Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Newbowyer on March 02, 2007, 11:11:52 pm
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I decided to do a buildalong because I need help. Lots of it. This is just my second bow, my first one went great so I was inclined to build another.
Should I be worried about the knot? I can get about a good 70 inch section of this 9 foot board ( Originally thought it was 8) that only has like 4 pea sized knots. My question is the best section of the board has this knot in it ( big one in pic) . Will it affect my bow? I can use other parts of the board but they arent as good.
Is there such a thing as too thick of growth rings?
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/Picture077.jpg)
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/Picture078.jpg)
Knot area unusable. Yay or neigh?
is it possible to get the bow to almost final tiller, if I like enough I can buy some boo and glue up some reflex or do I have to glue up reflex before I tiller. I realize if I backed it with boo I would have to re tiller but I dont want to use boo if I dont know the bow will survive?
Thanks! Hopefully I get some stuff done with it this weekend.
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CC, I am not an expert on board bows. The first bow I made was an unbacked board bow but I haven't made one since. I have made some bamboo boo backed ipes and some bamboo backed osage bows though. Hickory is some pretty tough stuff when it comes to tension strength. I have heard of guys getting away with a lot grain wise on a hickory board. You could get that piece floor tillered and bending nicely and then back it with another piece of hickory and glue up some reflex in it. I have heard that people have had mixed resulted with backing hickory with boo. I have heard the boo will over power the hickory but that is only what I have heard.
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So it would be hickory backed hickory?
Is backing it with silk or linen an option? Or should I just leave it unbacked?
The rest of the board has quite a few little knots. The one in picture is the biggest one.
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I just got done building a laminated Hickory backed Yellowheart longbow that pulls 65# at 28". Shoots them really well and the rings are violated numerous times on the back of the bow. I would say if its hickory you can get away with this up to arround 65#. Dont think I would push the wood farther thant that with ring violations though.
Best thing, if you are worried about it, back it with silk or some other backing. It may save your bow from blowing out on you. From what I understand these types of backing are best for stopping wood from blowing under tension.
D. Tiller
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CC,
Yeah that is what it would be. A hickory backed hickory. I have heard of that before. That would be a good way to glue in some perry reflex.
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Maybe I will do that. I will try to get pics up of rest of board. I might cut it out and draw dimensions out.
I am aiming for 40# @27". I think I am going to cut it down to 1.5 inches from 1.75. I am goingt to have the fades start 14 inches from tips. Should I have them go down to 3/8 in width and 1/4 in height? I think I will do a stiff handle as well. 64 NTN.
I really appreciate the help! Thanks
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At only 40# I think linen or silk will be more than enuf to keep any splinters down.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Dana
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I think, it will work without backing. A silk- or linenbacking will make it totaly safe!
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I don't like any imperfections on my boards. I'd return it. Jawge
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Also, the grain pattern on that board on the face seems to be all over the place. Take it back and look for a straight grained board is my advice. Also look at the edge gain. There's a picture of a almost perfect board on my site. Jawge
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cc! - if you want a really nice 40#bow back it with hickory and pull it into reflex while gluing it up. i made one like that a while ago. i tillered really carfully and S L O W L Y and i have saved bit over an inch of reflex.
but if it's now problem to return the board and get anotherone that's even better.
frank
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I've never seen hickory with rings that thick. What are the width and thickness dimentions of that stave? You may be able to remove a backing strip right from that stave, reverse it and glue it back in a Perry reflex.
Some of Dan Perry's flight shooting bows are hickory backed hickory. He does live in Utah wehere the humidity is almost nothing. Pat
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Taking it back is a problem. Nobody sells hickory but this place, and there selection was not good. It wasnt terrible expensive 10$ for two boards. If you are wondering why I am not using the other one is because it actually cracked on the car ride home from the wood shop ( I have wonderful luck).
Anyway, I am going to go ahead with it. Normally I would take it back if it wasnt far away and if I knew that there was much better boards there.
I was contemplating my what my dimensions would be, I figured it would be alright to trace one limb of my last bow and then trace the same limb again to make it a complete bow. Get it? I marked the middle of the bow to the nearest 1/16 and traced the outline, flipped it around and did it again. I ended going right over the knot pictured above. I looked at it all torn up about what to do then looked at it from the side and realized it wasnt deep at all. In my vast knowledge of bow making ;) I decied to go over it. So Right now I have everything traced out ready to be rasped down into a bow.
. The knot is very close to the edge, or even on the edge as you can see its less then a ring deep? Or am I wrong?
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow002.jpg)
Here is is being traced.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow001.jpg)
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Jawge, I went to your site and kinda got confused on what type of grain orientation is best. So I made a paint picture.
What orientation is best. Board A or Board B
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/Boards.jpg
Board B is on the right, Sorry for tiny pic
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For a board I'd say B, A is more like a stave cut from a tree. "A" can work if ya have a thick enuf piece it would
be possible to reduce it to one growth ring and essentially have a stave. Is this right guys??
Dana
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That's right, Dana. CC, either of those end grains will work for a hickory board bow but the grain lines running down the edge and down the back are more inportant to pay attention to, If the grain in either place runs off of the stave too sharply, thats when you get in trouble. Pat
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Great news. My dad went to a party that a one of his co-workers had. They got talking and somehow the guy learned I made bows in a conversation with my dad. Apparently he is familiar with the subject of selfbows. He said he had a bag of rattlesnake skins wondered if I wanted them . My dad said he would ask so hopefully I will be getting a bag of snake skins! How cool is that? Also I recieved access to a wood working shop through one of my dads friends also! But I wont be able to use for a couple months because the guy is gone in florida.
So tommorow I am going to go ahead with roughing the bow out. Hopefully I can post pics
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Thats awesome Coca Cola a free bag of skins, I think their runnin about $45/pair at 3 Rivers. Nice find
Dana
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Coca Cola, Most of my bows are board bows and I have spent hours digging through stacks of boards looking for the right one. I am curious where the big knot ended up when you layed out the bow. Is it mid limb or in the handle or what? If you are only looking to get 40 # you could go a little narrower, but its not necessary. First thing I would do is cut the cracked portion out of the other board. If you can stop the crack you can still use the good portions of the other board for built up risers. (glue on handles) Now if you can lay out and trace that other bow onto this board with the handle over the knot that would be great. I started to type how I would proceed, but lets see were that knot ends up first. You don't want it in the edge of the board either. Justin
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Can you cut the board in half and splice it back to your advantage? Just another thought! Pat
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Justin- I put the knot in the middle of the limb. I fugured it would be worse to be halfway on the limb.
With the other board I am planning on doing just that, using it for risers and what not.
Also, I searched for a long time before I could find a place that carried hickory, and as I said before their selection was not good. My other board had nice verticle grain with average ring size but it cracked. Yesterdsay I was at lowes and took a look at there red oak and they had a PERFECT board.... 0 run offs, nice rings, but it was warped a good 2 inches to the right. I realize the importance of a good board but the bowyer gods do not like me. Maybe I should start buying my bows.
Pat B- Can I splice it w/o a bandsaw?. My tools are; 4 way rasp, angle grinder, surform and a couple of generic files and a hand saw . Thats all I have until I get access to a wood shop.
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If you are careful, you can easily cut a "Z" or "W" splice with a hand saw. Even if your cuts aren't that good you can soak the splice cuts in hot water and then clamp the splice together without glue. When it has dried, you unclamp it and you have a splice that fits and is ready for glue-up. Pat
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Ok, I am having doubts about this, everytime I get ready I look at it and wonder if its worth the time.
Would it be possible to Grind one of those thick rings down using the angle grinder to make a backing for another piece of wood? . Then use the backing to glue reflex into a red oak bow? I think if I look hard enough I can find a good oak board then back it with this. I think the late growth is thick enough so that I can do this. Opinions?
I am just worried it will break, even though all of you guys say its probably fine I am not sure I can get so that I put 10-15 hours into something that starts off with a problem.
I really appreiciate the help. Whenever I dont do someting you guys say I feel like I am saying " I dont trust you so I will suggest something else". Which would be really rude. I am just trying to explore all my possibilities.
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Stop worrying about it breaking. If we all worried about breaking bows, we wouldn't be making them. Even if you put 100 hours into a bow and it breaks, if you learn one thing, the time is not wasted. I have ruined many pieces of good bow wood and either broke or hinged many bows in the last 20 years. I would not be where I am in bow building if it wasn't that I learned something from every break, hinge or ruined piece of wood.
If you are uncomfortable with the piece of wood you have, find another.
I'd say, make a bow with that piece of hickory. Place the bow in the best place on the stave that you can and go for it. You may have to make another one later but if you are like the rest of us you will do that anyway.
Another option would be to have someone cut the hickory stave into 1/8" backing strips and find a board that you can back with it. Pat
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Pat before I got on the computer I was thinking just that. If I didnt want failure I chose the wrong hobby. I already have started to rough the bow out. One thing about hickory is that it sure is tougher to rough out then my last Red oak board. It should be fun though. I will try to post pictures later tonight.
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pat! - this is OH SO TRUE what you are saying!!!
don't have 20 years of exterience but sure broke some wood alredy, and looked at it and thought: dang, learned something AGAIN!!
frank
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You don't have to worry about hurting anybodies feelings by not doing what we suggest. The way I do things is different than what a lot of guys do, you must make your own decisions. We are just trying to share a little of our experience. The one thing we can all agree on is that making a bow and breaking it is better than not making one at all.
I would make a backed bow out of it. Being that the bow is only 1 3/4" wide, I wouldn't try to split and splice. The finished board would be about 3/4" and awful hard to lay out a bow on. If the board is 9 feet,is it not possible to move the bow to get the big not off the bow or into the handle. I would take the pin knots in the limbs long before I would take the big not in the limb. I would keep a eye on the hickory pile for more boards. If you can find one with vertical grain and no run off, I would cut it into backing strips. You can make a bow with an average board if you get a good backing. Justin
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Justin, Using the area with the knot was my best option. The grain got all twisty towards the other end of the bow + it was kinda warped from that point on.
Last night while trying to rough it out I realized a mistake in dimensions. My tips were 5/8 wide. I am going to erase it and redo the dimensions . Fortunately I wasnt very far in the process so I didnt ruin anything.
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Ok made a template of the fades to use out of cardboard much easier to use.
I was using my surform with some success, worked bow width down to 1.5 inches with it. Realizing how much I had to do I got to work. About halfway through I decided it was time to break out the Angle grinder. I know that this site is primative I resisted as long as I could. I only did one end of my bow I got it to withing a .5 inch or .25 inch with angle grinder and then used rasp to get it right on the line. I took pics before I did that so it looks kinda bad.
Here is me prepped for angle grinder use, you would not believe the amount of dust kicked up by it! I had to quarentine my work area by parents orders to supress dust.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow003.jpg)
Limb, mind this was before I got the limb closer to lines. So it looks uneven
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow004.jpg)
The project ahead tommorow, the other limb.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow005.jpg)
Any comments?
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Is that the knot in the second picture, just beyond where the line starts to taper? If it is lets see a picture of the side of the limb were you cut into the knot area. I don't really think the knot is that bad. You are doing good. Keep going and be carefull using power tools. Its not that I have anything against using power tools, you can just mess up your project and your fingers a lot faster. Justin
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Ok here is the pic you requested.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow006.jpg)
I just finished the other limb. I dont think there is much point in posting it because it looks like the other.
Just for fun
directly after finishing today
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow007.jpg)
Got Dust?
After a long vaccum cleanup.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow008.jpg)
And last 4 years bucks. Mine and my dads
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow009.jpg)
Guess we like Euro mounts eh?
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It looks like the board was cut from along side the knot. I would make that the bell side of the bow and cut that dark area off when you thin the limb. Other than that I really think that is nothing to worry about. You are in good shape. Justin
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I didnt even think about that ;D. I was actually going to use the knot on the back. I might end up having a knotless bow!
I dont expect to get much more done until the weekend. I will be busy.
I think I am going to use these measurements on this web page to grind it down on the belly. I think it will be alright.
http://www.geocities.com/salampsio/oak4.htm
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Finished roughing out my bow today. I did it with the angle grinder outside since it was so warm ( 50). Boy am I glad I did that, even outside there was alot of dust. Cleanup was a breeze though ( pun intened)
I learned alot about the hunk of wood I am trying to make into a bow.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/Picture077.jpg)
^^See, it looks like very little early growth, at least I thought it did.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow015.jpg)
^^ See that little sliver at the top right. That is the only late growth in that entire limb. I think the other stuff is early growth because it was much more splintery when I started to round the edges. This really worries me.
Speaking of rounding the edges. I started to do that and finished up with only 1/3 of the bow done. I tried to get the limbs moving directly after roughing it out, and they werent moving at all. So I decided to make it more of a D shape belly to get them moving more. Unfortunately I ran out of time. Here are pics of where I am at right now.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow014.jpg)
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow013.jpg)
Last pic is of the area I rounded the edges and gave a slight D shape too.
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I know you are getting tempted to start hacking and grinding. Now is the time for patience. Don't get impatient or all your work will be lost. Justin
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Dito what Justin says! it is time for a rasp and scraper. Pat
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CC, any of the board cuts will make a bow. =plane sawn, // rift sawn, || sawn. I look at the edge grain.The straighter the better. I like the idea of putting the know on the belly. Is there any possibility of "chasing" a ring to make the back grain better? Jawge
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Jawge, I think there was before I started. Now that its all roughed out I dont think I can, although I will give it a look after school today.
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Crrrrrraaaaacccckkkkk, thats the noise my bow made when I pulled it alittle too far when tillering. .............
Well that would be a reasonable excuse.
What actually happend was I was rounding out the corners with a file, when I heard the crack. Limbs hadnt even been bent once and it still broke. Right as the home stretch was coming up I heard the noise no bowyer ever wants to hear. To add insult to injury it was the last section of the bow I had rounded off and gave slight D shape so I had just spent some time doing that.. Well thats bowmaking. I learned from it though, you can break a bow with out even moving the limbs, lol. It was fun, I want to thank you guys for convincing me to do this.. Now what should I do for my next bow ;).
area outlined in black is the crack.
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l127/jjrb715/HickoryBow.jpg)
Its just far enough from the tip so I cant make a bow out of the remains. I dont think I can glue it back together. I think I will try anyway
If there is success with the glue I will continue. If not maybe I will build a hickory backed red oak with some R/d, to practice for my osage core.
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I'm gonna have to try a board bow. My shed is starting to look like a lumber yard, but nothing there will be seasoned enough to be used for quite a while. Every time I walk by, the staves call to me unmercifully. If I don't start shaving something soon I'm going to need a therapist.
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Coca Cola, I'm sorry to hear that your stave broke. Do spend the time looking for a straight grained board. Do think about a bend in the handle board bow. Do persevere. I spent 3 years and 14 staves to get a hunting weight shooter. I learned quite a bit from each of those 14 staves. You learned quite a bit about boar choice from that stave too. You have a great attitude. Have fun. Jawge says, " If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin'." :) Jawge
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I should have read this whole thing before I put my last post up. Sorry to hear about your bow.