440 pounds and an electric switch instead of a hand crank.
Ryan is a smart young man and we have talked about safety and limitations more than once. He has indicated that he knows it is not prudent to push past limits that are unreasonable and unsafe. I have outright told him it is not worth a lifelong injury and he has agreed. . We both believe that if this is done properly he will be able to achieve something. What exactly that achievement will be we do not know. Its OK if he cannot get past his limits. Thats why we are starting on a smaller bow of 130 pounds to 142. 130 is actually a BIG bow and even if he never gets past that bow he did really good. Heck I cant even pull 75 pounds comfortably. I would have to say he has done a tremendous job in listening to Steve and a few others about technique as well as learning from some other You tube video's. Ryan ( I know you are listening ole man) However, he is willing to see what he can do in a safe manner and has assured me that he will practice safety as well as apply himself.
Here is a list of reasons to build this bow. I am sure someone , somewhere has done this before and I am not the first.
1 to learn what the wood does when it is seriously stressed out like that
(The info could be valuable for others wanting to build them as well as for myself)
2 Just plain curiosity
3. I think, I know I can do this
4 why does a man climb a mountain? because it is there
5 just for fun
6 I am Irish and Steve is English.
7 I am near 50 years old
All good valid reasons, However I'm not sure what you mean by reason 6.
Cheers
Steve
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Rudderbows,
If you're English what on earth are doing over there on the wrong side of the pond with all those strange Americans? ;>)
What you say about the drop in poundage on being worked is interesting. It does apply to lower weight bows and it is to be expected that the percentage may be similar in a heavier bow but the actual drop in pounds is big because it is proportional to a higher draw weight. If the effect is greater on heavier bows they could almost be seen as usefull for one battle or short period of use only and need replacing very quickly once"muzzle velocity" and distance achievable dropped off. I wonder if the large numbers of spare bows taken on campaign during the age of the warbow was due to bows becoming "tired" and not reaching the distance rather than breakage as generally assumed?
Mark in England
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Steve,
Reason number 6 is actually just a little levity there, a mild joke and means nothing. meant with good intention I assure you.
So far none have broken on this project. There are 3 more stave's set aside for this.
If I put the tips down on the floor with the belly side down and backside upward, measuring from dead center from the floor to the back of the bamboo it is 3" right on the nose after the bow has been unstrung for over 3 hours. I didn't measure it when it came right off of the tillering tree. Its actually not a tillering tree as most folks would think. its a 11 foot tall wood monstrosity with a thick piece of wood that reaches up 11 feet. Its got a manual boat crank set at the far end. It will soon be replaced with an electric winch good for 440 pounds and an electric switch instead of a hand crank.
Ryan is a smart young man and we have talked about safety and limitations more than once. He has indicated that he knows it is not prudent to push past limits that are unreasonable and unsafe. I have outright told him it is not worth a lifelong injury and he has agreed. . We both believe that if this is done properly he will be able to achieve something. What exactly that achievement will be we do not know. Its OK if he cannot get past his limits. Thats why we are starting on a smaller bow of 130 pounds to 142. 130 is actually a BIG bow and even if he never gets past that bow he did really good. Heck I cant even pull 75 pounds comfortably. I would have to say he has done a tremendous job in listening to Steve and a few others about technique as well as learning from some other You tube video's. Ryan ( I know you are listening ole man) However, he is willing to see what he can do in a safe manner and has assured me that he will practice safety as well as apply himself.
Here is a list of reasons to build this bow. I am sure someone , somewhere has done this before and I am not the first.
1 to learn what the wood does when it is seriously stressed out like that
(The info could be valuable for others wanting to build them as well as for myself)
2 Just plain curiosity
3. I think, I know I can do this
4 why does a man climb a mountain? because it is there
5 just for fun
6 I am Irish and Steve is English.
7 I am near 50 years old
All good valid reasons, However I'm not sure what you mean by reason 6.
Cheers
Steve
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Rudderbows ,
Thanks for keeping us informed.
Craig.
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Well guys I'm not home for more than 5 minutes and I've already finished up a bow. :D Now don't be haters about me guessing the weight. Its really hard for me to measure by myself but it was for sure over 100#@30". I'll try and make a shooting video later this weekend if the snow melts or I can find somewhere else to shoot. Read the description too cuz there's more information in there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGH2rrGMzqM
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Nice shape to the bow what are the dimensions, it does look rather flat.
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Thanks. It is 76" long. 1.5" from center to mid limb then it tapers to 1/2" nocks. Back to belly it's 1" at center and about 1/2" at the tips. I tried to crown the back and keep the belly fairly flat to balance out the forces. Cherry isn't the best belly wood for a heavy weight bow like this but its standing up pretty good so far.
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Ryoon,
I think you may be overestimating the strength of that bow, can you put it on some scales at full draw and show a photo.
Craig
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Well guys I'm not home for more than 5 minutes and I've already finished up a bow. :D Now don't be haters about me guessing the weight. Its really hard for me to measure by myself but it was for sure over 100#@30". I'll try and make a shooting video later this weekend if the snow melts or I can find somewhere else to shoot. Read the description too cuz there's more information in there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGH2rrGMzqM
Ryan,
I watched your youtube video... but, I'm confused. You say the bow that you've made in your latest video is 110#@32", and you can draw it all the way back (on your knees, no less). The bow that Jim sent you is also 110#@28", or probably about 125#@32". So, why can't you draw Jim's bow past 26"??? The only logical explanation I can think of is that your bow is considerably less than 110#.
Now don't get me wrong, you're drawing your bow well out to 32", and that's good. I'd advise you to practice while standing, however. Take your bow out, and practice with it... it looks like a good place to start, but stop fooling yourself that it's 110#. Keep going, work up slowly, and you'll be OK.
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Well I don't have a picture for you but I just measured the bow again and it was definitely at 110#@32". Here's my setup. I have a tillering stick on a bathroom scale. I put the bow on the stick and pull the string down to 32". The only explanation I can think of is the mechanics of the draw. I'm not trying to win any contests here. I do understand what you're saying though. It looks and feels easy to me too. :-\
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if you measure the draw weight of both bows at a range of draw lengths and plot a graph of the results this should show what the difference between your two bows are
e.g. here is a graph I produced of my bow
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.blackham/aiuk/May09/graph1.jpg)
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Ryoon,
I just measured the bow again and it was definitely at 110#@32". Here's my setup. I have a tillering stick on a bathroom scale. I put the bow on the stick and pull the string down to 32"
That method should get you in the region, but as you say the draw looks far too easy. Don't you know any other archers or archery clubs in your area or possibly an angler that would have a suitable scale?
If the bow is 110 lb I congratulate you on achieving that draw weight so quickly.
Craig.
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Ryoon,
My 1st thought when I saw the bow was that it looked more like a flat bow than a longbow, however your dimensions say otherwise, I must need glasses ;D, The next thing that occured to me was the length of the bow and that it is very short to go to 32", now in a flatter bow design this could work but not really in a deep D section, however I have seen some shorter bows drawn to 32" even though they are a deep D section so it is possible, Anyway keep at it and Im sure you will get up to warbow weights in the end.
One thing to be aware of is that not all bows will draw the same as profile makes a huge difference even if they weigh the same.
e.g., My every day shooting bow is 120lb@32" and I can shoot that all day with now problem, however I have a competition bow that weighs only 118lb that I can only draw to 30" and even then I may only get 2 arrows out of it before I cannot draw it any more.
So don't get hung up on draw weights they mean really very little in regards the power of the bow.
Oh and by the way....110lb is not "EASY"
Cheers
Steve
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Ryan
I've made many backed Cherry bows and from the looks of yours I would say that your scale is way off.
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I'd have to agree. I seriously doubt that cherry would be able to withstand 110#, especially with a narrow profile. I think it would chrysal horribly.
I've also made several backed cherry bows, and they've all been <50#, with wide & flat limbs.
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Well I don't know what to tell you guys. I just measured the bow this morning and it was more at around 105#@32" plus I weighed myself and it gave an accurate reading for that. The bow started out as 1/4"hickory backing, 1/4" purpleheart core, and 1/2" cherry belly. I thought cherry wouldn't be strong enough for it too but It hasn't chrysaled bad at all. The bow has taken around two inches of set. Also I made a string for it and it's actually 74" ntn. I'll try and make a graph like alanesq.
Yewboy - I was kidding when I said it was easy in that video. It is by no means easy to draw but considering the bow I have been drawing it's a dream.
alanesq - Thanks for posting that graph. Your warbow buildalong page is the reason I had the confidence to start making them.
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Well I just finished up trying to make a graph like the one alanesq showed. I did two inch increments from 12-26". I was having a rough time holding it steady at the longer draw lengths but I noticed that it started to stack a bit in the longer draw. I plotted it in an x,y scatter and added an exponential trend line to account for stacking. I plugged 32" into the trend line equation and came up with 108.8#. Its not the most accurate reading in the world but that's all I got. I don't really have any other way of measuring the draw weight. Anyways, I'll try and see if I can take some pics with my mom's camera to show better pics of the bow and I'll also take some of my last glue up of hickory, purpleheart, and white oak.
An aside - The color of this cherry very closely resembles yew heartwood so a hickory/ash/maple backed cherry could look a lot like a fake yew bow and with some added perry reflex could be a sweet shooter depending on design.
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Taking a note from Alan white oak and white ash will make a heavy weight bow up to as he has proved 160lb I wouldn't be using hickory or purpleheart on anything that is, no offence just a weight trainer.
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ryoon4690 : You need to do the same for your other bow now and then you may see why one is harder to draw than the other
it may be your other bow is heavier to draw at the start but goes up slower so reaching the same end draw weight
Or it could be just a matter of an extra 5lb making all the difference if you are close to the max you can draw - I find that a 100lb bow and a 120lb bow can feel about the same to draw but just go slightly beyond your limit and you can't draw it at all
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I cant fault ash for a backing but finding wood which can take the compression is the difficult bit in my experience
lemonwood or Ipe are the two woods I have had success with
btw - the oak did hold out for a good while but then suddenly decided to give in and started failing along its length
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alanesq - That other bow is 32# heavier at full draw. It's 110#@28 and the reason I think I can't get it there is because the mechanics of the draw. I feel when its that early in the draw I'm not using my back as much as at the farther draw lengths.
Ian - I did see his 160#er but I'll be going for around 125-130#. I think the hickory and purpleheart are fine to use in these heavy lam bow except for the fact that purpleheart sucks to work with. If I'm not mistaken hickory is even stronger in tensile strength than ash and can take more ring violation. The purple heart isn't doing much of anything besides putting space between the back and belly. White oak, haven't worked with it yet.
As for hickory for warbows. I used to think that at heavier weights hickory would crush its own belly but the bow Jim made me has a bamboo backing and hickory belly which shows no sign of chrysals what so ever. I think hickory can do just about everything.
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alanesq - That other bow is 32# heavier at full draw. It's 110#@28 and the reason I think I can't get it there is because the mechanics of the draw. I feel when its that early in the draw I'm not using my back as much as at the farther draw lengths.
Sorry - yes that would explain it
When I was shooting my 140lb bow no problem I have a 165lb bow whch I still couldnt get more than about 15"
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OK here is a You tube video of the first attempt being drawn on a scale.
This was the 225 pounder, but, was shooting for 250.
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos (http://www.youtube.com/my_videos) I will give another try at it very soon.
Uploading you tube stuff is tweekey with our computer. Sometimes it takes and sometimes it does not.
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That is a blank link, i you view the video then give us the web link that should work or alternately tell us what to search for.
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heavy bow man Marlon, I have a bow for you to try out. I have your address , but, I wanted to talk with and ask a couple of questions first on the phone if possible could you email me your phone number?
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Ian, sorry about that. Go to You tube and do a search for rudderbows, thats my call name there. The title of the video is "MEASURING A 225 POUND ENGLISH WAR BOW"
I will try to post the link again . Not sure if it will work, computers do not like me much.
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos
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that link just takes us to the "my videos" section, so it works for you but for us it takes us to our videos, not yours.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c1okvMP8m4
I searched from your channel, the above link will work,
P.S nice bow
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That's impressive! 225# @36" WOW >:D
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wow that looks truly like an Navi war bow...over 200lb at 36" draw...maybe a gorilla or an orangutan could draw it if we could train them.
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Ian, thanks so much for the help.
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That's great, but why didn't you show us the bow at full draw? Can we see a full view of the bow at full draw and 225#? Thanks!
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Rudderbow,
It would be nice to see the bow.
Can you give us the dimensions and the material used?
Craig.
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Its easier to get a digital photo than use the video camera for me. I will get a few shots of it here in a few days and post them. Its a massive bow. Nearly 1 1/2" wide at the widest point ( plus a 1/16") 80" in length tip to tip and is made from bamboo backed sapwood hickory. In order to keep the weight high the tips were kept about 3/4" wide on the plus side. Made from 1" thick board material unplaned. I searched for hickory that was a little more dense. The bamboo is about 3/16" thick in the middle and of course being bamboo varies a bit in thicknesses along the pength of the bow.
On looking back at the bow AND in condieration of the next one I kn ow the 225 is an impressive number, BUT I am dissappointed because I wanted a more realistic draw length more like 33" or so. The 225 came at 36". This means a lighter weight back at 33". Unless I am mistaken Not too many folks pull a bow to 36" inches. Dont most of the English warbow shooters pull between 28 and 33" typically? Does anyone have some typical draw length averages for war bow shooters by chance?
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Well, I do believe the war arrow shafts found aboard the Mary Rose varied in length from 30.5" to 32". That's the shaft length from the valley of the nock to the base of the head, and not the arrow's OAL. That being said, most modern warbow shooters, me included, draw between 30-32". My draw length seems to be optimal at 31". Any more than that seems beyond the human limit. If I'm making a warbow, I'll tiller it to 32", and measure the weight there. What was your bow's draw weight at 32"? And no, I agree, tillering a bow to 36" is unrealistic. I don't believe anyone would be able to shoot it. Just cuz the speedo on your car goes to 220km/hr, doesn't mean it'll go that fast. ;D
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Having reviewed your youtube video again, it looks to me like your bow would be about 200#@32" ... still very impressive!! I think you have about 50# or so more to make it as a legit 250# warbow. I'm dying to see the bow on the tiller at full draw!!! Could you also show us some details of your impressive tiller tree set-up? Thanks!
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Rudderbows,
Forgot to congratulate you on the first attempt.
Thank you for the info on the bow.
In answer to your question on draw length:
Warbow users strive for a 32 inch draw, the 200 lb world record was done at this draw length.
There are 4 standard arrows used in competition, details are available on EWBS site.
The minimum length of these standard arrows from bottom of nock to shoulder of point is:
1, Standard Arrow, 31.5 inches;
2, Livery Arrow, 30.5 inches;
3, Quarter Pound Arrow 30.5 inches;
4, John Holder Challenge Mark Arrow 31.5 inches.
Craig.
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craig, thank you for noticing, I looked at the wrong post; at adb's. Clearly saw 3 fingers ;) didn't even notice ryoons pictures !
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Nickf,
No worries mate, we all make mistakes some of the ones I have made make me cringe.
Craig.
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craig, thank you for noticing, I looked at the wrong post; at adb's. Clearly saw 3 fingers ;) didn't even notice ryoons pictures !
??? ??? ???
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Adb,
You would have to go back quite a number of posts to post No. 64 :), Nickf thought Rod had said something he didn't to do with the 4 finger draw. Nickf is explaining he looked at the wrong photo etc.
Craig.
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[]
Noone knows what bows were used for hunting in England during the middle ages as no bows exist anymore. However the size of the sockets for big hunting broadheads show that the arrow shafts were thick, therefore the bows were heavy in draw-weight since its difficult to shoot arrows weighing more than 100g and with half-inch shafts from bows that draw less than 100lb.
Dave
We have no way of knowing whether preserved ancient bows were used for hunting, war or practice but mediaeval books on hunting tell us that the hunting bow should be weaker so that it could be held half drawn while waiting for deer to be driven past by beaters, the usual hunting method for aristocrats in royal or baronial forests. How many hunting broadheads were tested ? A half inch shaft, even tapered, seems a lot for a weak bow.
Some posters suggest that mediaeval longbowmen drew with two fingers rather than the "modern three". The book of Roi Modus from before the Hundred Years War, Lartdarcherie from the 15th century, and Ascham's Toxophilus all clearly instruct a three finger draw.
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Bow-toxo,
.......mediaeval books on hunting tell us that the hunting bow should be weaker so that it could be held half drawn while waiting for deer to be driven past by beaters, the usual hunting method for aristocrats in royal or baronial forests.
It must be remembered those books were written for the wealthy, not for the majority, why would a peasant or even tradesman have 2 or more bows, they were not inexpensive in the real terms of that time. With the exception of Ascham, who was chosen to be a teacher of the bow to royals we have no idea as to the capability of the authors in the field about which they wrote, were they preeminent or just blowhards with an axe to grind?
Craig
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Bow-toxo,
It must be remembered those books were written for the wealthy, not for the majority, why would a peasant or even tradesman have 2 or more bows, they were not inexpensive in the real terms of that time. With the exception of Ascham, who was chosen to be a teacher of the bow to royals we have no idea as to the capability of the authors in the field about which they wrote, were they preeminent or just blowhards with an axe to grind?
Craig
First, Ascham was not chosen to be a teacher of the bow to royals. He took up archery for health reasons and thought it was time someone wrote about an important subject as books had been written about medicine, hunting, aachitecture etc. People had more than one bow for example if they engaged in flight shooting competitions for money and needed a shorter bow that would be good for only a few shots. of course they needed a bow for the cumpulsory shooting practice, perhaps another one for clout shooting. As they had been shooting from an early age, they might also have bows that they had outgrown.
The authors of the books mentioned were describing archery that they participated in when they lived. In a word they were eyewitnesses. Some people today apparently prefer to rely on urban myths like the two finger salute or uninformed guesswork. I don't. Of course we always have to recognize blowhards with an axe to grind. They are everywhere.
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Bow-toxo
In 1548, three years after he published his book, Ascham was appointed to the post of teaching the then Princess Elizabeth, in teaching her he also taught her the art of shooting the bow.
As for your assertion to the ownership by the majority of multiple bows I suggest you look at the price of a bow compared with the money people earned, between 1270 and 1400 a carpenter earned between 3d and 5d a day while during the same period an agricultural worker earned 2d to 4d a day. Taking 1359 as an example the cost of a bow was 18d for a painted bow or 12d for a white bow, a sheath of arrows cost 17d and three strings 1d, so it would cost a carpenter 4 to 6 days work for a painted bow or 3 days work for a white one, these times can be multiplied out to get the cost in days to an agricultural worker and remember part of an agricultural workers wage could be paid in food. Now in Australia the minimum wage is $14.31 per hour, if we multiply that up by the say 10hr day we get $143.10 per day so a painted bow and 3 strings would have cost the equivalent of $1,001.70 this of course ignores the cost of arrows and their heads. How many people on minimum wage do you know that could afford to throw away multiple $1000's to own a number of different bows. The idea is ludicrous.
Le livre du roi Modus et de la Royne Racio was written about 1370 some 33 years after the start of the 100 Years' War not before it or don't you think that Crécy in 1346, La Roche-Derrien in 1347, Potiers in 1356 and the other 11 major battles between 1337 and 1369 were part of the 100 Years' War? The book was written by a Frenchman for the French aristocracy and is as much a moral treatise as a hunting one. The French peasant did not have one let alone 2 bows, neither did the majority of the french nobility who regarded the bow with distaste. They may have had a hunting bow and even a flight bow but not a war bow. It is to be remembered that the French of that period were not renowned for their expertise in the use of the longbow or for their expertise in any form of archery. Which is one of the reasons I would place little faith in its contents.
Craig.
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Crasig,
Thank you for the very informed response and for your correction of my mistaken dating of Roi Modus. Whoever the book was written for, it describes the archery gear and detailed hunting methods of the period and location and is the best information of the period that we have. That England was acknowledged to have the best archers does not make French information without value in a period lacking in English information.
Minimum wage in Ontario is $9.50 and perhaps not more applicable to the Middle Ages than Australian minimum wage. If memory serves, bowyers were restricted to three bows for personal use to be equal to other Englishmen.
After Agincourt, [ where French archers were present but not used] such Frernch peasants as were Francs-archiers, at least two per village, and in 1466 numbering 16,000, certainly did have bows as did Frenchmen required by ordonnance, but when they got too proficient, the nobles cancelled the ordonnance out of fear of revolt. Still, two thousand Francs-archiers were brought to England by Warwick [1470] during the Wars of the Roses to fight for Lancaster.
Thanks also for your own correction that Ascham was hired as tutor to Princess Elizabeth, not as archery.teacher.
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Any more progress on this 250# warbow? You still haven't shown us the first bow on the tiller at full draw. Any plans for doing that? Thanks!
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Well I finally got a chance to shoot that warbow Jim sent me and I also got a chance to shoot the one I made. I know when I'm shooting my bow I didn't get it back all the way but it was my first time warbow shooting. I feel like I could probably get the other one back another inch but it felt pretty good for not practicing in a few weeks. Sorry the videos are sideways. Also I'm not sure why, but when I tried to watch the video, it was slow and didn't get to me loosing the arrow. Hopefully it works.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/SDC10456.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/th_SDC10462.jpg) (http://s327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/?action=view¤t=SDC10462.flv)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/th_SDC10465.jpg) (http://s327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/?action=view¤t=SDC10465.flv)
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Can you provide some details on the bow you're shooting in the pis? Is it your bow, or the one Jim made for you? poundage?
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Fo shiz adb. The bow I'm drawing in the pic is the very same I made that video of me drawing. Still around 105#@32". The bow Jim made me is the one I don't get back all the way.
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Hey, Jim... it's been nearly a month... are you still workng on this project, or has it been shelved? I think many of us would still like to see your first attempt at full draw on the tiller tree.
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Ryan, Thats awesome, good work. ! I am sending the 225 bow to Marlon. I just got the fast flighth string he suggested for the Big beast, Marlon suggested using fastflight because it has far less string stretch. that was one consideration I had not thought of.
No the project is not scrapped. Its too much fun. After the 225 pounder was built I now know this can easily be done with a thicker piece. The next staves are made from Ipe and so the same thicknesses and widths will yield a higher draw weight. I have glued up 3 more staves for it as well as one more bamboo hickory. I work full time plus some and cannot work on it every day or even every week for that matter.
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Can you send some pics of the 225# bow at full draw on your tiller tree?
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Hey, Jim... I'm a bit disappointed you're not willing to post some pics of this bow. Until that time, I remain slightly sceptical.
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Im pretty sure i ran across the 225# bow on youtube...
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Yes, there are some youtube vids, but none showng all the bow at full draw. Closeups of the weight scale does not allow full draw tiller to be seen. Jim?
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Is this thread and attempt at making this 250# bow dead?
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Is this thread and attempt at making this 250# bow dead?
It has been going since Decamber, I think we can be paitent and wait for more info and pictures.
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Is this thread and attempt at making this 250# bow dead?
It has been going since Decamber, I think we can be paitent and wait for more info and pictures.
I think my question was more directed towards Jim, and wondering if he was still working on this project.
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Let me just say that I would like to see this project more fully documented on here. I think it unlikely that the heavy bow community is interest in playing "guess my draw-weight".
Also I do not consider it untoward that some who are properly familiar with shooting the heavy bow have legitimate concerns about the possibilty of injury, which should not be taken as criticism.
Jim and Ryan, if you have any video or other documentation I do not think it asking too much that you post it here as it is here that you have chosen to describe this project.
In the meantime let's see a little less persistent comment that might be misconstrued.
On the whole I appreciate that this one has not yet got out of control. Let's keep it that way.
Rod.
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Controversial, and completely interesting. I couldn't pull a one of those to full draw to save my life.
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Let's get something straight... I am NOT interested in stirring up any controversay on this thread. I am genuinely interested in this project. I am also hoping to learn something about pushing the envelope of heavy draw weight. My persistence is only to be enlightened. I mean no offence. If anyone has taken such, I apologize. I truly hope that more pics and/or vids of the 225# bow are made available soon. I believe Marlon has the 225#'er, and I hope he can show us all how it bends, and the bow's dimensions. Jim's vid on youtube was interesting and showed the draw weight, but I'm hoping to see the bow's tiller. Thanks.
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Hey guys. Its been a while since I've contacted Jim because I haven't made any progress myself on moving up in draw weight. Its not that I've hit my limit but I haven't had any time to practice because of school. I'm sure he's busy but still working on this thing but I can't say when or how often he'll update for us.
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This is one of those threads that I have to come back and check once in a while. I think it's wicked cool, and I can't wait to see more.
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This is one of those threads that you can age along with the wood.
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This is one of those threads that you can age along with the wood.
:D :D :D
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I might be out of my league here but dont u think if a guy can bench over 1000lbs. dont mean he can pull a bow at 200...You push to bench and pull the bow. Hey but I would love to see the bow and it to bend at full drAW
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That's pretty ambitious. Firstly youll need a lot of wood to take the straind and secondly you should make its main mass in the centre of the bow so your cast will be higher. Aim for a longbow as making a recurve is more efficient with smaller bows. perhaps using heavy arrows will be more suitable for such a high draw weight.
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Thought I'd post an update. I made a new video of me pulling the 149#@33" boo backed hickory warbow Jim made me and also there is a new video on his channel of Marlon Torrez aka Heavybows pulling the 225#@34" warbow Jim showed us in his other video.
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Thanks for the update.
It is difficult to tell from the angle, but do you think that is a 34ins draw? Also having someone hold the bow spreads some of the compressive forces and allows much more leverage/muscle recruitment akin to a pulley row etc. Any pics with just Marlon drawing it back?
Having tried to pull an 'impossibow' (I would estimate that it was around the 200@32 mark)the other day at an ETAS shoot I can relate to these efforts.
Cheers,
Alistair
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i think he was pulling to 29". i think it was in the description or the comments
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Thought I'd post an update. I made a new video of me pulling the 149#@33" boo backed hickory warbow Jim made me and also there is a new video on his channel of Marlon Torrez aka Heavybows pulling the 225#@34" warbow Jim showed us in his other video.
Where are these videos?
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Link it please!
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You can find my videos on my page at youtube.com/ryoonit and you can find Jim's at youtube.com/rudderbows.
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Thanks! :o
Like both! Cheers Marlon !