Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pappy on March 26, 2007, 12:16:22 pm
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Well I think we finely got it.We got it hot with steam and it worked just like you said it would.
I think there was 5/6 done this weekend. ;D
Pappy
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Wow! :o
That is, what from now we call a Recurve. ;D
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can't wait to see a full draw pic on that bow!
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Now that's a recurve :o I don't think I've ever seen that much curve on a bow. Pappy, don't carry that bow like that around here. Even out of season its not safe ;D
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I was going to make a comment about a big old Texas Longhorn but you took all the fun out of it for me Pappy. :'( Now I'll have to think of something else to say. Are you going to leave that sucker or deflex it?
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Hey Pappy, I seen some of your reletives out in the field while I was there in Texas over the weekend.....At least I think they were related cause the horns looked just the same......lol,,,,
Please tell me that is a stack of firewood in the background and not a stack of staves,,,,,,,,LOl,,,,,Keenan
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Hay Keenan:
That in the background is firewood. I have seen their stack of staves... It is much much bigger!!!! No kidding
Pappy: I am going to bring an Osage stave to the classic to have recurved like that.
David
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Yes them are stave's,but ridge is right we have a stack muck bigger than that.Them are just kind of the culls,just kidding. ;D We don't plane on deflexing them,this is Ryano method of building a recurve so when he gets down in May he is going to have to show us a thing or 3 about how in the world you go about tillering them. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, careful...if Ryan hears we're going to put him to work, he may not come down! ;D
I tried to copy the forms as closely as I could from pictures Ryan had posted on a build along he did. Made both a working recurve form and a static recurve form. We bent three bows across the working recurve and also one static this weekend. Planning on bending several more this next weekend. Pretty cool the first time to see that wood take such an extreme bend without going...snap!
I tried to get Pappy to place a caption on one of those pictures..."how many rednecks does it take to recurve a bow!". ;D
It was a lot of fun, now just to learn the best way to tiller them. ;)
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greg, how many rednecks will it take to brace that beast for the first time? you guys are having way to much fun ;D
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Dustybaer,
We'll definitely be using a bow stringer getting it to brace. Hopefullly I'll be the only redneck required for that, but who knows? ;D
I'm hoping Ryan or whoever with experience will get in on this string and give us some good advice! ;)
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Yep Ryan is the master at those curves.
can't wait to see what you get out of this one Pappy ;)
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LoL.... :-[ :D Your welcome guys but dont thank me yet, thank me when you got a shooter out it!
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Thats how all my bows look. But they are facing the other direction.
Will be interested to see this bow demo-tillered.
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I was just looking at your pictures and it looks like you already cut your handle narrow, I have found it better to leave it full width untill you get the bow tillered. I had a problem once with one that was narrowed in the handle before tillering. I had it clamped in the vise pulling on the tip to get it to tillered to brace and the limb was to stiff and it broke right where the fade tapered into the handle. The one's you already did should be ok just be careful to get the outer part of the limb working before you pull on it to hard. Good luck! I'll be happy to help you guys if I can while I'm down there. ;D
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Tom, thats almost a exact copy of the form I use for my working curves, like the one that won bow of the month in jan. It will lose quite a bit of that reflex.. ;)
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One thing that might help you on that, I did several a few years ago, but the string will approach different angles to that recurve as it unfolds, When you first start to draw it there wont be much pressure, but as different parts of the limbs approach 90 degrees that potion of the limb will suddenly have a lot more pressure, you almost have to tiller each section at it's close to 90 degree position, or just pull on the tip by hand and get your self a little bend going that way before you actually string it. Curious to see how it comes out, they are very challenging. Steve
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Nice curves!Can't wait to see it finished.Your steaming contraption is a neat set up,I think I'm going to copy it if you don't mind?
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That one will give you fits, trust me
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1421-1.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1422.jpg)
It can be done. It will look something like this when your done.
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This what the static should look like.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1912.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1887.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1890.jpg)
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Finished full draw static recurve
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1921-1.jpg)
Finished full draw working recurve
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Ryano123/100_1796.jpg)
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Not trying to rob Pappy's string here...we're in on this together. All these bows had been roughed in for a good while, not with the intention of making recurves from them. Basically they were all spliced in the handle osage billets where I had been practicing handle splicing. I decided to give them away to friends in the club, so we all could attempt making recurves from them. This is new to us, so I thought it would be a good way to get us trying out something new. Also with Ryan coming to the Classic, it should be a great opportunity for us to learn from a master! ;)
I recalled Ryan mentioning that he left his handle shaping for last, but we already had these bows to work with. If we have trouble with some of them, I'm sure we'll learn from it...always more wood. :)
We appreciate any suggestions any of you can give us. Mostly worried about getting the bows to brace. After that we can get them on the tillering tree and should be at least more in a comfort zone for us. They were floor tillered when we steamed them. Not used to Ryans method of putting the handle in the vise and pulling on the tip. By only being able to see one limb bending at a time, looks like it could be some problems balancing the limbs without having done it before? Guess that's how you learn though...dive in! ;D
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Ryan, you posted those pics while I was writing my book on the last post. ;D Great looking bows, certainly hope we can do the same. We jumped the easy hurtle of steaming them, I think the tillering is going to be much more difficult. Also these bows are starting their taper to the tips at mid limb. If I was making one from scratch with the highest hopes of success, I probably would have left the limbs wide closer to the tips to cut back on potential propellar. I bet these bows really have to have the limbs lined up well and without propellar with the stress on them. I remember you had said you tweak the limbs sometimes with dry heat as needed.
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Yep Greg, some times two or three times before I get the string to stay on....Getting them to brace isnt so hard, the vise is the best method Ive found so far. Take thickness measurements from side to sid if you need to to keep them close to balanced. I just tiller enough to get it bending fairly even after recurving, then I switch to the long string and tillering rack. If it seems fairly balanced then I get a string on it asap, corect the string alignment if need be and then tiller with the short string. ;D
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Sounds easy enough.Ha!!! ;D.Ryan I had thought about getting one braced first ,then recurve it,That is the way I do mine with the tip turned up and it makes it much easier to get to first brace,Just asking,what do you think about that. :)?
Pappy
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All these bows have been on forms at least once for straightening and reflexing. Hopefully there won't be a lot of tweaking required, but I'm sure there will be some. I had 8 bows that we're planning to recurve and work on. I would think that the static recurve might be slightly easier to tiller, but don't know for sure. Anyone have a preference between working recurve and static recurve in regards to performance?
Badger, I think you were referring to starting the tiller on the outer limbs and working your way in prior to getting on the tillering tree?
Any problem with a 55-60 lb. osage recurve holding up long term?
Have you any suggestions on how best to know when you're ready for the tillering tree from a poundage standpoint? I'm afraid it would be very easy to be fooled into thinking you had more weight then you do if you stay on the vise to long. What best way to judge that? ???
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Greg, on a working recurve like that when the string is at lower angles to different parts of the string it has to be much stiffer because as soon as the limb starts to open up the angle will change drasticly and could cause the limb to break at that point. The closer your string is to 90 degrees in relation to any point of the limb thats the point the stress ill be highest at that point in the limb, on a straight bow the angle is a straight line progression and can easily be judged, on a working recurve you kind of have to feel your way through it staying aware of the string angle to the area in your curve that you are concerned with bending. Steve
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I never tried it that way pappy, it might help some but I don't know how much. You definitely don't want to try that with a static curve. I like to get the limbs bending even down to the base of the curve at brace and then tiller the outer limbs to just slightly open up at full draw. I know it seems hard but its really not that bad. Greg, yes a static is a bit easier to tiller, and keep the string aligned
;DGreg, on a working recurve like that when the string is at lower angles to different parts of the string it has to be much stiffer because as soon as the limb starts to open up the angle will change drasticly and could cause the limb to break at that point. The closer your string is to 90 degrees in relation to any point of the limb thats the point the stress ill be highest at that point in the limb, on a straight bow the angle is a straight line progression and can easily be judged, on a working recurve you kind of have to feel your way through it staying aware of the string angle to the area in your curve that you are concerned with bending. Steve
Steve, your right about the feel your way through it.....all that technical crap just makes it sound way harder than it really is....Some times it requires less thought and more action....lol.. ::)
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Pappy,
Those tips are only 18" in front of the handle. Are you sure it will perform? ;D Wow!
J. D. Duff
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Thanks Badger and Ryan, we'll keep your recommendations in mind when we get ready to tackle one of these.
Oh yeah, how long after steaming should we wait until we start tillering? :)
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I'd give it a week or so in a warm dry envirment. ;D
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Thanks guys,we will work through it,Ryan I think I will try one after brace and let yall know how it works.JD I think it will if we can get a string on it. ;D
Pappy
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I'm not trying to argue, so don't get the wrong impression. Just curious if most of the recurve is going to pull out or if the working section is going to be that short? Also if that is a copy of Ryan's form, why is it so different? Wouldn't it be better to use a smaller radius and leave a little more recurve in it? Just trying to stimulate conversation and learn something. Justin
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I am assuming justin that a lot of it will pull out.We will let you know when we get one tillered.
I know some of it comes out when I bend backset in them and not as much when I turn up the tips. :)
Pappy
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I think that this is the bow that Ryan used that shape form on:
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Looks like to me it held a lot of it.I don't expect it to hold it all anyway.I have never bent one that radical but from what I have seen on other bends on all wood bows it will hold about 1/2 of what
you put in them maybe a little more.That is why when I straighten one I go more than it needs and it will come out about where you want it. :)
Pappy
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Justin, we and Ryan have two different forms...one for working recurve and one for static recurve. I attempted to match them as close as I could from some dimensioning Ryan had posted, and visually looking at the forms and comparing the arc's. So far we've only used the static recurve form on one bow, and Pappy wasn't there with his camera to take pictures of that bow. All the pictures you've seen thus far from us were of a bow off the working recurve form. The picture of Ryan's bow you posted was of a static recurve I'm pretty sure. Look at how the tips are thick for 6" or so.
Beyond that, I probably can't answer much and Ryan will have to jump in here. We havn't experienced tillering one of these jewels yet. ;D
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Yea, I understand now that Hillbilly posted the other pictures. I was confused for a minute, but I am going to blame that on Ryan for posting the wrong recurve. ;D Justin
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Justin, actually I posted both because he said they were doing both working and static. Look again at the pictures they are labeled "static" and" Working" ;D
As I said earlier you lose a lot of the reflex, what length did you make the blanks ?
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Ryan ,They are 64-66 for the most part.There may be a 62 in the bunch.I am going to have mine ready to bend by the weekend so I am anxious to see how it will work out.I expected to loose a lot of it as I have said you always loose close to half when you straighting one so I don't see the difference only maybe a little more stress.If they hold as much as yours I will be very pleased. :)
Pappy
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At those lengths for your draw it will probally hold more reflex than mine. You might want to consider cutting down the 66"er I'm afraid it might shake your teeth out. Ive never tried that design on a longer bow. All of mine have been 58"ers
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I was thinking about that on mine at least,Now I will :)
Pappy
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Justin, I am seeing it the same way you are, and just as you said, not trying to influence anything just enjoying the ride here. I would be curious as to the mass on a bow like this, I used to build quite a few of them and had to keep them pretty wide to hold the tip set back. Mark St Louis has probably built more highly reflexed recurves than anyone I know of kind of wondering what his thoughts are on the length here. I just did a mass projection with 12" reflex and it is asking for like 27 oz for a 60# bow, Loosing half that reflex would bring it down to about 23 oz. Steve
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You guys bring up a good point on the bow length. We were so fired up about getting them to recurve on the form that we didn't give much thought to bow length. For the four bows that we've already steamed and recurved...if we cut them back from 64" to around 58", we're going to lose quite a bit of the recurve. Should they be resteamed and put back on the form after they're shortened? ???
Badger, on the recurve bows you made...were they unbacked? Also what lengths were you making them?
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Greg, I made mine from about 54" to 68". Most of mine were unbacked when I used osage. I could almost always get the wood to make the draw length but was never happy with the belly cells that got crushed with that much reflex. Wood is designed for about 1% stretch and compress. I think sinew is more effective in highly reflexed designs. But each guy can get different results. I like the bow that Ryan posted above, a little less radical. Steve
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Now I am confused again. The huge amount of reflex is shortening the working section. The small working section is doing huge amounts of bending just to get it braced. Why would you want to shorten the working area by cutting then re-bending. If it is recurved that far, I would leave the length long. I like the smaller recurve that Ryan did also. Justin
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oh my gawd!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Justin, I am definitely a rookie at this recurving...but without any more educated replies at this point to your question, here's my two cents worth.
I think the working recurve is contibuting at least 3/4 of it's length to bending/working. Ryan had mentioned the outer predominately recurved section of the limb to tiller until it just begins to start opening up. I'm guessing you'd still leave the last 4" or so almost static to the tips? I guess the key is to get that section of the limb working some, but not to the point where it loses much of the recurve. Needs to retain the recurve memory to snap back in place and spit those arrows! ;D
On the static recurve, most of the limb is bending similar to a typical flat bow, the last 6" or so is completely nonbending. Looks like that last 6" on Ryan's static is narrowed nicely to the tips, but retains the static posture from a thicker than normal back to belly thickness.
Could be that all I've said above is nonsense, but with my lack of experience with recurving Ryan style...it's how I'm evaluating it at this point. ;)
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One thing you nobody can argue with is that Ryan knows what he is doing and builds some pretty recurves. Justin
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Yeah, I agree with you Justin. That's why I've attempted to copy his forms and try and learn as much as I can about his techniques.
Ryan probably thinks we all just like him for the great recurve selfbows he makes! ;D
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oh my gawd!!!!!!!!!!!!
??? what???
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I cut mine off last night to 57 n-n and got it ready to brace.I plan on doing that today,then
do any straighting it needs and then recurve it and see what happens,any more comments on bracing it first and then re curving it,what problems am I looking at having by doing this. ???
Pappy
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Thanks For the nice words guys. :-[ Its really not all that hard it just takes patience.
Greg, Sounds like your heading in the right direction. I would like to see one thats like 62" or 64" never tried a longer one, but that doesn't mean it wouldnt work out nicely. I just think 66" is to long for any osage bow unless it has incredibly narrow tips. Plus most of the benefit of a recurve is to get a smoother draw out of a shorter piece of wood.
Pappy, Like I said before,I never tried it that way but I don't see why it wouldn't work as long as you leave the tips thick enough...
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Ryan, you ever get to steaming several bows and forget to replenish the water supply or am I the only one wearing that badge of honor! ;D Extremely well done osage limb anyone? See the "Life is Good" thread under Primitive musings for a laugh! ;)
Pappy and I worked on one of the recurves Saturday. I had cut it off to 58" ntn, which allowed a wider tip to tweak for alignment if needed. Got the limbs bending pretty good out of the fades, and just beginning to get the recurve section to open up. I'm planning to cut string notches in it this evening, up until now have only bent the limbs while vised.
We had a splinter pop up, which we glued down and wrapped...I think it will hold since we've worked the limb quite a bit since we wrapped it. I'm getting excited and nervous at the same time. Getting to the point where it's closing in on brace, and really don't want it to blow. As short and recurved as the limbs are, I'm just not used to one bending so much this early in the game. whew! :D
My digital camera is on the blink or I would post some pics, had to take pictures with my 35mm and have them put on a disc for the copperhead bow I'm getting ready to post.