Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Cave Men only "Oooga Booga" => Topic started by: Dane on February 10, 2010, 11:36:54 am
-
Hi everyone. This is probably the first time I have posted in this section, and I hope someone can give me some insights into ideas for Mesolithic clothing.
A friend and I are moving in this direction and putting together a group, and want to explore this period of time in both Europe and North America, with a strong focus on Europe. Things to do are familiar with the primitive community, including fire making, hunting and trapping, body art, bow making, etc, but I want to immerse myself a bit more in how a person would have lived, his material culture, and in the context of living in the bush for short and maybe extended time periods.
I am making the assumptions that clothing had to be rugged, comfortable, and adapted to a hunting and gathering mode of life. Buckskin seems the most logical choice of skins, but what other game animals were hunted in Europe during this age? Equipment would include the brand-spanking new invention of the bow :) strke a light of pyrite and flint, stone tools (celts, knives, adze), and the atlatl would have, I think, still been a viable weapon for the hunt.
I'm picturing a skin shirt, fairly long and somewhat, but not too much tailored, either sewn with sinew or made with thongs that perhaps tie up the sides of the shirt? Breachclout and leggings for men. Possibly some sort of headgear. A mantle or cloak / robe for colder weather. Footgear was probably something like NA mos. I am also assuming some fringing would have been on the shirt, probably on the bottom heam. Welt seams, I am thinking.
I've look at the Otzi relics, and expect those will give me some clues to making this stuff. His quiver reminds me very much of a NA plains style quiver.
Thanks,
Dane
-
Are you familiar with these pics??
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
This is a link to a german television station
.swr.de/steinzeit/html/DAS_EXPERIMENT.html
Two and a half year ago the television station (SWR) had a report over 13 people living like a neolithic group.
Two members of this group are travelling in neolithic outfit over the alpes like Ötzi.
may be this is interesting for you....?
-
Frank, I have seen the first illustaration, the second is new to me. Thanks for sharing these.
Andrew, danke! Yes, that is exactly what I have in mind. The stone ages are far more complex and facinating than we are led to believe, with the image of the brutish "cave men" and all that.
Dane
-
@Dane
it is always interesting to talk with Henning and Ingo about their experience in living like stone age men.
-
Andew, those are the two guys who crossed the alps? I'd love to be in contact with them. They are doing exactly what I have in mind. Since my heritage is German and Northern European ancestry, as well as the Mediterranian, I feel that this is a good way to get in touch with my ancient roots. Plus, it is fun :)
I hope you are doing well, Andrew. I haven't seen any of your work in a while in the bow section.
Dane
-
I will ask Henning and/or Ingo....
And for the non posting pictures: My camera is out of order but now I have bought a new one and if the weather is turning in spring weather I will try to make new pics of my work....
-
James Parker(Robustus) reproduced what was found with Otzi, down to the grass cape. Pretty cool stuff. 8)
-
Pat, that is so cool. Otzi's shoes are in particular facinating workmanship, with the rope inners or frame. So is his quiver and that grass cape. I'd love to see James post some pictures of his work. Sad what happened to him, being apparently murdered with a shot in the back. One documentary theorizes that it was desire for his copper axe that may have caused someone to attack him.
Andrew, I sent you a message. Thanks!
Dane
-
From what I heard the point they found in him was crude and obviously his stuff was valuable to the thugs that shot him. I also heard he was alive when an avalanche covered him while he was hiding. It amazes me how much info can come from a 5000 year old corpse. They know what he ate for lunch the day he died.
-
It was a different world back then you might have been killed for an ax today you might loose your life for a pair of sneakers.
-
James Parker(Robustus) reproduced what was found with Otzi, down to the grass cape. Pretty cool stuff. 8)
Think we can get hin to model the 'getting dressed' picture series with his reproductions?? that would be way cool!
(He might want to skip the form on the very left... 8) 8) 8) )
-
... It amazes me how much info can come from a 5000 year old corpse. They know what he ate for lunch the day he died.
Amazes me it took them TEN YEARS to figure out there was a stone projectile in his back!!! They computer-tomographed the mummy maybe more than anything or anybody ever; sort of disastrous for the archaeologists in charge...!
-
I'm not so experienced in reproduction as Robustus I think - but I like to make a quiver like the ötziquiver. It is my next quiverproject... :)
-
The Otzi find is so remarkable, and as Pat said, they know what he ate the day before he died. They even know what streams he drank from and where he stopped before his last ascent up the mountain. They know he was involved in copper working, as well. I feel so bad for him, dying alone as he did in the high elevations. Whoever did it was a coward.
I too want to make an Otzi quiver, Andrew. It looks very straight forward.
Dane
-
If someone has some pictures of the Classic, James is wearing it there. Or it is on his web site in Classifieds. I have the picture but it is on my HP laptop the motherboard just crashed.
-
...
I too want to make an Otzi quiver, Andrew. It looks very straight forward.
...
It was made from goat hide, right??
-
Here is the link to the museum housing Otzi.
http://www.iceman.it/en
It is in German, Englsh, and Italian.
Dane
-
...
I too want to make an Otzi quiver, Andrew. It looks very straight forward.
...
Dane, here is a picture of it; I have a bigger one, but too big to post here. I also have a good pic of a reconstruction. If you are interested, PM me you email address and I'll mail it on to you. Actually anybody interested is welcome to do the same...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I think the quiver should be of chamois fur. In the pic of frank it looks like goat but somewhere I see a description and in the description was spoken of chamois...
and I have found a little drawing on my computer:
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Nice drawing, Andrew, very clear how it is designed.
Frank, the museum site has information on all the various things Otzi carried, materials made from, etc. The photos are not great, but the one you posted is excellent.
Dane
-
I have a few pics somewhere of reproductions of Utzi's gear at the Natural History Museum I took a few years ago in Washington. When I find them I'll post.
-
Yes actually it was chamois, not goat; I have a picture of one made alike that is goat...
-
I've seen a reference to ancient leather garments from Asia that are made of thin leather with slits cut into it to provide ventilation. It looked like expanded metal and I think the shoes and shirt of the individual were made from it. They were discovered in a frozen grave in Siberia....but can't remember anything else.
As a rule, if a garment was made of fur-on leather, the fur was placed on the inside...like Eskimo clothing. I'm not sure if the fur on Ozti's has was on the inside or outside, though.
I'm curious to know if there was (is) an easy way to keep leather clothing from being ruined by sweat? I would think that stone age man spend a lot of time keeping his leather clothing dry and relatively smell-free. Perhaps a thin coat of beeswax on the inside would help?
Interesting topic.
-
...
As a rule, if a garment was made of fur-on leather, the fur was placed on the inside...like Eskimo clothing. I'm not sure if the fur on Ozti's has was on the inside or outside, though.
...
Wasn't sure about that and googled for Inuit parka pics; they had fur inside, fur outside, and seems like fur both in- and outside.
It's an interesting question: how did they keep the cloth from being ruined by sweat; especially the fur parkas of the Inuit always appear as if they just came out of the Inuit fashion store...
-
Pat, I'd love to see those shots if you dont mind.
Patrick, I was just wondering what became of you. Never went anywhere, I am guessing :)
My limited understanding of brain tan is that it stiffens when wet, and has to be smoked or somehow worked to make it supple again. Is that true?
Eventually, I do want to get brain tan for making this clothing. For now, German tanned buckskin will do.
Do you guys think it fair to design backwards using Otzi's much more modern stuff for the mesolithic period? It does give us a very rare glimpse of what our ancestors were wearing in Europe way back then. It seems this touches on ideas and how they were spread, and how universal some things are, like that quiver of Otzi's. It looks like it came from a Souix warrior's gear circa 1800.
Dane
-
Inuit clothing, and other things you find in archological digs as well as still being used in harsh conditions is always so well made, and well taken care of. If you life depends on it, the craftsmanship will always be top rate. That is my thinking, anyway. Look how well Otzi's stuff survived 5000 years under ice.
Anyone have specs and dimensions of his bow? Yeah, I know I am hijacking my own thread, but his bow is facinating. The blood that may have been used as protection alone is an intersting notion we modern bow makers dont try often enough :)
Dane
-
His bow was an uncompleted stave I believe.
-
My understanding as well, Pat, but does anyone know what it was spectulated to look like when he (or someone) completed it? It was yew, like his axe handle, and there was evidence of the tools used on the bow. Strange it was coated in blood if it was a work in progress, unless he didnt plan to work on it for a while, maybe.
Strange he was carrying an unfinished stave and few useable arrows. I wonder if Otzi had to leave in a hurry?
Dane
-
Dane, These are the pics of the Utzi reproduction in the Natural History Museum in Washington, DC
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@Pat B
Great pics :)
-
Thanks for putting these up Pat. Very cool outfit, especially the hat and the grass cape.
Dane
-
From what I've read on the Mesolithic, weaving was well established, so the grass cape would be appropriate. The main difference between Paleolithic and Mesolithic seems to be the disappearance of the megafauna, which probably explains the adoption of the bow over the atlatl as the game animals became smaller. I believe that clothing likely varied more by region than it did by time period. Much of Otzi's gear wouldn't have been out of place in North America 150 years ago. What works for a given climate works, and stitched clothing dates back to the Paleolithic. Textiles didn't become dominant until later in the Neolithic, and not until after Otzi's time, in northwestern Europe. That's evidenced by the fact that most of what he wore were skins. You could pull from a wide variety of sources and probably be accurate just by avoiding too many "modern" decorative practices, specific to NA peoples, like quilling and fringe. The term Mesolithic doesn't seem to apply to the Americas, I believe it's Archaic here. Artwork in Mesolithic Europe became more stylized pictograph, as opposed to the realism of the Paleolithic cave paintings, and more often depicted humans than animals. Some archaeologists see it as the beginnings of writing, like primitive hieroglyphics. I'm not sure what there is for any surviving evidence of clothing decoration from that time. Well, good luck with this, sounds like you'll have alot of fun. I used to do Medieval reenactment, but I had always wished there were Paleolithic reenactment groups.
-
Dane, your one comment made this question pop into my mind...
Any reason why people seem to think Otzi was the victim? Could he have been the aggressor and got shot in the process? Did he steal the axe and that's why he had it and all the other valuables on him?? Anyway, good luck with this project, sounds interesting.
-
...
Any reason why people seem to think Otzi was the victim? Could he have been the aggressor and got shot in the process? Did he steal the axe and that's why he had it and all the other valuables on him?? A...
Very similar thoughts have crossed my mind before!
-
They found trace amounts of asenic on him or in him, so they theorize he worked with copper, maybe even smelted or cast it, so it seems resonable that he was the owner of the axe. That would have been a very desirable thing to have. Perhaps someone was trying to steal it from him, and was willing to shoot him.
Dane
-
Good stuff, Jude. A bit part of what attracts me to the mesolithic period is that it is on the cusp of animal husbandry, agriculture, and the development of "civilization." As Steve Watts puts it, the taming of animals tamed humans, and you cant go wild again, only feril.
I think too taht if you took a Mesolithic human and placed him in the archaic period here in NA, he would fit right in. Skin clothing is pretty basic in function and design across cultures and periods, I am guessing. I do understand that woven fabric may date back to the neaderthals. It is ancient, and woven leather belts, and perhaps grass clothing and mats goes back a very long ways, too. These guys were far more advanced then popular images would have us believe, with the "cave men" you see in insurance commercials, and Chaka in Land of the Lost, Flintstones, etc (though they did have traffic lights and cars, lol).
Mesolithic is attractive, too, as we have bow technology. Atlatls I think still play a part, and didnt suddently disappear as soon as someone developed the bow.
Okay, off to watch the olympics. Thanks for the interest, you guys.
Dane
From what I've read on the Mesolithic, weaving was well established, so the grass cape would be appropriate. The main difference between Paleolithic and Mesolithic seems to be the disappearance of the megafauna, which probably explains the adoption of the bow over the atlatl as the game animals became smaller. I believe that clothing likely varied more by region than it did by time period. Much of Otzi's gear wouldn't have been out of place in North America 150 years ago. What works for a given climate works, and stitched clothing dates back to the Paleolithic. Textiles didn't become dominant until later in the Neolithic, and not until after Otzi's time, in northwestern Europe. That's evidenced by the fact that most of what he wore were skins. You could pull from a wide variety of sources and probably be accurate just by avoiding too many "modern" decorative practices, specific to NA peoples, like quilling and fringe. The term Mesolithic doesn't seem to apply to the Americas, I believe it's Archaic here. Artwork in Mesolithic Europe became more stylized pictograph, as opposed to the realism of the Paleolithic cave paintings, and more often depicted humans than animals. Some archaeologists see it as the beginnings of writing, like primitive hieroglyphics. I'm not sure what there is for any surviving evidence of clothing decoration from that time. Well, good luck with this, sounds like you'll have alot of fun. I used to do Medieval reenactment, but I had always wished there were Paleolithic reenactment groups.
-
Here you can see my new Ötziquiver :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Really nice Andrew! Is that chamois??
-
@medicinewheel
yes this is a winterfur of chamois. I think a summerfur is easier to work, cause the hairs are not so long and the undercoat in the winterfur is very thick and and compact.
The quiver is mostly worked out with very simple tools (a very sharp kitchen knife, a needle for braiding, an a sharpend skrew driver used as a awl. Only the holes in the stiffener sapling and in the antler pieces are made with a powerdrill and with more patience I would have used a handdrill....)
-
Very nice, Andreas. I did join the site and the buildalong is easy enough to follow along, so I wont have any problems. I will of course ask questions if I need to. I like the extra flap to keep the arrows in, too.
Dane
-
I like the quiver. Is the flap to stop the rain from getting onto the feathers?
-
@cromm
yes, the flap of deerhide is to stop the rain from getting onto the feathers. And the flap out of the fur is to stop the arrows from falling out, when you walking, running or hold the quiver headside down and so on ;)
-
maybe i should post some logic on the otzi story... theres evidence he also farmed goats... so having worked with copper, raised goats, ask yourself what he was doing in the glaciers?... theyre inhospitable now, even moreso then, the only reason someone would go into these regions is to deter someone from following.. since his bowstave was unfinished, being that far in the mountains would have been even worse
so most likely.. something happened, most likey broke, or was accused of breaking some law, and hastily grabbed his tools including an unfinished bowstave, and fled into the mountains planning to complete the bow when he was in the clear... if whoever killed him was just some criminal after his goods, he would have taken the tools
also, from what i could gather the profile of the otzi bow probably would have been a standard D-shape longbow which my guess is would have been pretty similar to the english longbow, which wasnt uncommon throughout europe before and after the roman empire, and throughout regions that werent part of the empire (romans themselves used composite recurves)
-
The world was and is a hard place.Go to Mid-Africa or Afganistan now,carrying good weapons and crossing country alone and see just what happens, For that matter,walk thru any urban slum alone and see what happens,(even wolves tread lightly). Nothing wrong with it,it has always been the way.
Can't beat a breach-clothe and a vest with good pockets in the warm,add leggings and a pullover for cool.And of course,good moc's ' Frank