Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: D. Tiller on May 06, 2007, 08:07:35 pm

Title: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 06, 2007, 08:07:35 pm
I was wondering why all the differences in Bodkin points. Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? Seems like early ones were very long then got shorter and tudars look like dart points and then there is one called a heavy war bodkin with a lozeng cross section. What gives?

David T
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 06, 2007, 08:40:09 pm
Sounds like someone has been looking at Hector Cole's site ;)
The longer more needle shaped points are better for maile. The shorter ones and the lozenge shaped ones are for plate.

For maile since all you are doing is spreading the links out the needle shaped point is more effective. Get the sharp point in the link and the shape of the bodkin will do the rest.
With plate you actually have to break through the armor so the shorter heavier points come into being. The lozenge shape is, I think, one of the later developments in this progression since it concentrates more weight at the very tip of the bodkin. The Tudor point I've never really understood myself. I suspect it's more of a galling point than an armor piercer but I'm not sure.
I always thought that the best maile piercers are the types 7 and 8b. The best for plate are probably the type 8,9 and 10 with the absolute best for plate being the type 9a. Types 10-12 I'm not sure about. I think, like the Tudor head, they are more harassing fire and not serious armor breakers. Maybe Jaro will weigh in since I think he knows this stuff better than I do.

The top point in the 1st pic is a 1/2" hand forged type 9a. The bottom 2 are commercial points that are kind of 9As and are available commercially in the States as crossbow quarrels.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/wararrows_heads.jpg)

(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/heads1sfw.jpg)

(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/heads3sfw.jpg)

(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/heads2sfw.jpg)
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: heavybow on May 06, 2007, 09:03:17 pm
Lloyd nice arrows marlon
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Loki on May 07, 2007, 12:45:34 pm
Hey Lloyd is the 9a the one John forged for you?
The swallowtail's just nasty,poor nags!
Nice arra's mate,are you still using peackock for fletchings?
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 07, 2007, 03:45:23 pm
Thanks Lloyd! That helps out a lot. I kind of like those Tudor points. Is anyone making those? If not how do you make them.  I think I saw something on Steve Stratton using those style of points to shoot through plate armor.

David T
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: outcaste on May 07, 2007, 05:52:43 pm
Hi,

Have you seen Simon Stanley on the Discovery Channel? He seems to make a Tudor style bodkin by hammering it into a mould and grinds off the flash lines. I have a Hector Cole example but haven't tested it against a target (apart from grass!) They are very light though and I do have my doubts over the armour piercing qualities.

Cheers, Outcaste


Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Yeomanbowman on May 07, 2007, 06:18:43 pm
Hello All,
These stone representations are carved on Prince Arthur's Cantry Chapel in Worcester Cathedral.  They show livery arrows armed with Tudor bods and, as interestingly radiused fletches.  Head similar to these were recovered from the Towton battle field.  Prince Arthur was Henry VIII's older brother.  Here he is...
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/ArthurTudor1501.jpg
These are the carvings...
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/feathers.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/shafts.jpg
This is the reconstruction I got Hector Cole to make for me...
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Dscn6987.jpg
Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 07, 2007, 06:22:40 pm
Yep! Saw that one.  It was interresting to see this type penitrate that plate. Maybe its the cross section of the point that allows it to push through? Looks like its stronger in the center and then flares into a cutting edge. Maybe its multipurpose type of point?
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 07, 2007, 10:30:42 pm
Yes, the hand forged bodkin in my pic is from John Marshall. I know that Hector Cole is selling the Tudor bodkin and so is Steve Stratton at http://www.diyarchery.co.uk/arrowheads.htm. The one's Steve is selling are made by Mark Stretton.
Yes, I'm still suing peacock for my war arrows and will probably continue till I run out.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 07, 2007, 10:33:57 pm
One of these days I have got to build me a forge and try and make these points. Wish there was someone arround who could teach us how to do it here in WA in the USA. I would definatly be pounding on there door.

David T
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 07, 2007, 10:42:32 pm
Check the English Warbow main site. There is a video from John Marshall on forging bodkins.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 07, 2007, 10:43:52 pm
I watched that one and learned a lot from it. But I think there must be more to the Tudor one.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 07, 2007, 10:46:00 pm
I watched that one and learned a lot from it. But I think there must be more to the Tudor one.

I think you are right because they are expensive little buggers! 15 pounds is $30.00 for a single point! + shipping from England!
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 07, 2007, 10:52:06 pm
Yep!  ;D
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: sagitarius boemoru on May 09, 2007, 07:17:48 pm
One of domestic production. Made after a prototype, made by me, made after one I saw on Markīs arrow...oh huh head hurts....

(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/warbodkin.jpg)


I have couple of monster ones now, but they wait for being ground.

J.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 09, 2007, 07:32:12 pm
Nice! How long does a point like that take to make? I may have access to a forge this summer any type of iron or steal thats best for making these out of? I was thinking of trying some rebar.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: sagitarius boemoru on May 09, 2007, 07:35:32 pm
3/4 of hour plus some grinding. But what you need to learn is to make good sockets. If you make good socket, you can make any type of arrowhead. I suck at forging and it does not well to my ellbows.


Jaro
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 09, 2007, 07:47:10 pm
Hmm! Maybe I should invest in a trip hammer too.  I wonder if the blacksmiths back then actually spent time on grinding the heads down? Looks nice though!  Did you use charcoal to harden the head.  I have heard mention that they may have pounde the head against charcoal laid on the anvil at temp. to harden the point like case hardenning does.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: sagitarius boemoru on May 09, 2007, 07:51:42 pm
They did cemented (carbonised) iron arrowheads in bone mill. A kitchin fire is sufficient to do that.
Since this is steel it does not need anything.

Jaro
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 09, 2007, 07:54:48 pm
Cool! I wonder if I used rebar if I would need to harden the points in this manor or if it is a hard enough steal to not nead it.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Uncouth on May 09, 2007, 08:13:57 pm
Wayne Goddard has a book called the $50 Knife Shop that talks about how to set up an inexpensive home forge, and talks about different types of steel, hardening and tempering, of course it is geared toward making knives, but I don't know why the forge and the principles couldn't be used for making arrowheads.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Loki on May 09, 2007, 08:32:02 pm
Didnt Bruce use old Anchors for his points?
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Miles on May 09, 2007, 08:42:34 pm
Here's a test that I did with my old 16 gauge heat-treated breastplate and some Botkin tipped arrows if you look at the types 7 needlepoint bodkins did not fare well.

 Normally this type of head gets the best penetration in my target out of my bodkins tips and the type 7 needlepoint bodkins eats chain mail for breakfast I have some very nice riveted chain mail that a needlepoint bodkins penetrate an 1 1/2 inches without breaking the rivets pushed in with my pinky finger.(Iíll work on taking photo show why it's so good versus chain mail)

The next one is a type 8 bodkin in if you look at the tip you'll see is flattened a little bit when it hit the target deflected sharply to left at an odd angle it was very cool looking to.

You can see some small dense on the breastplate in this particular piece of armor is not a good example of the later 15th-century type of armor that was heat-treated spring steel in made to optimize deflected sloping for protection versus arrows.

Cheers Miles

I like Shooting stuff

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Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: D. Tiller on May 09, 2007, 10:26:26 pm
Neat! You going to try some Tudor and Heavy Bodking points next?
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Miles on May 10, 2007, 01:08:51 am
Hi D. Tiller
Neat! You going to try some Tudor and Heavy Bodking points next?
May be some time down the road I can make up the Tudor style heavy bodkin heads arrows.

Iím looking to demonstrate the effectiveness of three basic missile weapons, war bow(my favorite), crossbow(powerful but slowwww) and handgun (to loud) of the later half 15th-century period to demonstrate the effectiveness and show the pros and cons of each of the weapons.

Cheers Miles
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Miles on May 10, 2007, 04:31:02 am
This is a follow-up on my first posting and I was mistaken about needlepoint bodkins type 7 the ease of penetration it's not 1 1/2 inches it's over 2 1/2 inches, the chain mail I am using is flat riveted links it's very high-quality reproduction armor, what I'm doing is putting the point through without damaging the armor to show you the ineffectiveness of this type of armor against this type of bodkins head.

This is the same test using the type 8 bodkins arrowhead it shows a very weak defense.

Chain mail in the 15th century was used in conjunction with other armors to provide limited protection.
Miles

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Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Far East Archer on May 11, 2007, 07:22:21 am
Interesting stuff! Well I dont have a forge.....YET! but I will someday. Untill then can you tell me if this is any good?http://www.bowstick.com/storefront/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=652
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: SimonUK on May 11, 2007, 07:43:21 am
It looks good to me ....but I laugh when they say it is similar to the arrow heads of 'thousands of years ago'  :D
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: sagitarius boemoru on May 11, 2007, 08:03:37 am
The socket on that one is somehow bulbous. While I like shape of head, which might be even of some use against plate, the socket should go somehow straight to form cone. I wonder if the socket is really forged, because its hard to imagine how to arrive to this shape if you use madrell for forging.

Got better picture?

Jaro
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Far East Archer on May 11, 2007, 08:52:41 am
SimonUK
 I laugh at most of the stuff on that site, they have a bow on there thats called a warbow that doesnt even pull 80# :o

Jaro
Yes I like the shape also thats why I thought it would be a good head but I highly doubt it was hand forged. Hmm it also said fits 11/32..... gonna need to buy some ash shaft because my spruce shafts stand no chance when shot from a heavy bow that skinny. Dont have better pic as this is the only one on the site.

So is this worth getting???? About $39 for 12

-Alex

P.S. This is bowman from PP by the way.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 11, 2007, 11:24:14 am
I've seen some of these points in person. They look OK but they weigh less than 200 grains. Definitely not a real bodkin. More like a field point disguising itself as a bodkin. They are OK if you want to dress up your regular target arrows as make believe war arrows.
These http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=345&c=22 are much better but they are still pretty light for a real war head.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Loki on May 11, 2007, 01:01:22 pm
Thats a lot better than the one east archer is interseted in,pricey,but nice  :D.A hand forged point like that one Lloyd would cost around £20 in England!
You can get drop forged Bodkins reletivaly cheap (£1.50-£2.50 each)and they look a lot better than the one on offer from the bowstick site.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Far East Archer on May 11, 2007, 01:17:28 pm
 200 grains? pffff thats weak....Didnt know the heads I was looking at were that light. The one you showed is nice, just kinda pricey for me. My next choice was the heads at DIY archery, either the hand forged or drop forged ones but I wonder if they ship to japan........

-Alex
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Miles on May 11, 2007, 04:40:43 pm
The one I was shooting the Armor with are from HE and 3/8"some smaller and are ligth most of the ones I maded are for 1/2" and all most too hvy.I'm not a back smith I needed to put on arrows for target testing  the HE heads are what I had at the time and I the shot all this back Apil for fun.
I 've had to make Big Chested arrows to make the HE heads useabul footing and still have a fat war arrow 1/2"+ size, hey I'm not all that happy them but I got them so I'm use them some how.

I've seen some of these points in person. They look OK but they weigh less than 200 grains. Definitely not a real bodkin. More like a field point disguising itself as a bodkin. They are OK if you want to dress up your regular target arrows as make believe war arrows.
These http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=345&c=22 are much better but they are still pretty light for a real war head.
Title: Re: Differences in Bodkin points?
Post by: Lloyd on May 12, 2007, 12:14:33 am
Thats a lot better than the one east archer is interseted in,pricey,but nice  :D.A hand forged point like that one Lloyd would cost around £20 in England!
You can get drop forged Bodkins reletivaly cheap (£1.50-£2.50 each)and they look a lot better than the one on offer from the bowstick site.


More like £11 from John Marshall. For £20 you are getting into broadheads from Mark Stretton or Hector Cole. with shipping those commercial heads cost about $9.00 each which is a lot better than $20 or so for good hand forged broadheads, although I prefer hand forged heads myself. Machined heads look so ...machined :D
I've also used the English commercial bodkins and they are not bad but they are still way too light. For livery arrows I like my heads to weigh at least 300 grains or so for type 7s and about 500 grains for a type 9a or a big swallow tail (14d or 14c are my favorites)