Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: zenmonkeyman on December 28, 2009, 09:07:15 pm
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Having monkeyed some with an oak plank, I couldn't wait to try a selfbow. I knew there were some nice chokecherries competing with mature poplars behind my parents' house, so on my last visit I harvested one. It was about 3" across, with some knots but not too many. I left it a whole 3 days before I had to start. I quickly peeled it and macheted it into a large mess and a very rough stick. Sealed the ends and back with shellac and brought it in the house. Laid it out and started with my "drawknife" (also my machete). I decided on a 4inch handle offset an inch from center, 61" tip to tip, 1 1/2" at the fades tapering evenly to 1/2" at the tips. I want to hunt deer but I'm pretty scrawny so I'm looking at no more than 50#. I just skimmed through Gordon's hazelnut buildalong though (for about the 5th time!) and I'm worried I haven't left enough wood. I guess I'll find out.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3622_1.jpg)
This is the only knot penetrating the back. There are a few violating the belly to mostly minor degrees.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3624_1.jpg)
Bit of a kink on the upper limb as well. Otherwise she's pretty straight!
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3626_1.jpg)
I put the handle in the center of the natural reflex. Had enough length to play with. (I hope!)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3629_1.jpg)
Clamped the crooked limb and went away for Chistmas.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3630_1.jpg)
Yesterday I worked it down a bit more, got it *mostly* floor tillered, and clamped it up. The upper limb turned out dead straight after 4 days on the rack, but still has some twist. I have it clamped with a hatchet holding it over.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3640_1.jpg)
The other end which was straight before went a bit wild over the last week, so I have the tip clamped over and down for the twist, and squeezed to the side with another bar clamp for the bend. Also in this shot are my twisted tamarack limb billets. I'll be looking for help with them for my next project! ;D
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3641_1.jpg)
So once again I prevail on all of you to register your opinions on where I'm going wrong. Save me from myself! Will I get 45-50#s out of this? Somebody on an old thread said he'd found chokecherry to be nearly "indestructable" so I'm hoping he's right. Thanks for helping!
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looks great to me
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Zen---
You know I have not made a bow the way you do....but it looks to my eye that you have plenty of wood (limb thickness back to belly) to get way more than 50#. One other....Most all the deer I've shot with my 45 to 50 pound bows were through and through so my phylosophy is good weight arrows, from a bow you shoot well and hit where you're looking is way more important than a 70-75# you miss with.
Just one old mans opinion
half eye ;)
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i'm with half eye on this
looks like ya got plenty for hefty bow,but theres more to a good kill than a heavy weight bow
p.s. i'm al for a messy work area,but looks like ya need to do a litle house cleaning ;Dlol
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Chokecherry has been very, very kind to me before I read the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles. Worked removed from the back and the belly + horrendous tiller = sweet 40# bow. This was from a severely twisted tree too. ???
You have a fantastic stave there, as long as you avoid everything I did you should get a great bow. It looks fantastic already.
PS. I weigh a clean 130# (read extra scrawny) and draw 70# without too much trouble. When I draw 50# I can hit things sometimes. You'll get used to 50-60# pretty quickly.
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Looks good Zen. I would think you will have plenty of wood to tiller to 50#. I am gonna keep a close eye on this thread for I have a chokecherry stave drying in the rafters of the shop. I cut it mid september on an elk hunt, sealed the ends, and split it about a week ago. I left the bark on, and will soon peel and shelac as you did. I was thinking of the same style of bow, so I will see how yours comes out and may try it. Good luck with the rest of your project.
Tell
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Howdy Zen and Group,
So, am I missing something here? Before beginning work on this stave you left it for, "a whole 3 days"? Does chokecherry not need any drying time? I don't recall hearing of any wood that doesn't have to be sealed and left to dry for at least a few months.
I'm concerned that once you begin to tiller that terrific stave you'll get some terrible set due to its moisture content. So, please correct or inform me on this critical drying process.
I sure hope this works for you.
BTW, I'm guilty of passing on cutting down some chokecherry because I wasn't sure it would make a decent bow. So, thanks for sharing.
All the Best,
Canoe
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Wow thanks for all the comments and encouragement!
Half eye & Sailordad: With the weight, what I'm concerned with is whether chokecherry as a wood can withstand being bent at my hoped-for draw weight without failing. I want a shortish bow, and not having any information on what chokecherry "likes", I just thought I'd go for it and hope for the best. I also agree that 40-50# is lots for deer with proper tuning and arrow choice. If I got 50# and I like how the bow shoots, I might even be tempted to look for an elk... (And hope I found a little one!)
Dauntless: Hey, maybe it was your replies to somebody else's posts that encouraged me to try this, what you say seems familiar. I picked up a PSE bow with training wheels at Canadian Tire the other day, 70#... Couldn't budge it. I guess it's different with trad & primitive bows, though... Maybe I can do 70# at the end of my draw where I've got better leverage. Never thought about it before. Maybe the next bow I'll try for some outrageous weight. I'll have to get a block & tackle for tillering, though, both for my back and my meat scale which bottoms at 50#. ;)
rileyconcrete: Glad to have you along! You've been thinking this over for a while, obviously. What were your plans for how to proceed with yours, and why? You've probably thought of some things that I haven't. Let's compare notes!
Canoe: If you do a search here for green staves, you'll find a lot of people assuring us that it's perfectly ok to rough out a bow when it's green, and it will cure much much faster than leaving a tree with the bark on. I'm probably rushing things a bit, but I can't leave it alone! It seems like it's very close to dry though, I can't believe how light my stick feels in my hand. I'll be proceeding slowly and watching for set, but I have a lot of natural reflex at the handle that (in my mind) gives me some leeway. I cut it on the 18th or 19th. Don't pass on these trees, I've read a few times in my searches that these are sweet-shooting bows.
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Hi Zen. Let that chokecherry dry Clamp it on a form. She'll twist on you bad.. I let my staves dry for at least a year.
you'll get a easy 50 out of that.What area of the keystone province are you from? Check out my lastest chokecherry..
It's a work in progress project
Thanks Leroy
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Stoker, that is one wonky stick!!
I dunno, mine is already very close to dry, maybe peeling it green and reducing it quickly saved me. Like maybe the wood out on the edges decided to shrink at varying rates on you, whereas I removed it and it couldn't exert any influence on my stick. I got a little bit of twist and bend, but very easily manageable. I think my willful ignorance of proper procedure ironically prevented the problems slow curing is supposed to prevent! Isn't that a kick in the pants!
I'm a farmboy from the Clear Lake area just south of Riding Mountain National Park, about an hour north of Brandon on the #10. Are you a fellow 'Toban? Have you finished any of your chokecherry bows? How did they turn out?
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I've been pretty much incapable of leaving this stick alone, even though I know a few more days of drying would probably help. Got it on the tree here.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3645_1.jpg)
Lost some of my reflex already.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3646_1.jpg)
This darn knot is in an unfortunate location. It runs diagonally right through the corner here. I soaked it in super glue, but the bow takes a bit of a twist right here, courtesy of this knot. Any advice would be appreciated.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3647_1.jpg)
Even this dumb little pin knot seems to create a weak spot. I suspect when I get tillered down to my weight range, it'll be wrecking a corner too.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3648_1.jpg)
Sure is purty wood though. This is the upper limb.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3649_1.jpg)
I reread some of my reference posts, and found one voice of experience that warned of fretting, but also said the sapwood is strong enough in tension to handle both the crown and a heat-treated belly. So I guess that's where I'm headed in order to prevent too much more set. What do you guys think?
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Zen,
I was going for the same flatbow design you are. I just though I would let mine dry slowly. But I have alot of time on my hands and may begin to rough it out and put it on a form to dry. This will be my first atempt at chokecherry< and hopefully it works good. That stuff grows all over in the mountains here so I can get as much as I want.
Good luck with the rest of your project. hope it all goes good for ya.
I would hold off and let that thing dry before you get any more set JMO.
Tell
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Hi Zen.. I'm From Medicine Hat Ab. I've bear hunted on the north side of riding mountain near Dauphin
Be careful around the knots that's where you'll get a hinge.That's where I blow'm up.. I chose this stave
because of the challange(freind said I couldn't do it) Made a few low poundage 35 -40 there not bad but
I trying for 55 on this one.. Taking my time one her..
Thanks Leroy
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Zen, looks like it needs to bend more close to the handle on both limbs. Jawge
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One thing I have found to be true the outside looks dry but the inside is still slipping fibers because the internal binder are not dry and ridged and set up when the out side is semi ridged and the inner is loose it will pop a splinter on the back when stressed because it is not being held by the slipping fibers when the whole limb fibers are not locked to the core this is just what happened to me over the20 or so selfbows I have made about 8 were tree limb &sapling trunk bows with high crowns and splinters were a pain till I made sure they where dried and and solid as it can get.
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Thanks for the input guys! Stoker, there's no better place in north america to hunt black bears than near RMNP. A farmer near Sandy Lake shot one that would have been the world record had he shot it legally, the rug was something like 9 ft. Wodpow, that is some good food for thought. I'll try to slow down, but mostly I'm just going to pray that I don't put you into "I told you so territory"... Plenty of chokecherries where this one came from! That said, I realized last night that there's no need to be pulling 40# or more while I'm still on the long string... Which leads me to my TOPIC FOR TODAY:
According to my half-assed research, Chokecherry sapwood is strong in tension but will take set in compression. The heartwood is strong in compression. My problem is that I'm running out of heartwood here. Refer to my hastily-drawn diagram: (But ignore my labelling, I somehow mislabelled sapwood and heartwood... D'OH!!)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3650ec.jpg)
The 1st row is the current cross-section of my stick at the fades and the tips.
The 2nd row is the projected cross-section should I continue my current tillering strategy. I may end up with sapwood on the belly, which is not ideal obviously.
The 3rd row displays option #1: Narrowing the stave, and preserving thickness that way. I'm worried I would be more likely to lift a splinter as per wodpow's warning if I leave it too thick and tiller the sides instead.
The 4th row is option #2: Bevelling the edges to eliminate some of the sapwood where it dips to its lowest point, leaving me more room to tiller the belly.
The 3rd option might be a combination of options 1 and 2, where I both narrow and bevel, which would result in more of a flattened D shape.
The 4th option, which I am reluctant to even put out there, is decrowning. Really don't want to do it for both level-of-difficulty reasons and aesthetic reasons.
What would you guys do?
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Hi Zen.. I'm leaning towards optain 2 on my bow.. I was told by a freind of mine NEVER take sap wood off of chokecherry
I'm thinking you would have to sinue back then..I still think you should let her dry out some more befor tillering to far..
Soon will be the time to collect some more wood The natives around here beleive that you get the best wood 3 days after the
the full moon in Febuary..I'm planning my attack have 3 or 4 spotted..
Thanks Leroy
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I'd consider a fifth option of narrowing the tension-strong back while keeping the compression-weak belly wood as wide as possible. This would be the opposite of what you have as the beveling option in your sketches.
Not sure which is right. I'll defer to those more experienced in working with saplings.
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zenman
This is not exactly on the subject but might be helpfull when combined with your building plan. When I work with wood not fully dried here is a tip that helps the wood cells reach a stable equalibrium. After each session of working on the wood support it on both limb tips and hang a one gallon jug (milk container?) from a cord right in the middle of the grip. The 13 or so pounds doesn't seem like much and that is the whole idea. It is sort of like putting a person in traction....straighten things out with a litle weight over time.
The small weight will allow the freshly worked wood cells to normalize and (more importantly) will allow the wood to equalize the overall stress by itself, without any cell damage. I have been doing thing this on my last several bows and am beginning to really like it. It is not a big hassel...just take the jug off and work the bow a little, when your done put the jug back on and so on untill its a bow.
Even though my bow wood is vertical grain the system will straighten propeller twist, reflex etc by letting the wood compensate slowly. Before everybody wants to get out the tar and feathers....this is not how to get instant and permanent shape to a bow stave....but it will make for a stronger and longer lived bow in the end. If you try this while you are doing the other things you are wanting to do, it might help with some of the twisting and stress induced damage that otherwise might occure.
hope I explained this clearly....I find that so far it has helped my bow wood so far....FYI
half eye ;)
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I doubt the heartwood/sapwood difference will change much in this bow. You'll get all sapwood near the tips which is fine because they barely work. You'll get more heartwood in the working limbs as they'll be thicker.
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Well, without making a conscious decision, I started tillering the sides on a bevel. As I've been going, the sapwood visible on the sides has been diminishing and the heartwood increasing slightly. I currently have almost equal heartwood and sapwood on the sides, about 1/4" of each for most of the length of the bow. My fades have narrowed to about 1 1/4 (down from 1 1/2), and the bow overall has gotten skinnier. I'm about ready to put the short string on. I've got a bit more set, the tips are now about flush with the bottom of the handle. The edge knots that had me worried before have been tillered off.
Hojo, you definitely made me pause and think, but ultimately I decided to soldier on.
Half eye, this seems like good advice. If I could ask for a clarification to be sure I don't have this backwards, do I hang the bow belly down or belly up? I'm thinking belly down.
Thanks guys for the hints, tips, and general interest! I should be posting a brace shot soonish.
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Got to here and decided to brace.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3658.jpg)
This is a low brace, just over 3" It looks like it's too stiff at the fades, but it started with quite a bit of reflex off the handle.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/zenmonkeyman/IMG_3659.jpg)
I started exercising, thinking I still had quite a way to go, until I realized I was at about 40# at 25"... I pulled to 45#, then, unadvisedly, to 50#, looked at the tape: 29". There's a hinge, and a stiff spot still. I'd also like to bring the string over, it's on the wrong side of the handle. But... No pops, cracks, or kapows! ;D AND, since I was planning on heat treating the belly anyways, I'm feeling pretty good about this. When I took it off the tree, it felt pretty spongy, going "Bunk" when before it had gone "*binggg*" Haha, greenish wood... :-\ Unstrung, lots of string follow, but corrects itself to moderate set.
I can hardly believe how little wood is left, and how light it is. I don't know if it weighs half of what the 40# red oak board weighs. Anyways, tomorrow it will be heat gun and horn overlay time. Wish me luck!
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You are most correct ...oh wise one ;D belly down. By the way I dont exactly know what you were looking for....but damned if that dont look like a bow to me!!!!
half eye ;)
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You really shouldn't be working the bow so green like this. The set you are creating won't be fully removed by heat treating. I just hope you don't have any chrysals (compression fractures); they form a lot easier on unseasoned wood.
Also the set you get immediately after unstringing is the set that counts.
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Thanks, half eye!
Dauntless, you and everybody else are right, I know I shouldn't be working this stick yet. I crossed the line when I pulled it that last pull last night to 50#, I just hope I haven't damaged it too bad. I panicked when I realized how close I was to weight and I still needed some tuning, so I did the dumb thing. I'm going to heat treat today, clamp it to a form, and leave it alone for a while.
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OK, I may as well own up here... *hangs head in shame* :-[ I considered allowing this thread to fade into the distance, but I don't want to create one more thread that dead-ends without some closure. I resolve to write no mystery threads!!! O:)
I wrecked it. That last tug to 50# did indeed fret the limbs in *several* places. Right through the heartwood and into the sapwood. I apologize to the forest for killing a 30+ yr old tree. Thankfully, I learned a great deal in the process. During a full day of moping and crustiness, I managed some brief interludes of rational thought, and here are some of my conclusions. I'm going to start with
What I think I did right:
Roughing out the stave almost immediately after harvesting, laying out the limbs, tapering, and floor tillering within a few days. I eliminated excess wood pulling the stave in all directions, making the blank easily clampable and controllable. I shellacked the ends and the back, and had zero problems with checking. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Laying out a gradual taper from the fades to the tips. I believe my final width of 1 1/4" at the fades is about right.
What I think I did wrong:
Dispensing with patience. Duh. Feel free to chime in with well-deserved I-told-you-so's. I want you all to know that I knew you were speaking wisdom, but chose to risk disaster anyways. But also, I think I cut the stave too short. My bevelled flatbow design was probably not optimal, even if I think it looks cool. ::) Not heat-treating before bracing. Not cutting more than 1 stave. :P
What I will do differently for the next one:
"Patience, Grasshopper". Design a bend-through handle if a short bow is desired. Make and use a hot-box if patience is unbearable. Heat-treat early. Go with more of an elliptical profile. (I think I will maintain a flat belly, but curve gently into it instead of tillering a sharp bevel, and since this one failed in compression, I will err on the side of too much heartwood rather than too much sapwood.) Finally, I think I will be better prepared for the point at which the tillering changes from weight-coming-off-slowly to weight-coming-off-way-too-fast.
Thanks for the looks and support, and especially the input.
Anybody know of any bow wood in or near Regina? :)
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Personally, I learn more from what goes wrong than what goes right....only difference between you and me is I broke a LOT more sticks than you have ::)
half eye
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Thanks, half eye, you're a generous and knowledgeable spirit and a credit to the forum. I ain't about to quit now, in fact I have a buddy talked into going on a tour of his bush property to find a new stave tomorrow. ;D It took me a day to regroup.
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What I think I did wrong:
Dispensing with patience. Duh. Feel free to chime in with well-deserved I-told-you-so's. I want you all to know that I knew you were speaking wisdom, but chose to risk disaster anyways. But also, I think I cut the stave too short. My bevelled flatbow design was probably not optimal, even if I think it looks cool. ::) Not heat-treating before bracing. Not cutting more than 1 stave. :P
Been there, done that. I usually work on over a dozen bows at once. That way I can wait for some bows dry for several weeks while I work on others. IMHO you are supposed to heat treat well seasoned bows. I have no qualms about decrowning. If we can make bows from plain sawn boards, we can decrown all kinds of wood. If things do not work out, we can always back it. So long as we have enough patience not to pull the bow too much, way too early. Such a wisdom is hard earned. Let's be grateful.
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Well, I cut 5, 3 are pretty good and 2 are unrealistically challenging. 2 should be good for 2 staves each. I was hoping for some variety, but they're all chokecherry again. The best tree of the bunch is the one I spared to help the bears manufacture more black, pitty poop next year. ;D Darn, I wished I'd spied it 1st! I also have a nice deflex/reflex, hopefully it isn't too short. I think I'll rough and clamp 2 or 3 staves, and then build a hotbox. It's gonna be a good year.
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In for research