Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Yeomanbowman on May 02, 2007, 01:06:26 pm
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I believe the fastest way to up your draw weight is through specific training. The idea of moving up bows in about ten pound increments is the traditional way and has a certain aesthetic appeal. However, it is expensive unless one makes ones own tackle. I've done it by both methods in conjunction. I should say that I have, in the past, done a lot of weight training for contact sports and could pull an 80 pound bow (albeit without much style) from the word go. l won't claim my method's necessarily safe, if you want that shoot a 45Lb'er!
Here goes..
First obtain some means of simulating a bow (I don't think pulleys really cut it as they do not facilitate a fluid draw). here's my bow exerciser and I know it looks like the unholy alliance between a hospital bed and a compound.
http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/?action=view¤t=Dscn7141.flv
Here are the images of the 'bow exerciser'. It's 6' long and 40mm wide. These are the springs from 'Morris Springs' http://www.morrissprings.co.uk/extension.html. Go for the ones with longest extension or use shock cord.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Dscn7118.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Dscn7117.jpg
Protocol
Basically warm up with a lightweight for 15 draws or reps. Over 3 sets increase this weight until it's around 80# (for example) and your nice and warm in the shoulders. Now the heavy stuff begins-put on 100# and rep this weight SMOOTHLY one after another and holding art full draw for as MANY times as possible in good form. In the next few weeks, when you can get 12 reps out add more resistance and try and build the reps back up to 12. Continue this process.
Points to remember
Only do this once a week tops, less if you have shot heavy recently
Small increments can be added with bungee cords
Pre-load the springs to get a more realistic F/D curve.
If you're still sore don't train
Place an arrow/dowel in the bow marked at 32 with a tape stop to ensure full draws.
The same sort of thing can be done holding looped shock-cord, so I'm told.
Hope this helps,
Jeremy
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Jeremy, might want to try drawing like the guys do on the Englishwarbow.com sight. Watch some of the videos there. I think it will be even easier for you to draw in the style they are doing it in. From what I'm seeing your doing all your drawing with your left arm. The other ways seem to even it out a lot more across the upper body.
I like the setup for training. Looks a lot more fun than just lifting weights.
David T
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I am not huge or small but I find it is not too difficult to draw a 100 bow. It helps if the bow is long and doesn't stack. You need a very different drawing style to that used on a lighter bow. The body and chest needs to be IN the bow. Using this whole body style I can draw a bow twice the draw weight on one I would use in the style I use for field archery that uses a more static arm/shoulder draw style. I have found that there is a very real difference between a long 100lb bow I can draw and a 120lb stacking bow that I can't.
Mark in England
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Jeremy,
Thanks for this contribution. I'm going to make up a machine like that ASAP. I thought it was interesting that you say to only do this once a week. In medieval England they were only required to shoot once a week and I've often thought this was ideal for building up to high weights. Giving your body lots of time to recover and build muscle.
LOL David,
Yeomanbowman can draw 155# with proper, fluid form. He's one of a few people in the world who can do that. Last I heard you were hoping to work your way up to half of that? ;D ;D ;D
J. D. Duff
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What a great contraption! I'd thought of something similar using weights, but as you say it wouldn't replicate a bow very well.
Have you been tempted to shoot an arrow out of it?
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LOL David,
Yeomanbowman can draw 155# with proper, fluid form. He's one of a few people in the world who can do that. Last I heard you were hoping to work your way up to half of that? ;D ;D ;D
J. D. Duff
Come on JD! He wont be happy if he pops a rivett here and there. I know how that feals!!! :o Pain is never fun. If I could find an easier way of drawing a bow of heavy weight I sure would go for it.
David T
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I'm just giving you a hard time DT. Look at Jeremy's post on his 155# bow. The video there shows his form and it's very similar to Glennan's. He also has a long history of weight lifting so he knows how to take care of his joints. I'm not sure he could even pull a 155# bow without proper form.
J. D. Duff
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Jeremy thats the same device that mark used to break the record 200#. What i used is pulling two bows and pulled them together also had a 290# made pull that with all my strength it does work. and alot of weight training going real heavy bent over rows,one hand rows, heavy shoulders front press, behind the neck press, heavy triceps excercise so your holding arm does not calaspe.alot of heavy curls so develop more pulling power. the device that you made is very well you can adapt any poundage with the spings pulling it for reps thats the way to do it. Well done marlon ;D
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Marlon,
Thanks for the exercises. Have you maxed out with a bow lately? You were up to 180# weren't you?
J. D. Duff
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Hello Josh yes I would shoot 12 arrows its a fiberglass bow 180# @27" Not a warbow marlon
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Hi Guys,
I am yet another cast adrift since the demise of EWB. So it's good that I found somewhere else to hang out (Thanks Marlon for getting in touch).
Just thought you lot might want to know that Yeomanbowman and I have trained together (gym etc) over a number of years and we have taken the same analytical and sustained approach to improving our draw weights. As you can see with the 'Bowerciser' it allows improvement in manageable increments, to the extent that I have put over 50lbs on my draw weight and with a strong coffee and a few words of encouragement from my 'buddy' I can draw up this fine bow. Back in Blighty there seems to be some resistance to mechanical forms of training, maybe they see it as not sportsmanlike?
Cheers, Outcaste
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Welcome Outcast--we're still missing a lot of people. If someone could get ahold of Nick, perhaps he would be willing to let people know we're here?
If my memory serves correctly, Steve Stratton didn't like the mechanical bow?
J. D. Duff
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I sont like a special conditioning for heavy bow shooting, because the moment you cease training and diet your ability to shoot goes to hell.
But any hard work which actually strenghtens tendons is advisable.
Most of men who weight around 80 kilos is quite capable of shooting 100# on spot, but they wont shoot any well.
Good technique is more important than brute strenght.
I m in crappiest physical shape I was in last 10 years and I still do well with that new bow of mine which is like 92# and I only use 2 fingers for draw (flemish).
This is because my form is relaxed and gives equal share of strain to lots of big muscles.
People with massive joints have advantage in terms of less body compression and also the sinew joints are more massive.
I made a 65# yew bow for my shooting buddy here, hes got it since autumn, didnt even pulled it yet. I even gave him an ash strenght bow for training.
But I asked him "You do 50 pul ups every evening as I told you?" "You eat raw cereals to build up the mass?"
Answer was "No" in both cases - he knows better, he will train with bows to get there. He does not realise that hard physical work is original conditioning he needs.
Raw cereals are also good for strenght and mass. Most people things its meat, but its quatch. Mind you, you wont get nice body eating this like "fitnes style" (well unles your genetics works in you favor", but as a diet it builds up the strenght as tuna and other things.
Again its not much of worth if you need to keep lift the weights to be able to shoot your bow.
Jaro
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Jaro diet is important and rest. Outcast get the others here marlon ;D
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Marlon, the archers at campaigns eat what they could and they were often forced to shoot afte rmany days of long march, or after a period of very poor nutrition, hard physical labour, with disenteria, without sleep etc.....
Off course they fought literary for lives, but as I said if you cannot do it without special training, which you have to sustain, its not worth it.
Jaro
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Jaro we are talking about now not 500 years ago. ;D
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I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU Jaro!!!.... ;)...
Asier.
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Hey My asier you are here good.marlon
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Off course they fought literary for lives, but as I said if you cannot do it without special training, which you have to sustain, its not worth it.
Jaro
Hello Jaro,
Does this sound like 'special' training to you?
1. Start shooting at the age of 7 under the tutorage of an experienced personal trainer
2. Shoot every week on Sunday, this is compulsory.
3. As soon as you are master of a bow, you will be given a stronger bow. Oh don't worry if it will have a negative effect on tender young joints/bone etc. That's not the primary concern.
4. All other leisure activities will be discouraged or banned as they will dilute your primary activity.
5. You will get good nutrition and be about the average height of an Englishman in the 1940's.
6. You will be provided with equipment, the quality of which, cannot be matched at any other time in history.
7. Continue this procedure (by law) and there will be excellent financial and prestige incentives.
Sounds familiar? I don't think there is any evidence that our ancestors would have shot as well if they hadn't done the above and then continued until they were too crocked to carry on or rich enough to stop. I suppose it boils down to what your definition of sustainability is in this instance. I would not as presumptuous as to assume that we are capable of replicating the loft achievements our ancestors, even with 'special training'. I couldn't get anywhere close without.
Glad you are here on this site.
Cheers,
Jeremy
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I agree! No way we will be as good as our ancestors unless we have encentive to be. I certainly dont have the time practice that much.
David T
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Hey My asier you are here good.marlon
Thank you so much...nice to hear that from you Marlon... ;) :)...
Cheers mate!!..
Asier.
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Welcome Outcast--we're still missing a lot of people. If someone could get ahold of Nick, perhaps he would be willing to let people know we're here?
If my memory serves correctly, Steve Stratton didn't like the mechanical bow?
J. D. Duff
Hi JD
it wasn't a case of not liking it, i couldn't bloody lift it let alone draw it, it was just to physically heavy :o
Steve
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Hey Steve,
I remember that. You were saying that it lacked similarity to drawing a bow in that it was so heavy. I'm going to try to make one--I'll try for 'liftable.'
J. D. Duff
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Mark Stretton came up with the design that this bow trainer was based on. I saw an image of his one in 'The Glade' and he said he found it very helpful in regards to upping ones draw weight, as I have done too.
If you don't get on with it I understand bungees can do a good job, or just raise your bow weight in increments (old school). I believe the ancient Chinese had strength bows that were made for the purpose of developing strength rather than to be shot. The idea of a specific non-bow trainer dates back to Victorian times at least, as far as I am aware. However, the Victorian design I saw involved a sprung telescopic tube design. Mark's type of trainer seems vaguely reminiscent of Howard Hill's pull/push bow to me but I wouldn't care to put an arrow through mine, however. Not very primitive and at zero bracing height it may smart a bit!
Jeremy
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Jeremy, you seem to forget all that hard labour these people were to do BESIDES the shooting. Oh yes, bischop Latimere writes about his bow growing with him etc. etc....
What I m telling is that they were conditioned enviromentaly to draw heavy bows, we are (mostly) not.
If you do excersise and drop it for 3 months, will you be still able to shoot your bow as of today?
Marlon - thats funny :)))
Jaro
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Have any of you seen 'Alone in the Wilderness?' It's a documentary about a man who moves to a remote area of Alaska, builds a cabin with hand tools and lives there for 35 years by himself. The amazing thing was that this guy could work an ax and misery whip all day long. I have no doubt that he would get into a 120# war bow very quickly.
I sometimes make the mistake of thinking that anybody could get into a 100#+ bow as fast as I did but I have a little history of manual labor that helps. It also helps that I hike into canyons and cut down Yew trees, split them and carry them out. I'm not an uber-bow puller like some of you guys but I would say that my degree of fitness that results from cutting wood and adventuring out-of-doors maintains my ability to draw a 100# bow.
I can only imagine what a plow-pulling, rock carrying, wood chopping peasant would be able to do with training in archery.
J. D. Duff
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Jeremy, you seem to forget all that hard labour these people were to do BESIDES the shooting. Oh yes, bischop Latimere writes about his bow growing with him etc. etc....
What I m telling is that they were conditioned enviromentaly to draw heavy bows, we are (mostly) not.
If you do excersise and drop it for 3 months, will you be still able to shoot your bow as of today?
Jaro
Hello Jaro,
Yes I quite agree, but that only confirms my first point. Due to our sedentary lifestyle we in the west generally lack the underpinning physical potency of our ancestors. OK, so far we are of the same opinion. Where it seems we disagree is what we do about it, I advocate some form of training to simulate the effect of a lifetime of being laid in the bow and with hard physical labour on top. What are we supposed to do? Submit to the limits of our cosy life style and say 'If I can't live a medieval life style I won't bother at all'. Physiologically we are the same as our ancestors, bar a less robust digestive system, so how we get to be able to shoot in the warbow is irrelevant. Tendon strength tends to remain if acquired slowly but ask yourself 'If a medieval archer suddenly did a 21st C 9 'til 5 office job for 3 months how would they fare?' Who knows?
I have done weight training and martial arts/contact sports for years so I think I could shoot quite a heavy bow after a 3 month lay off, J.D. has an outdoorsy life style that gives him a base-line but really Jaro, every little helps.
Cheers,
Jeremy
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If a medieval archer suddenly did a 21st C 9 'til 5 office job for 3 months how would they fare?' Who knows?
I bet he would be pissed off beyond all means. ;D
Anyway - such short time wont ruin his fitness certainly. It does not work that way.
Jaro
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I seems that we all agree that a physically active life style is, in some part, conducive to shooting in the warbow. But where we seem to differ is to the degreeof this and whether additional training is required in lieu of specialised training from early boyhood, as in medieval times. If I may paraphrase Jaro’s and some others sentiments, they seemed to feel that activities such as my bow exerciser were ‘artificial’ in some way and unnecessary. What was important was a rugged life style in order to draw and shoot realistic medieval draw weights.
In 1590, Sir Roger Williams wrote his military treatise, ‘Briefe Discourse of Warre’. This was at a time when agriculture was still the most significant industry in Britain and manual labour, largely, as arduous as 200 years before. However, even though the British still lived a very vigorous and physically demanding life this he writes… “Out of 5000 archers not 500 will make any strong shootes”. Only 1 in 10 can shoot well with a warbow. He bemoans, “…few or none do anie great hurt 12 or 14 score off.' Clearly this is not the strong shooting the Anglo-Welsh was once famous for. Equally clearly is the fact this is down to lack of specialised training and not a sedentary lifestyle.
Jeremy
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Is that availible to read? Very interesting.
I hope my last comment wasn't confusing. I was just saying that I thought certain activities like chopping wood worked out the necessary muscles for pulling a bow. I did not mean that special training wasn't necessary for getting into very heavy bows these days. I suppose the best way to get into a very heavy bow would be to start young and work your way up. But, I have no problem hitting the weights to get there in 1/1,000th of the time. ;D
J. D. Duff
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It does make me chuckle, this fetish for drawing the heaviest bow.
:D (This is me, chuckling)
Learn to shoot properly first, then the draw weight will come quite naturally. Power and strength come from good technique, never the other way round.
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I seems that we all agree that a physically active life style is, in some part, conducive to shooting in the warbow. But where we seem to differ is to the degreeof this and whether additional training is required in lieu of specialised training from early boyhood, as in medieval times. If I may paraphrase Jaro’s and some others sentiments, they seemed to feel that activities such as my bow exerciser were ‘artificial’ in some way and unnecessary. What was important was a rugged life style in order to draw and shoot realistic medieval draw weights.
In 1509, Sir Roger Williams wrote his military treatise, ‘Briefe Discourse of Warre’. This was at a time when agriculture was still the most significant industry in Britain and manual labour, largely, as arduous as 200 years before. However, even though the British still lived a very vigorous and physically demanding life this he writes… “Out of 5000 archers not 500 will make any strong shootes”. Only 1 in 10 can shoot well with a warbow. He bemoans, “…few or none do anie great hurt 12 or 14 score off.' Clearly this is not the strong shooting the Anglo-Welsh was once famous for. Equally clearly is the fact this is down to lack of specialised training and not a sedentary lifestyle.
Jeremy
I think you are have a typo there. Roger Williams was a contemporary of Phillip Sidney so that would put him in the late 16th century, not the early 16th.
I just checked
Sir Roger Williams, A Briefe Discourse of Warre (London, 1590)
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Yep! Typo corrected :).
Josh, the book is on Amazon.
Cheers,
Jeremy
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That is well past decline of military archery. Consider Flodden last major longbow engagement. There is continental campaign of Henry VIII. which sure included archery contingent, but its more like he liked the idea of indomitable english longbow than anything else (and attempted to hold the tradition alive). Continental battles by 1550 were routinely won with superiority in firearms as (one of) decisive factors.
J.
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It does make me chuckle, this fetish for drawing the heaviest bow.
:D (This is me, chuckling)
Learn to shoot properly first, then the draw weight will come quite naturally. Power and strength come from good technique, never the other way round.
Glennan,
This is me perplexed at your attitude :-\,
Don’t be so dismissive, how do you know how we shoot? If you don’t agree with anything I say that’s fine and you can choose to say so. But when you use derogatory language like ‘fetish’ it's too much. We both know what a realistic medieval draw weight is and what it takes to shift a heavy arrow. I shot a 65 gram war arrow 273 at Margam the other day and I defy you to do it with any thing under 120Lb, even with a laminate bow. War arrows are ineffective with sub 100Lb bows; it’s as simple as that. It’s a case of fitness for purpose not wearing fetish rubber bondage gear ;). Power is generated by the application of strength, via technique. Who’s saying technique is not important, certainly not me. You’re not a small chap and have a natural advantage so be more flexible.
Jeremy
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Fetish, noun: An object, principle, activity or similar that receives unreasonably excessive attention or reverence
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Come on Glennan ::)
See also...
Fetish, noun:Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. :o
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Come on lads, this is getting ridiculous. Everyone knows it's an impersonal pronoun.
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Yep, another good definition.
There are some out there whose purpose is purely to draw the heaviest bow they can. It's not about the archery to them, it's about the machismo (or something)
I don't think that applies to you. Never did. Sorry if you misunderstood me, or you find my colourful (though quite correct) use of English offensive.
Not sure that gives you the right to patronise me, though.
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I'm reminded of the story about a target archery coach who took it upon himself to show Dick Galloway how to draw up a bow. The man was handed a strong bow and all he could do was strain, grunt and pass it back.
Technique alone will not do it, nor will strength alone, at least not efficiently.
It's commonplace for me doing public access archery to see a big guy struggling with a weight that a slight woman will shoot comfortably, and the difference is in ego and technique.
The big guy will pick it up and try to draw with his hands, the woman will have listened to instruction and draw with comfort, using her back.
I was just looking at Thimosaby's picture over on PA and he has his wrist cocked and his elbow way high, a sure indicator that he has placed too much emphasis on drawing with the hands.
Rod.
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Alan
I have to say I agree with you that using a heavier bow forces you to do it a different way and thats certainly been my experience.
I think that being built big, you probably do have some innate advantages - bigger joints to spread the load better and big people have more basic leg and lower back strength. Having said that, I suspect that any healthy male can get up to 100lb at 30ins with training these days.
My own experience was based on an old 60lb victorian bow, an ash bow I made and an italian yew bow which was originally 90lb at 30 ins - but is a little less now. I started off with constant discomfort - nothing bad, just a niggle really - in the mobile wad of my right forearm (thats barchioradialis, and extensor carpi radialis longus and brevis). When that settled - which it did in spite of continuing to train - I then got about 6 months worth of discomfort higher up the line in the Acromio-clavicular joint. Again, in spite of continuing to train, its now settling and I'm assuming its due to the soft parts of the joint moulding to accomodate a specific type of new activity. I'm 6ft tall in my socks and 167lb with a long reach and small joints - so I guess my destiny is not to use a 130lb bow - or at least not without considerably more effort than you discuss.
Have you had any similar experiences at all - or has anybody else? At the moment, things are moving slowly and steadily forward and I'm getting to grips with a big swiss yew bow of 100lb at 30 ins and making progress.
I'm pretty sure you'd have trouble using that bow of yours in the situation I'm suggesting. What I mean is marching 270 miles in 17 days with only one days rest. No shelter to speak of and rations consisting of a few nuts a day and some mouldy meat which makes you sick(or vegan equivalent - but it has to be poisonous yeah?) . On one day, you get a bellyful of half fermented wine and some bread which does more harm than good. It rains the whole time so you're always wet and you don't get much sleep. By the last few days, you have diarrhoea and/or bronchitis and are forced to fight bare arsed in order to have hope of a clean pair of trousers to go home in, if you survive. In fact, anybody trying that would have a fair chance of dying and would be doing well to stand unaided by the end of it, let alone use a 130lb bow.
There is another big problem with trying to extrapolate that abilities of one or a few people to those of thousands. When dealing with large numbers of people, you get ranges of abilities. The bigger the numbers, the bigger the range. Now, if you calculated the average strength of men in an army and made a bow based on that, then half the army would be unable to use the bow. What you need to do is calculate the percentage of people you want to be able to use the bow (I'd say 95% or roughly 2 standard deviations either side of the mean) and set the bow weight at the lowest end ie average strength minus the two standard deviations. As somebody said in a previous post - its about minimums. That way, you can engineer a situation where everybody can use the bow - and you'd need to take into account the effects of privation on campaign by the way.
C
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Hello again ChrisD :-)
I have not suffered any pain myself (well apart from slight ache from over used muscles) but I am VERY careful not to over do it and as soon as I feel I might be I go back to my 100lb bow or stop.
I am determined to string the bow without a stringer as I can't imagine big butch medieval archers getting their stringer out (it would be a matcho thing) - I think I have hurt myself more doing this than shooting the bow
I suspect I will eventually admit defeat on this one but I have to give it a try ;-)
I could be wrong, but I imagined that the archers going to war would be specially selected for their archery skills/prowess and so the bows wouldn't need to be usable by any solder, just the cream of British archers ?
There are people around these days who can pull 180lbs and I am sure they would consider a 130lb bow a light bow
Imagine giving someone like Simon Stanley a 90lb bow to take into battle, I don't think he would be impressed ;-)
I am pretty new to warbows and now going from my 100lb bow to the new 130lb bow I think I have developed a good technique for pulling heavy bows and this one is as heavy as I can manage at the moment - it will be interesting now to see if this is my natural ability or if in a few months I am considering this a light bow ?
If I do carry on up the weights without much effort then this would to me imply that medieval archers who were shooting bows from a young age would be well in advance of myself (I started aged 40!)
If I am still finding this a very heavy bow in 6 months time then maybe each person has a natural draw weight they can pull once the technique is learned and they can't easily pass this point?
BTW - Whilst I say I don't do a lot of training it is not uncommon for me to shoot for 4 or 5 hours solid at my target club on a Sunday and this would be something like 250 arrows so maybe I have built my muscles up on lighter bows over the last year more than I realised ?
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Alan
well, good luck to you in your ventures. I'm sure we'll meet at some stage on the circuit. I really think its a pity the BLBS hasn't been abit more long sighted and encouraged heavy bow use.
What you say about muscle ache gives me an idea. Infra red cameras detect heat and therefore can by inference be used to identify where blood flow occurs in muscles. I reckon that heavy bow use is much more of a whole body exercise than traditional - IR cameras would be a good way to compare. I find the muscle ache is in the lower back - right side mostly, buttock, again right side mostly and right lateral thigh.
I do in fact think that there were many bowmen of old who could have used heavier bows than what I believe the MR bows were. I just also happen to think that numbers of bows in action was more important than higher weights for the reasons I've outlined. You know this debate will go on an on. In the end of the day, JB is right - it is about enjoying oneself. Lets face it, we're grown ups who enjoy playing at bows and arrows - how seriously should we be taking it? (Ok Ok, I know some of us get really het up on the history - but so what - it should only be talked about with beer on hand really) :) :P
C
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I couldn't agree more - it's all just a bit of fun at the end of the day :-)
My interest in figuring out what the draw weight of the bows would have been is simply because my ultimate goal has always been to learn to shoot a longbow like would have been used at Agincourt etc. etc.
Problem with this is I had not realised how little is know about such things and so no one really knows what this bow is !
At the moment I am working on the theory that the Mary Rose bows were around 140lb, but when I finally get to 140lb I bet someone convinces me they were 150 ;-)
Cheers
Alan