Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: agd68 on August 23, 2010, 11:41:17 am
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Hey All.
A fellow archer and I are disagreeing on the grip old English archers used. One says three finger split grip. The other says they only used the first two fingers in a split grip. Does anyone know what style they used ?
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Please define "Old English Archer." If you're referring to medieval archers, like those of the Hundred Year War era, they used a split two finger draw.
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Hey guys,
I am a very old English archer and I use 3 fingers split.
Andrew
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I believe both a three fingered and a two fingered draw were used. Doesn't Ascham talk of the use of three fingers? Also didn't the various French laws concerning the removal of captured English Archer's fingers variously talk of two or three? Could of course be wrong on both accounts but have dredged them up from the old memory.
Legend tells us of the two fingered draw and the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact.
Having thought about my first statement regarding Ascham I decided to dust off my copy of the book and see if my memory was correct so I edited this response and added the following:
Ascham, in Toxophilus book 11 page 101 in the 1990 Simon Archery edition, says:
"And when a man shooteth, the might of his shoot liest on the foremost finger, and on the ringman: for the middle finger which is longest, like a lubber, starteth back, and beareth no weight of the string in a manner at all"
Thus a three fingered draw in which the middle finger does very little work.
Craig
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I believe both a three fingered and a two fingered draw were used. Doesn't Ascham talk of the use of three fingers? Also didn't the various French laws concerning the removal of captured English Archer's fingers variously talk of two or three? Could of course be wrong on both accounts but have dredged them up from the old memory.
Legend tells us of the two fingered draw and the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact.
Ascham, in Toxophilus book 11 page 101 in the 1990 Simon Archery edition, says:
"And when a man shooteth, the might of his shoot liest on the foremost finger, and on the ringman: for the middle finger which is longest, like a lubber, starteth back, and beareth no weight of the string in a manner at all"
Thus a three fingered draw in which the middle finger does very little work.
Craig
It is clear that the three finger draw was used and the two finger draw as well, mostly with smallbows. Your quote from Ascham is backed up by ‘Lartdarcherie” which tells us thet the string should be taken on the second joint of the forefinger and the firsr joint of the ring finger. This makes it clear that the same finger placement was used in both England and France,
BTW; the “two fingered salute” might better be classified as urban myth than legend. I believe soccer hooligans get the credit for that one.
Cheers.
Erik
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Hi Erik,
BTW; the “two fingered salute” might better be classified as urban myth than legend. I believe soccer hooligans get the credit for that one.
It was around a long time before soccer hooligans, as we know them today, so they cannot have the credit for it.
I'm not sure you are correct dismissing the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact as a myth. The French definitely had statutes requiring the removal of fingers from the drawing hands of captured English Archers and one can well imagine the taunts that such a law would elicit from the English victors.
Erik, if you have an English translation of "Le livre du Roy Modus et de la Royne Racio" in electronic format I would appreciate a copy, I only have a French version and my school boy French is not really up to it.
Craig.
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Hi Erik,
BTW; the “two fingered salute” might better be classified as urban myth than legend. I believe soccer hooligans get the credit for that one.
It was around a long time before soccer hooligans, as we know them today, so they cannot have the credit for it.
I'm not sure you are correct dismissing the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact as a myth. The French definitely had statutes requiring the removal of fingers from the drawing hands of captured English Archers and one can well imagine the taunts that such a law would elicit from the English victors.
Erik, if you have an English translation of "Le livre du Roy Modus et de la Royne Racio" in electronic format I would appreciate a copy, I only have a French version and my school boy French is not really up to it.
Craig.
Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject. My understanding is that English kings warned their archers about Frenchmen or Scots cutting of fingers to give the archers a reason to fight to the death. Actually, archers, not being worth a ransom, would probably be killed if captured anyway. Sorry, I don’t have a copy of Roi Modus but I would appreciate seeing the French description of the bows if you could send it. My daughter is fluently bi-lingual.
Cheers,
Erik
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Hi Erik
Re Roi Modus, I thought you had a copy as you quote it regularly both here and on other pages of the net. There are numerous copies freely available on the net including one from Google books, see http://www.google.com/books?id=gZ4OAAAAQAAJ.
Craig
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Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject
Erik I quote from Wikipedia
Origins
An early recorded use of the 'two-fingered salute' is in the Macclesfield Psalter of c.1330 (in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge), being made by a glove in the Psalter’s marginalia.[5]
According to a popular legend the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of longbowmen fighting in the English army at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War.[5][15] The story claims that the French claimed that they would cut off the arrow-shooting fingers of all the English and Welsh longbowmen after they had won the battle at Agincourt.[16] But the English came out victorious and showed off their two fingers, still intact. Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the English side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech.[17] If this is correct it confirms that the story was around at the time of Agincourt, although it doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the 'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English archers at that battle.
The first definitive known reference to the ‘V-sign’ in French is in the works of François Rabelais, a sixteenth-century satirist.[18]
It was not until the start of the 20th century that clear evidence of the use of insulting V sign in England became available, when in 1901 a worker outside Parkgate ironworks in Rotherham used the gesture, (captured on the film), to indicate he did not like being filmed.[19] Peter Opie interviewed children in the 1950s and observed in The Lore And Language Of Schoolchildren that the much older thumbing of the nose (cock-a-snook) had been replaced by the V-sign as the most common insulting gesture used in the playground.[10]
Desmond Morris discussed various possible origins of the V sign in Gestures: Their Origins and Distribution, (published 1979) and came to no definite conclusion:
because of the strong taboo associated with the gesture (its public use has often been heavily penalized). As a result, there is a tendency to shy away from discussing it in detail. It is "known to be dirty" and is passed on from generation to generation by people who simply accept it as a recognized obscenity without bothering to analyse it... Several of the rival claims are equally appealing. The truth is that we will probably never know...
—Desmond Morris[10]
I it therefore was in use in 1330, I doubt soccer hooligans were around then.
If used in 1901 by a worker outside Parkgate ironworks in Rotherham the gesture is highly unlikely to have been invented then.
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✌✌ The were hooliganism related to chariot racing in byzantine. So football riots predate football.✌✌
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_racing
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jkekoni,
Don't you mean chariot riots predate football?????
By the way, the original "footbal"l game was more of a riot than anything else with hoards of "players" doing almost anything to move the ball towards their opponents goal, so football hooliganism actually predates the game as it is known today.
The hand sign as you show it is actually the victory sign as popularised by Sir Winston Churchill during world war 2.
Craig.
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I have seen a few English contemporary depictions of 3-fringered draw. The Beverly Minster carving of an archer on the choir stalls springs to mind.
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Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject
Erik I quote from Wikipedia
Craig: I quote from your quote."According to a popular legend the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestuit doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the 'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English archers at that battle."
I believe there is no record implying that the archers of Agincourt used the “two fingered salute” nor any French statutes about the finger amputations. Nonetheless I am quite impressed by your research. Could you [or anyone else] find this ? What is the source of the report of archers cracking an oyster shell at 80 yards and piercing an open hand at 100 yards ?
Thank you for the Roi Modus reference. I have relied on the translaion on bowhunting in Hansard’s ‘Book of Archery’ in archery library.
RE Two or three finger draw. John Gower’s book ‘Vox Clamantis’ was published 1400 in two editions, one showing him drawing a longbow with three fingers, and another showing him drawing a shorter smallbow with two fingers. I think that is the way it usually works.
Erik
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Eric,
Not able so far to find much more, however below is an excerpt from contemporary Burgundian chronicler Jean de Wavrin's (or Jehan de Waurin's) work:
“En oultre leur disoit et remoustrait comment les Francois se vantoient que tous les archiers Anglois qui seroient prins feroient copper trois doitz de la main dextre adfin que de leur trait jamais homme ne cheval ne tuassent. Teles admonitions et pluiseurs autres que toutes ne puis escripe fist lors le roy d’Angleterre a ses gens.”
apparently in English this reads:
“And further he told them and explained how the French were boasting that they would cut off three fingers of the right hand of all the archers that should be taken prisoners to the end that neither man nor horse should ever again be killed with their arrows. Such exhortations and many others, which cannot all be written, the King of England addressed to his men”.
See http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50254g.image.f8
So contemporary source(s) agree that the archers were told the French would cut off their fingers, so one goes back to the taunts that such a threat (be it true or false) would elicit from the English victors.
Craig.
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Eric,
Not able so far to find much more, however below is an excerpt from contemporary Burgundian chronicler Jean de Wavrin's (or Jehan de Waurin's) work:
“En oultre leur disoit et remoustrait comment les Francois se vantoient que tous les archiers Anglois qui seroient prins feroient copper trois doitz de la main dextre adfin que de leur trait jamais homme ne cheval ne tuassent. Teles admonitions et pluiseurs autres que toutes ne puis escripe fist lors le roy d’Angleterre a ses gens.”
apparently in English this reads:
“And further he told them and explained how the French were boasting that they would cut off three fingers of the right hand of all the archers that should be taken prisoners to the end that neither man nor horse should ever again be killed with their arrows. Such exhortations and many others, which cannot all be written, the King of England addressed to his men”.
See http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50254g.image.f8
So contemporary source(s) agree that the archers were told the French would cut off their fingers, so one goes back to the taunts that such a threat (be it true or false) would elicit from the English victors.
Craig.
De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?
Erik
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De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?
MMM! not necessary, If an archer used 2 fingers then no matter what or how many fingers were going to be chopped off by the dastardly French >:D, the archer would probably only wave the two he used, or, if the original "salute " were a three fingered one, it could easily have morphed over the years to a two fingered one, especially as so may people believe that the Agincourt archers used only two fingers and this may have lead to a "correction" in the gesture.
Craig.
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De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?
MMM! not necessary, If an archer used 2 fingers then no matter what or how many fingers were going to be chopped off by the dastardly French >:D, the archer would probably only wave the two he used, or, if the original "salute " were a three fingered one, it could easily have morphed over the years to a two fingered one, especially as so may people believe that the Agincourt archers used only two fingers and this may have lead to a "correction" in the gesture.
Craig.
To add to the idle speculation, if the original “salute” were a one fingered one, it could easily have morphed into a two fingered one. But let’s try something wild, like looking at the evidence. RE“if an archer used. two fingers” We are considering men using very powerful longbows. Wavrin=three fingers Toxophilus=three fingers. Roi Modus=three fingers, Lartdarcherie=three fingers. while ??=two fingers. Sorry, I don’t have a reference for that one.No doubt a two finger advocate will supply one, but please no the late mediaeval illustrations for Froissart. Anyone who thinks a warbow archer Would draw with two
fingertips is welcome to try it.
Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period. Where does this story come from anyway? I consider it an urban myth. Prove me wrong. Evidence please, not more speculation.
Erik
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Erik,
I wiil put it to you to prove the converse, evidence please, you cannot any more that anyone can prove it to be true. We began this discussion saying legend tells us... legends are just that, stories that may contain a grain of truth or may not.
As for the use of a two fingered draw, your reasoning is flawed just because a handful of writers sat use 3 fingers does not make it so, I suggest you take a close look at paintings, drawings and illustrations from the period. For instance:
Lutterel Psalter: two fingers, Marterdom of St Edmund by Scandinavian raiders, 13th century illustration shown on page 31 of "Longbow" two fingers;Archers in the lower boarder of Bayeux Tapestry; "Longbow pages 32 and 33, at least 2 can be seen using 2 fingers the others seem to use one: Illustration of John Gower shooting a longbow 15th C. page 52 "Longbow", two fingers:Longbowmen shown in a sea fight Warwick Pageant, page 58 Longbow, two fingers: Illustration of longbowmen, crossbowmen and guns at a siege shown on page 90 of longbow, both right handed longbow men in the centre appear to be using two fingers: Illustration of English archers attacking a French Town, shown in the centre pages of Longbow, shows 4 archers shooting at least two of which can be clearly seen using 2 fingers:Illustration of English longbowmen against French crossbows; again from centre pages of longbow the only longbow archer who's draw hand can be seen in the process of drawing is using two fingers: on the following central pages of Longbow illustrations of longbow men at Potiiers are using 2 fingers as are the longbow men being besieged by Jeanne d'Arc are shown using 2 fingers.
Now all of those instances came from one book, I could go on and look at the other works and quote them but that would be boring.
As for Ascham. the author of Roi Modus, and the author of Lartdarcherie most are books written for the rich who probably did not exercise in the Bow to the same manner as the common Archer and were probably nowhere near as strong. However as I have said before and I believe you have agreed both two fingered and three fingered releases were used so the fact someone write about a certain way does not make it universal.
It is clear that the three finger draw was used and the two finger draw as well
Or are you changing your mind now?
Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period.
Not sure what you are trying to say here, none of these writings talk of any taunts given by the victors to the vanquished, do you seriously believe that having slaughtered the pride of France, the people who prior to the battle flew the Oriflame, which was a declaration of no quarter, a direction from the King of France to his Hoard to kill all enemies of France, that these men who had heard the French masses jeering at them would not return the favour? Why would it have been reported by those who wrote of the victory, if it happened it would have been one thing amongst many and a thing done by the common soldier not something done by one of the Lords who's exploits were regarded as being worthy of mention.
Erick I do not say it definitely happened but that I see no reason why it didn't, it certainly fits with what one would expect from such people.
Craig.
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Erik,
I wiil put it to you to prove the converse, evidence please, you cannot any more that anyone can prove it to be true. We began this discussion saying legend tells us... legends are just that, stories that may contain a grain of truth or may not.
As for the use of a two fingered draw, your reasoning is flawed just because a handful of writers sat use 3 fingers does not make it so, I suggest you take a close look at paintings, drawings and illustrations from the period. For instance:
Lutterel Psalter: two fingers, Marterdom of St Edmund by Scandinavian raiders, 13th century illustration shown on page 31 of "Longbow" two fingers;Archers in the lower boarder of Bayeux Tapestry; "Longbow pages 32 and 33, at least 2 can be seen using 2 fingers the others seem to use one: Illustration of John Gower shooting a longbow 15th C. page 52 "Longbow", two fingers:Longbowmen shown in a sea fight Warwick Pageant, page 58 Longbow, two fingers: Illustration of longbowmen, crossbowmen and guns at a siege shown on page 90 of longbow, both right handed longbow men in the centre appear to be using two fingers: Illustration of English archers attacking a French Town, shown in the centre pages of Longbow, shows 4 archers shooting at least two of which can be clearly seen using 2 fingers:Illustration of English longbowmen against French crossbows; again from centre pages of longbow the only longbow archer who's draw hand can be seen in the process of drawing is using two fingers: on the following central pages of Longbow illustrations of longbow men at Potiiers are using 2 fingers as are the longbow men being besieged by Jeanne d'Arc are shown using 2 fingers.
Now all of those instances came from one book, I could go on and look at the other works and quote them but that would be boring.
As for Ascham. the author of Roi Modus, and the author of Lartdarcherie most are books written for the rich who probably did not exercise in the Bow to the same manner as the common Archer and were probably nowhere near as strong. However as I have said before and I believe you have agreed both two fingered and three fingered releases were used so the fact someone write about a certain way does not make it universal.
It is clear that the three finger draw was used and the two finger draw as well
Or are you changing your mind now?
Mediaeval writings ? I remind people who consider written material useless, that we wouldn’t even know about the battle if Agincourt wlthout the accounts of English, Burgundian and Belgian wrters of the period, none of which mention a two fingered salute. Everything we know about the Middle Ages, apart from remains, is from eye witnesses and other writers of the period.
Not sure what you are trying to say here, none of these writings talk of any taunts given by the victors to the vanquished, do you seriously believe that having slaughtered the pride of France, the people who prior to the battle flew the Oriflame, which was a declaration of no quarter, a direction from the King of France to his Hoard to kill all enemies of France, that these men who had heard the French masses jeering at them would not return the favour? Why would it have been reported by those who wrote of the victory, if it happened it would have been one thing amongst many and a thing done by the common soldier not something done by one of the Lords who's exploits were regarded as being worthy of mention.
Erick I do not say it definitely happened but that I see no reason why it didn't, it certainly fits with what one would expect from such people.
Craig.
A good response. Some manuscript illustrations, not all, can be valid evidence. I disagree with your premises but at least you find evidence. I am at a disadvantage here because it is impossible to prove a negative. I don’t have your books in front of me, so a few questions. Is the John Gower picture the one with a bow of yew with green painted back? If so, that is not a longbow, but a hunting smallbow with two finger draw as I previously mentioned. If the books I mentioned were written for the rich, then the book illustrations you listed must have been painted for the rich who hadn’t learned to read, and are worthless. BTW the rich lordswere required to practice archery like everyone else and were the core of the fighting armies.
What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority. If you can show NO evidence of Agincourt archers using a “two finger salute” I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.
Erik
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What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority.
Erik, Neither of us will agree with the other, you believe it never happened, I would like to think it did, as there is no evidence we will never know. As such I think I will leave this discussion on the salute now.
However.....
I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.
Now I think you have overstepped the mark here, you cannot show it is not reality and what I do with my time is mine to decide, please do not attempt to tell me what to do, I have refrained from doing so to you.
Craig.
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What I seriously believe is that if there were any basis to this silly story, it would have been in the writings of the eyewitness de Wavrin, who describes the threat [told by the English king and unknown to the French] or in the writings of English chroniclers who were glad to show English superiority.
Erik, Neither of us will agree with the other, you believe it never happened, I would like to think it did, as there is no evidence we will never know. As such I think I will leave this discussion on the salute now.
However.....
I really think you would best spend your time and attention on something related to reality.
Now I think you have overstepped the mark here, you cannot show it is not reality and what I do with my time is mine to decide, please do not attempt to tell me what to do, I have refrained from doing so to you.
Craig.
Craig, you rightly say that how you spend your time is your decision. I carefully chose my words to say what I would prefer to see, given your interest and your ability. If you saw that as telling you what you should do, I apologise.
Erik
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Erik,
Thank you.
Craig.