Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dane on January 09, 2011, 05:02:24 am
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First, moderators, feel free to move somewhere else if this is not the appropriate topic area.
Hi, everyone. Taking a break from the usual stuff, I decided to post some in-progess shots of a 14th/15th Century Germanic style light hunting crossbow. In honesty, it is not a precise medieval reconstruction, as I am using modern tools and some modern techniques, nor a proper comsposite prod (bows), but am keeping to the spirit of the project. The end result will be a little 175-190 lb. hunting crossbow, with a 30 inches long cherry tiller (the stock in crossbow parlance), a moose antler rollling nut, steel tickler (the trigger), and steel sturrup (the part you put your foot in to span (draw) the bow). Crossbows have their own special nomenclature.
If you get a chance, Google up Knight's Amoury. They have a build-along on building the same style crossbow as I am making, and the guy did a fanstastic job. I won't post the site link, as there are commerical links on it.
Last night, I got the rolling nut basicallly turned down, and now am facing the ends and then the other work to make the nut, and am using my little 7"x10" mini lathe for this part. The nut and the associated tickler is probably the most time consuming secton of the project, as I am going to have to drill and tap a threaded rod fashioned into a sear for the tickler, chisel out channels for the ticker, and so on. I am using a lot of modern tools, such as drill press and a small benchtop bandsaw for the bone work for facing the top of the table (the top surface of the tiller), Fostner bits, etc. But, for making the tiller, I did use traditional woodworking tools we all use for making bows. Carving the tiller has been a true pleasure, lots of fun, and mentally almost meditative, as most woodworking tends to be for me. There will be some inlay work in this part, so that will be posted in the future.
Later, I will post a more detailed description of the work, as well as shots and info of the bow in action later this winter or spring. Some areas need explination, such as the slope of the nose of the tiller in the last couple of shots.
This is not just something fun I wanted to do for a long time, but is really a springboard to understanding crossbow construction when I tackle a later Roman (3rd or 4th century) arcuballista, which is essentially, as far as we can tell, a very early crossbow. Another larger project is perhaps (maybe) going to be a huge seige crossbow. This will come in at 1500 to 2000 pounds of pull, and will have a tiller about 5 feet long. Clearly, not a beginners project, but one to work up to. One authority states that these huge siege bows can shoot a bolt / quarrel 450 meters, and that alone would make it worth the building :)
Costs have been surprisingly not bad for this. I found a 6' x 11" by 1.5" live edge cherry plank at a retail woodworking store for 21 bucks, and laminated the tiller, then used a thickness planer to get the basic block shape before carving the shape with drawknife, rasps, scrapers, and planes. The prod is running about 65 bucks, so not bad, and the second most expensive part was the piece of moose antler I acquired for the rolling nut. I could have gone with hardwood or even sytnetic material, but for 55 dollars, I expect to get 2 or even 3 nuts out of it, and moose is historically accurate. I have had to purchase a few new tools like a 3/8" tap and the little bandsaw, but they will be useful for future projects. The bone I got from a pet store, and that has run me about 25 dollars for the amount I need. A hardwood table facing would like nice, as well.
The photos should be self explanitory. Feel free to ask questions, of course. I will post one or two more for the number of photos I have.
Happy New Year, everyone.
Dane
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More photos.
Dane
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Last ones. The fur is a blacktail deer pelt, btw. Not killed by me, but acquried from the same source as the moose antler.
Dane
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Everyone, Del the Cat sent me an excellent message suggesting that I could have milled out the rolling nut hole before laminating the halves of the tiller, which would have avoided the use of side plates on the lock area. It would have been a great soluition, too, as I was laminating two planks of cherry together to get the 3" I needed for the tiller block. That is food for thought, and perhaps a method I will use for my next crossbow. Note that the glue line for the top table of the tiller is visible in the photos, but will be hidden when I glue on bone plates, which will also give a slick surface for the quarrels (bolts) as they leave the weapon. The glue line for the underside of the tiller, not visible in the photos I have posted, is really well done. The boards are not book matched, but an invisible glue line is always something I strive for.
Del has a great site, too, everyone should check it out. Click on the globe icon under his user name. The ash bow is beautiful, and his little Chinese repeating crossbow is highly cool.
Thanks again, Del. This place is as always a wealth of info from some very talented and generous people.
Dane
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keep it coming Dane. this is going to be good
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That already looks beautiful!
Looking forward to following this!
:)
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Seems like a fun project!
I also want to make a "siege engine", but mine will be rubber powered (so no medieval original). I want to do this with a few friends in the summer, still have to find the location. I want to fire shot put with it.
The model is already finished:
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3646/cannoncolor.jpg)
It's a 1:10 scale, the full size version will be 3,5 meters long, like a small car.
Here is a little video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ9keWOP2To
Maybe we should make a contest out of it... ;D
Jörg
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Thanks for the words, guys. I will post regularly, and this project is relatively short term, so it wont be that long before the bow is finished and tested.
JoergS, bravo. Post when you actually build the full sized one. I actually have two catapults in progress. I took a break, but am getting back to them. Both are Roman arrow shooters, called Scorpio or catapulta. Both of these are based upon archeological evidence and the somewhat corrupted translations of ancient Greek and Roman engineer's writings. The little one is called a scorpio-minor, and is a belly cocker, much like a Greek gastrophetes. It will have 1.25" springs, whereas the larger machine is going to be tripod mounted and has 2" springs. I will have to post once I get back to these in ernest this winter and spring. The red painted spring frames are for the 2" machine. It is already sheathed in steel, with hand made copper rivets. The little one is shown with fake plastic washers, but those will be bronze or brass when completed.
Dane
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thats awesome!! will trade archery equipment for that! lol
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Looks very cool Dane. You gotta make a video of it in action when its done.
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Can do on the video.
What do you have to trade, Aero? :)
Dane
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Very cool project.
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Thanks, Cracker.
Well, the nut is now turned and ready for the next few steps.
This was my first experienced with a lathe, so it was a lot to learn quickly, and probably not well advised to learn using such an expensive workpiece. The photos show the drilling process for the center hole in the nut that will be used to bind the rolling nut into the socket. Most reproduction / inspired crossobows use artificial sinew to keep the nut in the socket. I have some nice roll of gut I may use instead.
Now I can square up each end of the nut, which will be about 1" in depth, and finish drilling the socket. After that, I can begin rough cutting the bone plates for facing the table of the bow (which is the top surface). That will happen this week.
Dane
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The rollling nut is coming along nicely. I cut it to a depth of slightly over 1", and it is 1 1/4" in diameter. After squaring each end, I used the little 9" bandsaw (ideal for these kinds of light jobs), and then a round file to make the notch, and begin the fingers with the band saw, then careful chiseling and file work.
Next steps are to finish milling the nut socket, make a plug for the left side of the socket out of cherry, and continue to refine the finger slot, which is not quite deep enough or at the correct angle. The fingers will go on each side of the quarrel when the crossbow is loaded. I am taking my time, as so much effort has been put into this nut. It has been a lot of fun to see it coming into being, and moose antler is a pleasure to work with, very dense and with a lovely color.
Dane
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Great work on that roller nut. But I am kinda confused how this is going to work. I thought you put the roller nut between the pieces in the middle? I am sure you got a plan. Just curious.
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Thanks, bigcountry. If this makes sense, I will drill the socket hole deeper with a 1.25" Fostner bit, so the nut is centered on the tiller. I'll be doing that later today.
Then, I will cut out a plug out of cherry, the same wood as the rest of the tiller, and glue it in, then sand the plug down flush with the outside of the tiller. Later, I'll cover the plug with a lock plate made of wood or rawhide. Finally, I will drill a hole through both sides of the tiller and bind the rolling nut in with sinew or gut, wrapped around the tiller from the bottom. That acts to keep the nut from flying out after you shoot the bow.
Dane
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can't wait to see.
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Bigcountry, here are two shots of the completed socket. The opening in the right side will be plugged later with cherry, then covered with a lockplate. You can see I slghtly chipped the aft edge of the socket, but once I cover the table with the facing material, the little error will be invisible. The nut rotates smoothly, which is what I was aiming for. I wil additionally wax the socket to aid in a fast release.
After spending about two hours cutting and grinding bone plates, and gagging on the scent (and wearing a respirator, so the gagging happened after removing the respirator), I've decided to pick up some holly wood and face the bow tiller with that. Since this is not an exact medieval repro, I think it is fair to deviate in ways that still retains the spirit of the weapon, and also looks handsome.
Dane
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More More I can hardly wait.
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Thank you, Cracker. The last shot of the crossbow is the tiller resting on the piece of holly I picked up today. It was terribly dear, but I can resaw it for two planks, then plane one down to 1/8 inch for facing the table. This will be used instead of bone. I understand holly this white and flaw free is very rare, hence the costs. It may not show well in this photo, but is a very creamy white, and really pretty.
This will be it for a while. The steel prod (bow) is in production, so it will be a bit before I recieve that, as well as the tickler. Ill cut the facing pieces to shape, and do some other small tasks such as making a bone quarrel rest, but I am kind of in a holding pattern for now.
I have included two totally unrelated photos of a 4th century replica Roman scutum I am buidling. If you value your sanity, avoid sewing on a rawhide rim to a shield. This was almost 300 stitches I had to make. The shield still needs a lot of work, but is coming along well, and is for my late Roman group, Exculcatores Iuniores Britanniciani. It is a close replica to oval flat shields found at Dura Europa, which is in what is now Syria. The thing is made of poplar planks, butt jointed and then covered with linen on the face. I still have to make the iron boss, touch up the small gaps in the rawhide edging, and paint it with the Exculcatores' symbol of a yellow two-headed dragon on a white face with red border. A small rack for plumbatum will go on the back of the sheild, those being essentially lawn darts from hell, a kind of fletched throwing dart with a heavy lead weight and an iron broadhead-like point.
More violent fun. :). Actually, the late Roman stuff does relate to this crossbow, since this is primarily training to construct an arcuballista.
Well, more crossbow photos as I continue making it. Not sure when, but soon, hopefully.
Dane
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Wow do you ever sleep?
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This is a fascinating thread, thanks for taking the time to post it. I did google up the example and spent an enjoyable evening (when it was too cold to work in the shop) looking at the entire process. Are you going to go the artificial sinew route for your string or use something like B50? I'm especially anxious to see how it shoots because it is a tempting project. That holly looks wonderful, I think it'll look better than the bone on the example. Very nice job.
George
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Cracker, I get about 4 hours a night, sometimes 5 if I am lucky. My pug likes to wake me up hours before the alarm, then she does back to bed and I hear her upstairs snoring as I pace the floors. Since my next door neighbors died, I can work in my shop all night long if I want to.
Thank you, George. The entire process of building one of these is not really that difficult, depending on what you want. You can substitute a hardwood dowl like oak or walnut for the rolling nut and avoid having to use antler, or machine it out of aluminum or brass, as well. The tiller can be very simple such as military weapons, or ultra fancy for hunting bows used by, I presume, the upper classes. I am not much of a metal worker, and the metal components such as the tickler are really not hard to handle, too.
I may go with B50 for the string, as there is no stretch, and this is after all a medieval inspired bow. Once I do built an arcuballiista (Roman crossbow), linen thread is what I will probably make the string out of. And If I do build that gigantic 1,200 pound seige bow, I will definately use B50, plus an all metal nut.
Dane
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I gotta get my shop insulated and clymate controlled, luckily I have no neighbors close enough to grumble so I can also do as I please. Excelent work by the way. Keep it coming this is like waiting for Dallas to come on. Could you use that rig to shoot J.R.?
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I need to insulate the ceiling of my shop too. Shoot JR, that's funny cracker. I drive by South Fork ranch every day on the way to work, my house is about 3 miles from there. It used to be well in the country, but the city has almost reached it. People stop all the time along Murphy Rd there to take their pictures by the gate. One time a guy pulled over, had his wife cross the street with the camera, and he posed by his SUV holding his shotgun as I drove by. Only in Texas... Anyway, I'll be anxiously waiting for new posts Dane, very cool.
George
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Dane
very cool and interesting project! You have some talent. I'm learning alot. Can't wait to see more!
If you ever get tired of that nasty old equipment in your shop there....let me know ;D
ron
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Thanks Ron. And I will keep you in mind should I decide to get rid of all my shop stuff. :)
Here is a few shots of the holly planed down and rough cut and layed on the table. These will replace the bone I had planned on initially using. I will be gluing the holly pieced down, and then attaching them with very small brass nails in each corner.
Also, I have included a closeup photo of the bone quarrel rest. I will cut a dovetail slot into the nose of the tiller, and this little rest will have a v-shaped groove in the top. I can adjust it somewhat like you adjust the rear open sight of a blackpowder rifle as I shoot in the crossbow. One reason for this quarrel (aka bolt or arrow) rest is that it reduces friction on the entire bolt as it is shot from the weapon, so it should be a mite faster than a crossbow with a quarrel groove.
Dane
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Nice. ;D ;D
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Thank you. I'm a bit pleased with it. King's deer beware. Soon. I hope. :) Poaching is I am sure a nicer career path than gong farming.
Dane
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Ok, I see, so there will be metal pin for the roller to roll on?
Coming along nice. Think the holly will be slick as bone?
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I'd never heard the term "gong farming" before, had to look it up. :o Not my choice for a career path either...yikes.
The things I learn on this forum. ;D
George
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Thanks, Bigcountry.
No way the holly will be nearly as slick as bone. But Karate Kid taught me....wax on, wax off. That will help a bit in speeding the bolt downrange.
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It wasn’t the greatest job, but on the bright side, the gong farmer got to keep any treasures he found when, well, tilling his soil (night soil, I guess you’d call it). I can image the dinnertime conversations he had with his family, too, about how his day went. :)
They dont tell you this kind of stuff at those medieval themed dinner theater places, do they?
Dane
I'd never heard the term "gong farming" before, had to look it up. :o Not my choice for a career path either...yikes.
The things I learn on this forum. ;D
George
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No way the holly will be nearly as slick as bone.
Now maybe you want to avoid modern stuff, but I use polyurethane varnish originally for wooden boats. You can apply it in very thin layers, and you can polish it to a high sheen. It is very smooth, like glass. And totally watertight. Clear, too.
You use 400 grit sandpaper, then apply three layers of the varnish, sand in between. For the last layer, you use very fine grit sandpaper (1200 or so) and finally car chrome polish.
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Joerg,
Great tip! Thank you. I will follow your recommendations for the table part of the weapon. It is medieval-inspired, not a replica weapon, after all, so modern finishes are fair. The high sheen would look appropriate to simulate bone, as well. I was really pleased at how close in color the holly is to the bone quarrel rest as illustrated in the last posted photo. I am not worried that it won’t be an exact match., as well.
I do plan on using boiled linseed oil and tung oil for the rest of the finish for the tiller. That ought to look nice and period.
Tonight or tomorrow, since there is forecast for up to 10” of snow, I plan on drilling and tapping the rolling nut and fashioning a sear out of a 3/8” threaded rod. That should go smoothly, and then, after making the plug I’ve mentioned before, I am kind of stuck in limbo until I get the prod (bow) and tickler. The tickler is more important at this stage, as I have to have it to determine the channel I will chisel out for the tickler, locate and pin the tickler, and fit the tickler pressure spring.
When those steps are completed, essentially the tiller is then complete mechanically. Then it is a matter of gluing down the holly table facing, making the prod socket, drilling and chiseling the front binding hole, doing all the fine sanding and finishing, then binding on the prod and stirrup and creating the bow string and perhaps even a simple medieval-style peep sight than can fold down.
I’m not yet sure what kind of cosmetic additions I want to make, such as inlaying the tiller with wood or bone or metal, etc. I’d hate to do all this work and do a shoddy inlay or carving job on this little monster, so I may keep the tiller’s main attraction just the color and grain of the cherry wood. My personal deadline for this weapon is early June, but I should be done well before then.
I do also plan to make a belt claw, belt and leather quiver for the short quarrels, and a variety of quarrels with bodkin and target points, so I don’t have to remain totally dormant on this project.
Dane
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Missed this question. No pin is necessary. I'll bind the rolling nut into the socket with sinew, through the nut and then under the bottomside of the tiller. The only reason that is necessary is to keep the nut from popping out of the socket after you shoot it.
Dane
Ok, I see, so there will be metal pin for the roller to roll on?
Coming along nice. Think the holly will be slick as bone?
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I've never been to a medieval themed dinner place. :( It would seem I should visit one with this new found knowledge. Somehow I suspect they'll be confused when I ask who does their gong farming??
George
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You know, George, one of those indoor arena places with fake knights jousting, and buxom wenches serving you and calling you "me lord." Just google Medieval Times (registered) and behold a feast for all the senses. Guys and gals get complimentary paper crowns at these things. And turkey wings to do the Henry the 8th thing.
I just did some more work on the nut. My wordworking shop is a mini machine shop now. I decided to try drilling and tapping a piece of antler to make sure I didn't wreck my hard-won rolling nut. I clamped the antler in a drill press vice and drilled a hole all the way through with a 5/8" drill. Then, I clamped it in my machinist's vice which I can bolt to my bench through the dog holes, and using a 3/8" NC tap, I tapped the hole. A 3/8" bolt fit perfectly, and it felt really good tapping my first hole ever.
So, I measured exactly where I wanted to the hole to be in the nut for the threaded rod, drilled and then tapped the hole. The next step is to cut the threaded rod flush at both ends, file in the sear, and epoxy the rod permenantly into the nut. That will happend tomorrow during the snowstorm we are about to get whollped with.
Dane
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Looks really good, nice work. That next job of making and inletting the tickler looks like a real challenge to me. I would enjoy the welding and bending, though I'd be slow, but the inletting looks really tough.
I just love projects that result in new tools for the shop. Mine isn't a machine shop in any stretch yet. Keep the pictures coming.
George
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I recommend soaking the threaded hole in epoxy glue, then oil the screw, put it in and let the glue set.
Antler is very hard on the surface, but the marrow is soft, almost sponge like. It adds much strength to stabilize the marrow with glue. Did that in my "Neanderthal" slingshot!
Before stabilization:
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9330/antler4.jpg)
Afterwards (note the nice polish on the marrow):
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6228/antler9.jpg)
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Joerg, that is a really cool slingshot. It is a shame they are illegal where I live. :-[ Good advice about antler in general. Moose is very dense, but if I made the nut out of stag or another type of horn, that kind of stabilization would come in handy, and for future projects, I will keep that in mind.
George, my shop is hardly a full blown machine shop, but enough for my needs. I have the 7"x10" lathe, a bench grinder, drill press, machinist vice and press vice, a milling vice that goes on the drill press table, and soon, Im going to bite the bullet and get a verticle mill in the next few months for making catapult parts. I'm all set for when I make metal rolling nuts for future bows, and an espringal engine is in my future, as well as a 1000+ lb. seige crossbow and that gastrophetes I've mentioned. Hmmmm...kind of like a mini arms race all my myself, lol. Maybe I should call my shop "Skunk Works." And I agree, I love being to get new tools. I do always try to justify them with multiple purposes if I can.
I'm not too worried about inletting the tickler channel. I could and maybe should have inletted the channel before I glued up the two pieces of cherry, and should I make another bow that way, I will. But, it will be great experience for future tillers made out of solid wood, too. Pre-drilling will be in order.
Thanks for your kind words about my work. It is appreciated.
Dane
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The sear is coming along nicely. The photos illustrate the process, which was polishing one end of a 3/8" threaded rod, measuring and cutting to lenght the rod to fit the length of the rolling nut, filing and then polishing the other end of the rod, cutting lengthwise to create a step in one end of the rod, and then cutting a slot a bit further into the sear rod so I can screw it in the nut during the epoxying.
Hopefully, the last photo shows the sear farily clearly. I can't pick up some epoxy today because the storm, but will tomorrow hoperfully. After the glue sets, I will be chiseling out a slot that leads to the sear. If this still doesnt make sense, it should once I do the chisel work. Then I can polish the entire rolling nut and it will be ready to go.
Dane
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I guess this is the tricky part. Especially the sear angle on the bottom. Kinda sucks if it slips off all the time and the bow go off when you don't want it too.!!! :o
I am not exactly sure of your sear engagement so maybe you got something else in mind. Can't wait to see.
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Right, that is a concern, but I am not terribly worried about this. This trigger system is about as simple as you can possibly imagine it to be. The end of the tickler engages the sear, and will be polished with a slight convext (spelling?) on it's surface. The string pulls against the ears when the weapon is cocked / spanned, and presses the nut sear against the tickler, and so it is kind of self regulating in my mind. As long as I make sure I get the pivot in the right place for the tickler, it should be fine for a clean release and no issues with missfires.
Dane
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Hi Dane
This is one thread I look forwards to update every morning:-). I like your meticoulous work....too bad crossbows are illigal (slingshots as well) were I live.
I do have some experience with the mechanical parts of different firing mechanisms. I fear that the metal of the bolt you have used as the sear is on the soft side (if you plan to shoot it alot)...depending on your targeted drawweight ofc. The trigger/sear contact is were many crossbows give up first, as a result of wear.
Cheers
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Thanks for the kind words and your opinion. I would not have know that. And, things can be changed and adapted and fixed before they break, so to speak :) What kind of steel or other material do you recommend for the sear? Any type of metal is fine with me, as this is not an exact replica but a medieval-styled weapon.
I believe that they used to fit a steel or iron wedge into the bottom of the rolling nut to act as a sear, and I don’t see this being a problem to achieve. I imagine I will simply cut a slot into the nut and epoxy in some sort of more robust metal. The guy who did the build-along does make, to the best of my knowledge, relatively low weight weapons for light target work and SCA events, stuff like that, and I do plan to shoot this a lot if it turns out as fun as I think it will.
This crossbow will rate about 175 – 190 lbs. with an 8” draw. I do have a nice piece of hand forged iron, about 1/8” or a bit thicker (a tiny plate about 2” x 3”) – would that be suitable? I imagine if I do go that way, I will still keep the threaded rod, but just epoxy it in the nut.
All in all, it is maybe a very good thing we had 10” of snow and ice yesterday preventing me from picking up that epoxy.
Dane
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Sounds like a good suggestion to me. Couldn't you just remove the threaded sear from the rolling nut, heat it up red with a torch and then quench it in oil? That's what we did in college to turn our mild steel rod into a center punch after taking it off the lathe. The tickler will be hardened some from the hammering it gets I would think? If you were worried about it you could just weld a thin layer on the end of it and the heat from the weld would harden that. You'll have to be gentle with the grinder to keep from annealing it. But, the easiest solution would be to find a local metal shop and, after you get everything working the way you want, take the threaded sear and tickler to them to be heat treated.
George
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Like gstoneberg suggest I would try some selv tempering of the bolt...and make sure that you can replace with relative ease the sear and the trigger. In commercial trigger systems (which are not of the highest quality) the contact surface bears the full load and can (and will in my experience) be worn to a degree were the crossbow is unsafe to handle...especially while loading the arrow/bolt (I have the scars to prove it;-).
The systems that I have worked with are in principle similar to yours...but instead of a rolling nut they have small, pivoting plate.
If you dont self temper it, you could opt for a high quality machine bolt....the kinda that will actually take some stress (yours could be good enough....but if it was easy to file down, then it most likely is not):-)
Cheers....looking forward to more:-)
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Guys, Thanks! This is all good advice.
Holten, do you recommend a manufacturer for high-quality bolts, ie. not Chinese stuff you get at Home Depot? Buying just a few bolts rather than in bulk is desireable.
Baring that, I can try home heat treating. Any suggestions of what kind of oil to use for the oil bath to cool the parts? I have a hand held propane torch, but am not sure it can generate the heat I need to get the parts hot enough. They are very small parts, though, so maybe what I have will suffice?
BTW, the tickler will be easy to remove from the tiller should I need to later. Once I epoxy the sear bolt into the nut, if I had to replace the sear, I'd need to make a new nut, but that is doable if it comes to that.
Need to ask again, do you think making a sear out of that iron plate would be a good alternative? It would be relatively easy to make the part and inlet it into the nut.
Dane
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Dane, an auto parts store will have hardened bolts that should work for this. Maybe even threaded studs that would work.
Cool project, BTW Not my cup of tea but I love watching others and their projects. This is actually way above my experience level. ::)
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That's a good point Pat. You can even get grade8 bolts at Lowe's. It will make your cutting and shaping/filing a little harder, but the metal is much harder. I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done with the tickler other than heat treating it, welding it or doing a lot of hammering on it to harden it.
Good luck,
George
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Pat, good day.
Great tip! I’ll pick one up this weekend, in fact, or even today, as we are getting another snow storm starting tonight, so I may (sadly), be stuck at home and in my shop.
I agree, it is fun to see other projects unfold on PA that one wouldn’t take on themselves. I reckon that if you wanted to build something like this, you have more than the artistry and skills.
Until fairly recently, I’d never even considered building a crossbow, so I am on a sharp learning curve here. It is so much fun, I expect to build others after this one. A bigger, more powerful military bow would be fun, as would one with a composite prod, but that is a whole ‘nother subject entirely.
George, heat treating the tickler should not be that hard. I have a nifty little book called The Home Machinist’s Handbook. He recommends using a Mapp gas torch and bringing the part up to a dull red, then quenching the part in water, not oil. Would not a handheld standard propane torch get the needed temperature? The end of the tickler is a very small area that will be heat treated.
Dane
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Dane, the problem you will have using the propane torch on the tickler is that, while the part that needs heat treatment is small, the remainder acts like a heat sink drawing the heat away from the tip. If you chuck it in a vise, the metal vise jaws will also act as a heat sink. Mapp gas is quite a bit hotter burning, but I don't have a mapp gass torch so I don't have first hand knowledge. It may still work, probably depend on your torch tip design. The torch would probably work on the threaded rod as it is a lot smaller.
George
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I think you can buy a mapp gass bottle to fit a hand held torch at a regular hardware store.
Ron
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what woulde you recomend for a very SIMPLE fireing mechanism, as ni am very limited in what i can do and what time i have, school always getting in the way of building stuff,
btw if you want to make a very powerful crossbow a prod you could use is a car or golf cart suspension spring, you can get new ones on ebay.
this crossbow should be awesome looking by the time its done, where did you get the moos antler for the nut
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Good news is that my torch is in fact a Mapp torch. Hurrah. I had it in a drawer for a long while, so I had to dig it out to check it out.
Bad news is that my local auto parts store doesnt carry any threaded hardened rod. I may consider other options, too.
Fishfinder, school does that, eh? :) Some guys have built super cool, super simple primitive crossbows, with a peg pushed up through the tiller that pushes the string up and behind the bolt. I will look around for some examples that have been posted here tomorrow. So, they can be all wooden weapons.
I got the moose antler from Moscow Hide and Fur. Love that place. It was wicked expensive, but worth it.
Dane
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Well, I think I solved my sear and tickler hardening challenges.
I just placed an order for Kasenit from Track of the Wolf, and if they recommend it, I think it should be a good product, and looks like a simple way to case harden stuff. I'll be using that in combination with a Mapp torch for both the sear area of the bolt and the trigger end of the tickler.
I found some 3/8" Class 8 bolts, rather than Class 5 bolts, and would not have known about those if it wasnt for this thread, so thanks to everyone.
Arg, now I have to wait for the Kasenit and of course, the prod, tickler, and stirrup. In the meantime, I'll be ordering some crossbow quarrel heads and making a set of quarrels. I can also make a leather or wicker quiver and belt for the spanning claw.
Dane
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i did make one reletivley successful one, it was around 90 lbs and all it was was a slot that would hold the string a i would have a piece of wood under it to leverage it out
can wait to see how this one comes out, looks great so far
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Thanks, Fishfinder.
That slot arrangement with the peg pushing up the string is exactly the simple type I was referring to. Some guys here have made ones like that, they look like fun. One of the big problems with that system is that the sting slams forward into the base of the bolt.
Dane
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I am enjoying your thread Dane. It strikes me as ironic that slingshots are outlawed where you live, and you are building cross bows and siege engines! :-) I am guessing the local politicos will be passing some new ordnances when you roll your stuff out of the shop!!!! >:D
Keith
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The irony is so thick you can slice it and serve it for breakfast. If they were going to come get me, they would have a couple of years ago when the local paper ran a feature story about a Roman event I was hosting at my gun club. In it, I discussed my activities in my shop / garage.
My nosy next door neighboor, since deceased, also knew about the 100-lb. WWII bomb I have hanging over my desk when it was delivered, so I guess all that is fine as long as I dont make a slingshot or a blow gun. :)
Or accidentaly call 9-1-1. Never do that. :)
Dane
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Dane
I have sooo much enjoyed this thread. Can't wait to see more pics...Highly informative.
I know we are not to talk politics ( not directly anyway ), BUT....I do believe that if the PA community ever all moved into one geographic area.....WELL, I believe a new state would be born ;D ;) ;D.
Just kidding...I think. ::) >:D
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Dane, this thread IS more or less a tutorial, but, I and am sure others would appreciate a complete HOW-TO on your detailed "start to finish" on this project. You got a winner here.
Great Job
and God Bless
Ron
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The State of PA is good, :)
Thanks, Ron. I do intent to create a very detailed build-along once the crossbow is finished and shooting, with video, more history of the crossbow, showcasing the work of others, etc. I really do appreciate your words and interest, and those of other who have contributed to this thread. I wasn't sure if a crossbow was even something appropriate for PA, so I am glad too that this topic had remained alive.
Dane
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I've really enjoyed it too I can hardly wait for the nest installment.
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just a opinion, but i saw we have all PA members take over RI and make a hunting fishing bowmakeing paradise
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just a opinion, but i saw we have all PA members take over RI and make a hunting fishing bowmakeing paradise
DITTO>>>DITTO>>>DITTO!!!
Did I mention that would be a great idea! DITTO...OOPS already said that...
JMO Col would be nice. It may be land-locked, but the dear, elk, and some good fishin are available. Moose too.
Just got to watch those bear up in the higher parts of the primitives.....Personal experience ;)
God Bless
Ron
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Choose a state where the food is great, like New Mexico, :) And not too much snow.
Quick update. I got my pound can of Kasenet, which is a surface hardening compound. I have to heat the metal parts (sear bolt and tickler) cherry red, then coat that area with this stuff, then reheat and quench in clearn water. There is way too much snow (4 feet or so) outside, so I have to wait a bit to do it outside.
The plug is cut and just has to be glued in, then shaped and sanded to match the contour of the tiller. Later, I will make lock plates out of rawhide or wood, so the plug is effectively hidden.
The biggie is of course waiting to get my prod and tickler, grrrr. I hope those come soon, as I pretty much can't do much more work until I get those parts. So, I am working on a Neolithic bow replica, some atlatls, an ash table for the outside deck, and other stuff. I wish I could post more on progress, but am in this holding pattern for now. I also picked up some steel shelving and will spend some snowbound time reconfiguring the shop area. Part of me wants to do some carving on the tiller, but since I have never really done any serious carving, it would be probably ill advised at this point. :)
Dane
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DITTO>>>DITTO>>>DITTO!!!
Did I mention that would be a great idea! DITTO...OOPS already said that...
JMO Col would be nice. It may be land-locked, but the dear, elk, and some good fishin are available. Moose too.
Just got to watch those bear up in the higher parts of the primitives.....Personal experience ;)
God Bless
Ron
[/quote]
insytead of that i say we take all of new newengland, and northern newyork, we would have access to the great lakes, and the Atlantic, we also got some moose and too many deer and the fishing..... don't even get me started about the fishing!
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DITTO>>>DITTO>>>DITTO!!!
Did I mention that would be a great idea! DITTO...OOPS already said that...
JMO Col would be nice. It may be land-locked, but the dear, elk, and some good fishin are available. Moose too.
Just got to watch those bear up in the higher parts of the primitives.....Personal experience ;)
God Bless
Ron
insytead of that i say we take all of new newengland, and northern newyork, we would have access to the great lakes, and the Atlantic, we also got some moose and too many deer and the fishing..... don't even get me started about the fishing!
Dane pardon the levity, But ;D
Now that we have a location...Need a plan. Maybe even a pamphlet that Homeland Security could read and learn from ::) ;D
Dane
When will we be gettin more pics?
Ron
[/quote]
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o common that would ruin the surprise, now what fun would that be?
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fishfinder
You are one sick pup...I like that! >:D
Ron
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no im pretty healthy it is the rest of the world that is sick! \m/ >:D\m/
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Since I live in New England, if we take that over, I want at least a barony, and lots of serfs to work my land and clean the castle.
So, not too much has been done on my little monster, as I am still (grrrrr) waiting on the prod, sturrup and tickler. I did finally get the plug glued in and sanded down. The glue line is not perfect, but doesn't have to be, as it will be covered with a lock plate on the side, and the top of the tiller will be covered with the holly wood plating.
And alas, that is all I have to report for now. I'm going to wait to heat treat the rolling nut sear and the tickler at the same time, so nothing to say on that front. All the rest should go farily quickly once I get those parts, as I really want to get this project done and kill some foam deer and paper targets.
Baron Dane
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how about we run it as co kings, although that would just lead to a power stuggle, hopefully your project isn't dune by then >:D
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I can’t believe almost 3 months has gone by since I last posted. Life got in the way, but mostly, it took the company who made my prod (bow) a very long time to get my order to me. So, sorry for the long delay for anyone following this topic.
I decided that I wanted to build a new tiller (stock in crossbow / arbalest terminology - fun with new words). The first one I was pleased with, but not so pleased when I realized how much of a pain it was to chisel in the tickler (trigger) channel for a fully-carved tiller. I had enough of that cherry live edge plank left over to make a second tiller, so that is what I did. After milling two pieces to the correct dimensions (about 3.5" x 1.5" x 36"), I measured and set where I wanted the rolling nut socket to be, and drilled the socket holes in each half of the tiller using a drill press and a 1.25” Forstner bit.
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After test fitting and making sure I got it right, I then chiseled in the channel for the tickler. It was fast and easy work. Another benefit over the other way I was making the weapon is that I didn’t have to deal with a plug and then a lock plate, so it is much cleaner in appearance and a stronger tiller overall. I also drilled the hole for the 8/32 threaded rod that will be the tickler pivot pin, first through the tickler itself (center punching and then on the drill press), then through one half and then through the second half. I fretted and messed about a great deal with this step, but the care is worth the time, and the tickler has about an inch of travel from cocked to firing positions.
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Gotta do some errands. More later today.
Dane
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Hey Dane,
Long time no talk to. I love this thread. Last time we talked you were talking bout the scorpio and the Roman reinacting.
This is off the charts way cool. Keep it up. ;D
Oh hey.... Could you message me that web site? I never did get to it.
Can't wait for more....
Jimmy
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Jimmy, thanks for the kind words. Please remind me of that website....I am blanking on it. :) 3 months is a long time.
Next step was to do the glue up. I left enough wood for the flat top of the tiller so I could hand plane and sand it so I had a flat surface at a perfect 90 degree angle relative to the sides of the tiller. Being wobbly is fine if you have been out carousing, but not if you want an accurate crossbow. :)
Notice the little tweak in the wood next to the socket. Since I was gluing up the two sides, it wasnt that importnat, although not pretty.
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So, next step was hewing and carving the tiller to the desired shape. I used my tiny band saw to cut out the basic shape of the tiller, and then did the glue up, using Tightbond III and wooden handscrew clamps, the same kind Uncle Fester used when he had a headache. Then, I used primarily a hatchet, adz (invaluable tool for me), draw knife, rasps and files. Making stuff is probably more fun than the completed project, so the process is always my favorite part of any project, and seeing it evolve is the best part for me.
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The prod socket was next. This was probably the most stressful step for me. Not only did the socket have to conform to the shape of the prod, but had to be a perfect 90 degrees to the tiller, and I had to have a 6 percent angle so the string will clear the top of the tiller and end up exactly the right height at full draw to engage the end of the quarrel / bolt. The prod is 175# at an 8” draw, and the brace height is 3.5”, so a total of 11.5 from the prod to the rolling nut.
I used the bandsaw to rough cut, then a 1” chisel to create the socket. It actually didn’t take that long to do this step, and I had no issues aside from a bit of tearing of the grain at one point, but nothing fatal and it will be hidden entirely by the prod once it is bound in place. Rasps and files finished this step, and the prod fits snuggly, but not so tight that pressure from drawing the weapon will crack the joint.
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More photos of the prod socket. I tested the angle with a piece of linen string, and was satisfied that the string will clear the table all the way through the draw and firing of the weapon.
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Prod socket continued....
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Next, I hand fitted the holly wood plates that will cover the table of the tiller. Historically, many crossbows had bone or ivory plates fitted on top, and I had planned to make the plates out of bone. I picked up more than sufficient cow bone material at a pet store, but realized that I didn’t really want to work this much bone for as long as it would have taken. The stink is wretched, and the dust is not something you want to breathe. I chose a very nice plank of super white holly from my local hardwood dealer. This piece was absolutely and terribly expensive, about 60 dollars for a plank about 1” x 4” x 40”, but it will look great, a very ivory-like shade, so I deemed it worth the investment. The little bandsaw I have was not up to resawing the plank in half, so most of it was sacrificed to the arbalest gods. I ran the plank through my thickness planer until I had it about 1/8” thick, and had already rough cut it out for the first tiller, but thankfully, I had left enough extra that I was able to use the pre-cut pieces.
And that is where it stands. This morning, I continued to glue on the plating, and should have that step done by the end of the weekend. For decoration, I found some ¾” wide tulip wood veneer strips with dyed edging, and that should like really good. I will chisel in a channel along the table, and this will create a kind of border between the bottom edge of the table plating and the tiller. The red shade of the tulip is different than the red shade of the cherry tiller, so the contrast will be nice. I played with the idea of inlaying white and black dyed bone, and while that would look great, I think I will save that for another crossbow. If this doesn’t seem to make sense, I’ll be illustrating with photos soon.
You can expect more of this project soon, as I am cranking on it and can see the light at the end of the build. After I get the inlaying done and finish the table, I will bore the binding hole in the nose of the bow, make the string and the bastard string, bind the prod and the stirrup to the tiller, and mess about with final adjustments and begin shooting it. I may make a simple medieval sight, which is basically a little strip of brass with a series of holes drilled in it that is hinged, and lays flat or can be raised up when ready to shoot; think of it as a primitive peep sight, and you use the tip of the quarrel as the front sighting point.
The finish I plan for this will be boiled linseed oil and a few coats of tung oil, which will be a nice medieval look. Then I can poach the king’s deer. This bow is hardly strong enough to be considered a military bow. Those kinds of weapons are for the future, and I’ve found that crossbows are as addictive as self bows, maybe even more so.
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Oh, one last thing, here are two shots of an actual German hunting bow. While mine is not quite this fancy, this is the inspiration I have used as I make this little beast.
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WOW......Looking fantastic...
I can't wait to see the finished product...
Oh...sorry I meant that Knight's Armoury site...
Jimmy
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Dane
Very cool project. You always have something interesting that you are working on. Great progress, and looking forward to more updates.
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Jimmy, there is the link http://www.stormthewalls.kicks-ass.net/ Unfortuantely, the site is down, as it often is grrrr.
Thanks again for the compliments. I have finished gluing on the table facing, and will begin inletting the docorative stuff today. I have a lot of momemtum now, so I will press on and get this finished as soon as I can and not mess things up.
Rick, thanks! I will see you in June, and hopefully, you will be able to shoot this little beast at Woodbury.
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Well, got a lot of work done today, and it is not even 10 AM. It reminds me of those old Army recruiting commercials...."we get more done before 9 AM than most people do all day. Be all you can be."
Here is one shot of the quarrel rest slot, as I defined and deepened it. It isn’t perfect jointry by any means, but the decorated strip will hid the imperfect dovetail slot, and the quarrel rest itself looks a bit like a front site, but what it does is minimize drag on the quarrel as it leaves the weapon. It may be hard to see, but the nose of the bow slopes down, and the quarrel rest will have a slot filed into it once I determine the diameter of the quarrels for this weapon. The rest has a very tight fit, so I can tap it to adjust for windage as I shoot it in.
The plating is now finished and rough sanded.
Finally, I chiseled in the slot to inlay the decorative strip. I am less than pleased with the job I did, as there was some instances of wood grain tear, but I plan to hide that by mixing sawdust and glue together and making a kind of paste to fill in the tiny gaps. I probably should have skipped this step for a first weapon, but it looks pretty, and I like the strange paradox of highly decorated, beautified killing machines.
I think I am about done for today. I will continue inlaying the decorative strip this week, and then can do the final sanding after touching up gaps in the inlay areas. Expect to see more posted this week, as I make a binding block and get ready to bind the prod and stirrup to the weapon. The stirrup still needs some work, but that is pretty easy if labor intensive filing and polishing.
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Last shots of this process, ugly little gaps and all :)
Dane
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Looks great. So good to see it nearing completion. Can't wait for more!
George
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Thanks, George. I am getting anxious to get this project shooting. Of course, we all know what happens when you rush these things, but still, I am confident it will be completed soon enough.
Dane
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In the last ten days, I have discovered I am not that good at inlaying wood, antler, or horn :) Which is okay, as it is a skill I now see I need to improve.
After trying inlaying the wood strips, I was not happy with the outcome, and so I got rid of them with the help of a chisel, and I then decided to inlay alternating pieces of antler and horn, a kind of checkerboard pattern if you only had one row on your board.
It simply didn't look as good as I wanted, and even though I spend many hours on this step, this morning, out came the chisel and off came the inlay work, which was nearly complete on both sides.
It was just a matter of planing down the wood and reshaping a bit. The tiller actually (I think) looks better, slimmer and more fit to fight. Nothing wrong with the pure beauty of plain wood, and the cherry against the holly table I think looks really nice.
A bit more sanding is necessary, but overall, the tiller is close to being ready to finish, which will be a coat of boiled linseed oil and a few coats of tung oil.
I made the binding block around noon today. Notice it has a flat top, and ears that pass the width of the tiller on both sides. Those ears will be used to bind the prod to the tiller, and then the flat area will facilitate binding on the stirrup with linen cord. I will be using hemp to bind on the prod, and I am now about ready to bore and chisel out the binding hole, which will be just aft of where the tiller nose begins to slope down. Hopefully, I can make the binding hole this weekend and then get the tiller finished. I still have to bore a small hole to bind the rolling nut into the socket hole, but that is a very simple operation.
More soon,
Dane
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It looks great to me!
George
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Getting close to the finished product! It's looking really good.
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Thanks, guys.
Well, the binding hole is now finished, and I have to say, there was much fear and trepidation in the making of this. My drill press vice was not big enough to hold the tiller, so I had to improvise with a scrap of cherry wood and a wood clamp on the drill press table. I drew a line down the center of the tiller, the used the highly lame method of a square and ruler and lots of monkeying around to get the tiller what I hoped would be dead on. I used a 1" fostner bit to drill the hole itself, and have seen round binding holes, oblong ones, square ones, and kind of D shaped ones. I figured keep it simple and go with the round hole and I will be fine.
The boring went well, and I am happy with the results. I rounded the edges of the hole on both sides with a half round file and then sandpaper, and then drilled the little holes for the 3/4" escutheon pins I used to "nail" on the table facing wood. If I had actually used bone plating for the table, these nails would serve an actual purpose. But, since I glued on the hollly and it aint going anywhere (and I am pretty proud of how good a glue up was, since I had to do more than a bit of hand planing of the table top to get it totally flat), the nails are just a bit of medieval bling.
Later today, I'm going to pick up some boiled linseed oil and some blueing chemicals for the sturrup and tickler. I doubt a 15th century abalest maker would have had Birchwood Casey products in his shop, but that is one of the advantages to living in the here and now :)
More soon,
Dane of York, Arbalest Maker lol.
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Woohoo, love it. Finish that baby up so we can see an arrow loosed! ;D
George
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Doing my best, George. For certain, the finish will be complete by the end of Monday, and this week, I'll be making the string and the bastard string. The bluing I think I can get done this weekend as well. This week I'll be making a dozen quarrels, as well.
For certain, I will shoot video of the arbalest in action...no guarantee the guy behind the trigger is going to do so well. The little brass medieval rear sight I plan to make should help. Maybe lol. Perhaps one of those smurf-looking Flemish pointy medieval hat will help me judge wind velocity and direction.
So close.....
Dane
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Before I forget, I will also be making a belt hook for that method of spanning the weapon. It is a hook secured to a leather belt, of a certain length. You lean down by bending the knees, hook the hook over the string, slip your foot into the sturrup, and then stand up to draw the string to the nut. For 175 lbs pulll, that should do the trick.
Dane
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Before I forget, I will also be making a belt hook for that method of spanning the weapon. It is a hook secured to a leather belt, of a certain length. You lean down by bending the knees, hook the hook over the string, slip your foot into the sturrup, and then stand up to draw the string to the nut. For 175 lbs pulll, that should do the trick.
Dane
instead of the hook, you could just have me pull it for you ;)
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Great idea....I can just lug you around and you can do the spanning. Do I have to feed and house you too? :)
The little beast is coming along, and the tiller is now done! Minor adjustments are probably going to be necessary, but I consider this sucker finished. For the finish, I used a coat of refined linseed oil, then about 4 layers of tung oil. The stuff is pleasant to work with, smells nice, and dries quickly. The more coats I put on, the shinier the finish, so I stopped where I did as I lliked how it looked. It feels very silky, as well.
I liked the look of the brass nails so much on the table that I added a few more to give it a pattern, and then recalled I had some 5.8" brass domed tacks. Since medieval Europe was overwhelmingly Christian, a cross pattern would look cool. Plus, I placed them on the tiller where they will help the shooter grip the bow tiller.
In retrospective, I would have made a paper pattern before dilling the starter holes for the brass tacks, so each side is identical. It looks good enough though, so I will call this step finished.
Note that today is a very cloudy, flat day, so the cherry is not as true to color as the actual bow. Flash shots are much redder, but again, not totally correct.
Last shot is my pug Davenport investigating the tiller. Not only cute, it gives you an idea of the size of this thing.
More soon,
Dane
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Great idea....I can just lug you around and you can do the spanning. Do I have to feed and house you too? :)
nah, just let me keep a fishing pole and tent with me and ill be fine ;D
noel
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Well, the arbalest is coming along very quickly now. In railroad terms, I have a full head of steam and am highballing up the mainline.
Tonight, I finished polishing, shaping, and blueing the sturrup, and blueing the tickler / trigger. I used Birchwood Casey cold blueing, and it is really very simple stuff to use. I used two coats of the chemical between buffing with steel wool, then soaking the part in oil and letting it sit overnight.
I also finished making the skein last night, which is the bowstring. Making one of these is very easy, like making an endless bowstring. I used waxed natural colored linen thread to serve the eyes, and learned the art of coxcombing. That is the little tiny series of what appears to be knots along the outside of the eye. Later, I will explain how you make one of these, but anyone who has learned to make bowsting can handle this easily. I expect as I make more of these in the future, the serving will get neater, as well. I still have to serve the string center, but this step is not quite as easy as when you serve a bowstring. That is because stringing a 12" long metal bow that pulls 175 pounds is not so fun.
However, I have a plan, and it involves a long, long lever.
More soon,
Dane
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Looks great! I hadn't thought about how difficult it would be to string a crossbow prod. :o Keep the pics coming. :)
George
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Must ask, why the macrame knots, you refer to it as coxcombing, surely the purpose of the serving is to protect the eye and this is best done with a smooth serving, but because of the knots the inside of the loop is anything but smooth?
Craig.
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George, thanks. I expect each string to get easier and neater to make with experience.
Which leads to your posting, Craig. Serving the eye with just pressure of each thread would not be enough. Remember, this is all new to me, so other methods will be tried in the future. The buildalong I am following for this project was written by someone who has been building crossbows professionally for some time. His reasoning is that each knot keeps the thread in place, otherwise, pressure and friction each time the bow is spanned and shot will eventually push the threads apart and the eye will wear out that much more quickly. Once one thread breaks, the entire skein should be retired for safety's sake. The bow is made of metal, not as forgiving as wood, bone, or antler, and the draw weight being very high factors in, too, I siuspect.
I looked up coxcombing in The Ashley Book of Knots, which is a definiative book on the subject of knots. Mostly they had nautical applications, and this technique of serving eyes was called "ringbolt hitching." There are many, many ways to do this, depending on material and application of the eye. Eye splicing too has many methods and reasons behind them. In the end, the serving methods are used to keep the eye from wearing out faster.
In the end, first hand experience counts most, and just shooting the weapon and observing how long the string lasts and where it wears the most is the best way to judge all this.
Dane
PS Coxcomb is a very old word, used by Shakespear, and one definition is a fobbish and pretentious person, a poppenjay. Seems to me a good term to keep in mind as an insult. lol.
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Awesome thread. Still watching for updates everyday. I would love to fire off one. How will you keep the arrow centered near the end? I see how its going to be helld at the nock end.
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Thanks, Bigcountry.
On page two, toward the bottom, is a photo of the quarrel rest, not yet installed, which is how I will do that. It is made of bone, and slides into a dovetailed slot at the nose of the tiller. I will file a notch into the rest for the bolt / quarrles, and it also can be adjusted slightly to the left and right as I shoot in the weapon. It will look a bit like a blackpowder rifle rear sight, but for crossbows, you use the tip of the bolt as the front sight, like with a regular bow.
Photos tomorrow, but the tickler is installed now, as is the tickler spring, and I am making a big spanning device to help me string the bow in conjunction with a bastard string, which I also made today out of 1/8" steel cable. I'll post photos of all that tomorrow. The device is hideously ugly, a nightmare even Rube Goldberg would hate, but only I will be seeing it (and you guys, of course lol).
Dane
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Just love this hread Dane. I think coxcomb is terrific. I love discovering ancient techniques and uses and their names. It's kinda like how many times do you see a Habadashery these days. ::)
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Thanks, glad you are enjoying this little journy. Indeed, I think all of us share a love for ancient technolgies, and we are definately a backward-looking bunch. My wife got an i-pad, and I joked that while she is messing around with modern stuff, I'm moving back toward the stone age.
If you can find a haberdashery, I'll try and find a cobbler. We will have about the same luck, I think :)
Dane
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Hey that's coming on nicely. Make sure you round off the front edge of that binding hole plenty so as not to chaffe.
Del
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George, thanks. I expect each string to get easier and neater to make with experience.
Which leads to your posting, Craig. Serving the eye with just pressure of each thread would not be enough. Remember, this is all new to me, so other methods will be tried in the future. The buildalong I am following for this project was written by someone who has been building crossbows professionally for some time. His reasoning is that each knot keeps the thread in place, otherwise, pressure and friction each time the bow is spanned and shot will eventually push the threads apart and the eye will wear out that much more quickly. Once one thread breaks, the entire skein should be retired for safety's sake. The bow is made of metal, not as forgiving as wood, bone, or antler, and the draw weight being very high factors in, too, I siuspect.
I looked up coxcombing in The Ashley Book of Knots, which is a definiative book on the subject of knots. Mostly they had nautical applications, and this technique of serving eyes was called "ringbolt hitching." There are many, many ways to do this, depending on material and application of the eye. Eye splicing too has many methods and reasons behind them. In the end, the serving methods are used to keep the eye from wearing out faster.
In the end, first hand experience counts most, and just shooting the weapon and observing how long the string lasts and where it wears the most is the best way to judge all this.
Dane
PS Coxcomb is a very old word, used by Shakespear, and one definition is a fobbish and pretentious person, a poppenjay. Seems to me a good term to keep in mind as an insult. lol.
Will be interesting to hear how it goes.
I have "The Crossbow" by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey and have looked at his instructions and drawings on the construction of strings and as I thought he did not use the "coxcomb" method. But then again older methods are not always the best. I wish you luck with your endevour.
Coxcomb also spelt cockscomb is from the Middle English for the crest or comb of a cockerel, as you suggest it also was used to mean a dandy or someone who is overly concerned with his dress and looks.
Craig.
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Dane this is just awesome! great pics and attention to detail on your posts.
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Del, thank you! You have a lot of experience in these things, so I appreciate any input and advice. You were the reason I decided to redo the tiller and mill the nut hole before the glue up.
Craig, I have the same book, but dont really trust him enough to follow a lot of his advice. Just check out what he has to say about thumb rings. Horrible stuff. His information on catapults are laughable Victorian fantasies, as wel. I may try his method of serving a string one day, though.
Eric, thank you.
I got my horrible looking spanning stand done, but we were dog sitting and the pooches got a bit needy today. Itching to get the string on the prod and serve it, then bind the prod and restring it. I also made some bolts today. Next time I take photos, I will include them.
Dane
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Dane,
Craig, I have the same book, but dont really trust him enough to follow a lot of his advice. Just check out what he has to say about thumb rings. Horrible stuff. His information on catapults are laughable Victorian fantasies, as wel. I may try his method of serving a string one day, though.
Not sure I agree with you fully there, and yes on thumb rings he had no idea, he apparently wore them backwards. His stuff on catapults is somewhat lacking but his stuff on crossbows, the main point of the book, is pretty good and as he had a number of extant medieval and reformation models to play around with is worth taking note of.
As for serving a crossbow string, I would be inclined to make the string in the same manner as people make endless strings today, that is I would use an endless string a jig that would allow me to properly and smoothly serve the area of the loops before they are actually formed into loops.
Craig.
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Craig, I may have been a bit harsh in my assessment, and meant no offense to you, but what most bothers me about his work is that he portrays himself as an authority, and yet he was writing about thumb rings in this way. One time only trying to use a thumb ring in the matter he illustrates proves to me that he never actually tried using that device, and made assumptions about what that little tab thingie is, or he obtained the incorrect information from some other party or source.
Thus, other areas of the work are suspect to me. I do wish to say there is a wealth of useful information in his work as well, but I will always read him with a bit of suspicion.
There must be more than one method to making a crossbow string, and I expect to try other methods over time. For now, I’m happy with what I did produce, and as I said, experience is the best way to learn. I also came into this project with my eyes wide open that mistakes will be made, craftsmanship will be less that ideal in some areas, and so on.
I’ve also found over the last couple of days just how difficult it is to pull back a 12.5”tip-to-tip, 190 lb. bow to get the string on it. My Rube Goldberg device worked wonderfully (essentially a 4’ long x 9” x 9” column from an aborted Roman catapult stand, a 4’ lever, leather strap, and hook), but I could only get the bastard string pulled back not much more than 1”. I tried just my own arms and gloved hands, but came up short as well.
I then remembered I have an extra loom just sort of laying about (really). It has been taking up space for the last decade, and will never be used again. Part of the loom is a very nice ratchet and pawl that keeps saying “use me.” I also have a large amount of ash boards, a thickness planer, some pulleys, lag bolts and carriage bolts, and the ability to create strong joints (mortise and tenon, saddle, etc).
A kind of machine I can both span and string heavy, short steel and aluminum prods (something like our conventional tiller trees), as well as secure and span and string / unstring already complete crossbows would come in handy. I am asking myself right now what a medieval arbalest maker’s shop would have been equipped with, and if they had something similar besides overworked apprentices to achieve certain tasks. And, the heavier you make your weapon, the more you need the mechanical advantage of a machine of some sort gives you over just unaided muscle power.
These projects do demand an additional set of skills and familiarity with mediums I find frustrating and enjoyable to learn and master, as well, which adds to both the challenge and my ability to solve problems.
Plan B, btw, is that I ordered an additional prod, but this time in the 85-110 lb. weight. That I know I can handle with my weak 21st century muscles :), as I finish designing and then building the above described machine. It would benefit me as the future becomes the present, as I am certain that I have more arbalests to make and replicate, as well as the weird and little-known variants to this kind of weapons technology. The Roman arcuballista is one, those nifty Chinese repeating crossbows look like so much fun, the ancient Greek gastrophetes, tension catapults of various kinds, the vastly powerful siege crossbows, early all wood crossbows, and we have so many examples of surviving crossbows, bolts and accessories in various collections and museums, an array of spanning devices like the cranquin, belt hooks, belt pulleys, goats foot, etc, one could spend a lifetime and barely scratch the surface of this sub-set of historic archery.
Enough pontificating for now lol.
Dane
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Dane,
Craig, I may have been a bit harsh in my assessment, and meant no offense to you, but what most bothers me about his work is that he portrays himself as an authority, and yet he was writing about thumb rings in this way. One time only trying to use a thumb ring in the matter he illustrates proves to me that he never actually tried using that device, and made assumptions about what that little tab thingie is, or he obtained the incorrect information from some other party or source.
Mate no offense was taken, why would I be offended at your thoughts on someone I have no connection with nd who is long dead. Having said that I'm afraid I have to correct you here, he did actually shoot his turkish/asiatic bows and I believe gained the then world (western world) record for distance/flight while using the thumb ring wrongly. He apparently continued to use thumb rings this way throughout his life.
As for initially spanning your bow, can you make a simple device similar to the presses used by compound archers, it would only need to be a couple of blocks that bear on the outside of the limbs and a lever or screw that presses on the centre of the bow, this would be much safer that using a string to do the initial spanning. The bow could not be attached to the stock if this method is used.
Craig.
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Thanks, Craig. I do belive you about the thumb ring! Oh my gosh, but it seemed to work for him, I guess. He must have been a very unusual person.
I've been working the kinks out of a crossbow press design, so that is the delay in this thread. I am making it from white ash, and have designed it so I can span / unspan a mounted bow prod as well as a prod not on the bow if necessary. I'm canabalising a ratchet mechanism from an old portable loom, and it should more than do the trick. I hope to have that built in the next few weeks. Right now, I am back to finishing a medieval style trestle table for the outside deck. I am about a year overdue on that project, which my wife most pointedly remind me about last week. :)
Dane
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I feel a bit guilty as I haven’t posted anything in a while. However, the beat goes on and the project continues. The delay this time is having to finish up some long-ago promises, including a medieval-style trestle table for our deck (final sanding and then finishing now, hurrah), and the need for some monster muscles or a mechanical aid.
I’m relatively strong, but pulling back a short little 175 – 190 lb. steel bow to string it is way beyond my capabilities, as well as Hans and Fran, Dolf Ludgren, and Chief AJ combined. :) So, I need a bow press of sorts, something like the wheelie guys’ dealers use to change strings, etc.
I came up with a plan for a press that combines a hardwood frame (2”x2” up to 3”x3” stock) with a series of pegs similar to one method that the Asiatic composite folks sometimes use to span those enormously powerful bows. Think of this contraption as a reverse tillering tree. The idea is that I will slip the crossbow into this with the prod (bow) resting beneath the two (padded) square pegs at the bottom of the press. This is similar to how the early crossbows were spanned / drawn, with the guy standing on the prod with both feet on either side of the tiller, next to the binding cords and pulling the string up to hook on the rolling nut.
I am cannibalizing an old floor loom for the ratchet and pawl mechanism. That is indicated on this sketch by the yellow ring, as I didn’t want to bother trying to draw that in any kind of detail. The 1” holes on each side of the frame for this thing will aid in spanning the bow. A pulley will be secured beneath the top cross member, and a rope with a hook will come down and attach to the bastard string (already made from 1/8” steel wire and bolted to the prod ends with C-clamps).
I simply (he says) secure the crossbow in this torture rack, crank on the ratchet mechanism, and the prod tips move up. When it is at the draw length I need to string it or unstring it, I slip in the 1” hardwood pegs, do my thing, and then reverse to unspan the prod. Neat thing is I don’t need an assistant to help me do the stringing even with a light (say, 80 lb.) prod, let alone a heavier 200 lb. to 400+ lb. prods I plan for future projects. The more robust construction reflects my interest in the heavier war-weight arbalests.
On the reverse side of the press is a block for spanning prods NOT attached to a crossbow tiller, just like a tillering tree. This will be necessary to string the prod for serving a bow string, something that can’t easily be done with the prod already bound to the tiller.
Probably this thing is overbuilt, and overly complicated, but I have enough hickory and ash boards, and I’d rather have an overbuilt safe machine instead of something made from pine 2x4s that may give me untold grief. It will be fun to put together, too, and I am pretty sure I am going to be the first kid on my block to have one.
One suggestion I got from the Arbalist Guild crowd (an online place similar to Primitive Archer, and full of really cool folks) and I think Craig here on PA is the make a simple press using marine boat trailer rollers and some sort of jack, but I honestly can’t figure out how I would do that. This thing I think will do the trick, and it will be furniture quality, as well. I will be making either saddle or half-lap joints (going to cheat a bit and use a band saw to help make the joints, but chisels are still necessary) reinforced with bolts at all joints, so it should be strong enough. I hope so, anyway.
If anyone has different ideas, please do share. I guess in the end, I can use this for very, very short heretics if I decide to “go inquisition” (a riff on Pulp Fiction, one of my favorite films). Short heretics almost never admit the truth and that makes burning them at the stake such an ordeal, so the rack will be nice to get confessions more easily.
Dane
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Dane,
A simple press that comes to mind would consist of a rigid beam about the length of the prod, to which are attached 2 blocks whose height above the rigid beam is slightly more than the desired brace height and whose position is such that when the prod is braced sufficiently to allow stringing or un-stringing do not interfere with the string nocks. The prod is placed so it lies across the blocks and a pair of strong G or C clamps are placed either side of the bow stock or if unmounted in positions that would be either side of the stock and used to draw the prod towards the rigid beam.
The rigid beam could be made of wood just make it thick enough to resist the bending forces, bolt stuff together if necessary. If the clamps prove difficult to turn then use shifting spanners (wrenches) or stilsons etc.
Craig.
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Thanks for the idea, Craig. I can envision this method. I'd have to chisel out a slot to accomidate the sturrup and binding materials to make this work, but that would not be hard to do.
Dane