Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: zenmonkeyman on March 31, 2011, 11:07:22 pm
-
Somewhere in the Bowyers' Bible series (Vol 1 I think) somebody (Tim Baker I think) debunks the slow seasoning myth. Does everybody agree with him? Is a green-reduced 3wk stave as good as a 2-3yr bark-on seasoned stave?
Here's where the question comes from. Last year I made a coupla serviceberry bows, dried as fast as the air in my apartment could do it. There was hardly any heart wood. Just the other day I started a serviceberry stave that I'd left with the bark on for a year. It's almost ALL heartwood! There's only a paper-thin white skin on the outside. Does the conversion from sapwood to heartwood continue in an unsplit, un-de-barked stave? Has anybody else seen this with other woods? Or is my heartwood stave just a coincidence?
-
ok i'll take a stab at this...
i think there is still dabate over drying times, but my opinion is that it doesn't matter how long you take to get to the desired moisture content. that is, fast drying is fine as long as the wood doesnt check or otherwise get physically damaged by the changes in dimentions accompanying drying. I think the prob with quick drying is that people migt not get it dry enough- mabe its dry on the outside, but inner moisture creeps out and leads to set. some woods i use (vine maple) seem to dry quickly and without much set from use. others (black locust, ocean spray) cannot be dried quick due to cheaking (splitting)
also, i doubt that heartwood conversion continues after cutting (maybe a little, like one ring worth max). this is just an educated guess...
-
I disagree with Tim. Not that quick drying doesn't work and have its place but stuff happens during seasoning that does give small benefits over quick drying.
Over time, particularly if wood goes through the moisture cycling of a few seasons the wood gradually shrinks more than it does upon initiial drying. That equals increased density and stability.
-
im gonna have to say that long term easoning makes for better wood
i was given a hhb slefbow that a guy made,it was dry for a year when he tilered the bow
it was tillered to about 55#,he shot it or a season,then started making glass bows and this stayed in rafters of his garrage for near 10 yrs
thats when i got the bow
it now pulls over 70#,i can just barely get it to full draw
eventually im gonn retiller it
-
I think whitewoods handle quick drying better than osage, mulberry and locust(and a few others). These oilier woods need time to cure out well. IMO I built a 60" osage static recurve a few years ago that was two months off the stump. Even though it worked like dry wood it developed more set than usual and fretted in one limb. I very rarely get frets in osage. After a year I repaired this bow by grinding down the belly and adding an osage belly lam and retillered it. Today it is a great shooting bow...I just didn't let the wood season long enough before stressing it in the original build.
I do think there is a difference in well seasoned and just dry wood.
-
To me it's very simple, it depends on how much you value the wood.
I take care with my Yew* as it's in short supply, but I'll try quick seasoning with stuff I can get hold easilly, like Hazel, which I've found seems to respond well to quick seasoning on a radiator.
So experiment, but only if you are willing to accept the possible result.
Del
* I have put Yew on my magic radiator but only after it's already had 9 months seasoning as a much reduced stave and it's been de-barked for a while.
-
Pretty much what Pat said,I like seasoned wood better, Don't seem to have as many suprises
when tillering. :)
Pappy
-
Zenmonkeyman, it is absolutely impossible that sapwood turns into heartwood after it has been cut. Sapwood is defines as the outer layer of wood in a tree that contains living cells and is responsible for water and nutrient transportation. Heartwood consists of only dead cells, where the vessels have been blocked so they no longer transport water or nutrients. Upon felling a tree, the trees is basically killed, which stops the transformation of sapwood into heartwood.
Over time, particularly if wood goes through the moisture cycling of a few seasons the wood gradually shrinks more than it does upon initiial drying. That equals increased density and stability.
Could you elaborate on that, please? I see no reason why slowly shrunk wood has shrunk more than quickly shrunk wood - which is basically what you are saying. Have you ever measured a stave to see the difference in pre- and post-drying dimensions?
What I think often happens, is that people "quick dry" a stave. They place a chunk of wood on the radiator or in a hot car, and they just expect it to be dry after three weeks or so. Most people just assume it's dry by then, without actually verifying. But the inside of the stave, the wood furthest away from the outside of the stave, may still contain some water. This migrates through the wood as the bowyer finishes the bow, or maybe even after he's already finished the bow. The wood is basically still too moist, causing set and robbing cast.
I would advise people to check the moisture content of the wood after (or better: during) quick drying. Put the stave on a accurate scale once a day.When the stave stops losing weight for a few days on end, you know the wood is dry. Or: buy a meter with pins to actually measure the MC of the wood. Scrape away some wood so you can measure the core of the stave, which dries slowest.
I'm still a believer of the quick drying method as proposed by Tim Baker. I just think many people overestimate the process, byt leaving their stave too thick, putting it in a less than optimal drying place, and not checking the MC of the wood.
-
I think quick-drying a stave can work, but it can also fail. When I want to season something fast I will reduce a stave to near-bow dimensions while keeping it as wide as possible. I have five white oak staves quick-drying right now, all are 3-5 cm wide across the back and have been reduced enough that I could brace them if I cut nocks in. These are very short staves (100-110 cm long) since I make short bows, so the wood is less than 1/2 inch thick. I am drying them under a fan until the reach a constant mass for 3 days (weighed on a grain scale, so I can measure their mass to 0.1 grams).
I expect this method will work well for quick drying, since the staves are very thin. If you had a large split stave with the bark on you will not quick dry it. The wood needs to have one dimension that is very thin, so that moisture doesn't linger deep inside the stave like Pat mentioned. This is a huge problem for lots of folks who attempt to quick-dry staves, as when you shave off the outer layer of wood while tillering the inner layers that are exposed are still green and will take lots of set, and also might cause the bow to warp as they start to loose moisture.
-
There is quick drying, and there is quick drying....avoiding checks is paramount, but other than that dry is dry in my mind when it comes to wood quality.
People who cut a trunk and set it aside for 10 yrs are basically just waiting for shavings to dry....I cant see any reason at all why a roughed out bow cured for 4 months (depending on wood type ofc) does not have all the qualities of a trunk of the same wood type dried for 10 yrs (as long as.
I would love to see any kind of documentation for the opposite, and I will review my opinion if the top 10 flight shooting record holders avoid quick cured wood at all costs;-)
Cheers
-
@ Holten.
I couldn't agree more, there are some people who think it's clever to leave a whole trunk of Yew for umpteen years.
The more you reduce the wood the less internal tension will be present and the quicker it will season. Of course some wood is better with the bark left on to stop it drying too quick, but generally a quartered log will be less likely to split than a whole log or a half log.
Del
-
"People who cut a trunk and set it aside for 10 yrs are basically just waiting for shavings to dry"
Tru that. The best way I think is to move slow at first to avoid checks, to take a stave down to a roughed out bow in stages to avoid checks and twisting. If you rough the right wood out too fast you can ruin the stave with huge checks or it might twist right up into a pretzel. So it's better to spilt/quarter the stave and take the bark off. Leave inside in a place without too much heat/sunlight after sealing the ends, but not somewhere damp or some woods can mold. It's better like inside in a hallway or a room in your house, not in a corner or somewhere they will mildew. Wait about a month. Hack it down to very fat dimensions for a bow, but don't go too far or woods like osage can belly check for days. Wait about another month. Hack it down to a roughed out bow and wait a good 3 or 4 months after that.
-
I am a take it slow kinda guy myself. I'll cut a log then let it sit in the barn, with the ends sealed, a few months just to see where that first end check shows up. From there I'll split it in half and let it sit for awhile before I quarter it up.
I figure that since ya gotta wait for a tree to grow, I might as well wait for it to dry... ;)
-
Heartwood is just dead sapwood. Killing the tree stops the conversion process. But really, how do we know that? Heartwood is just sapwood that is no longer recieving nutrients due to its distance from the cambium nutrient-transferring layer. Who's to say what else is involved in the process? I'm guessing moisture and time are the other factors, and if moisture stays high due to the bark slowing the drying, why wouldn't the sapwood turn to heartwood? Has anybody ever cut a dead tree and found sapwood?
-
Sapwood and heartwood are both dead. The only living part of the tree is the cambium or inner bark. Sapwood does become heartwood but only while the tree is alive. I've made slow dried bows and quick dried bows. Haven't seen any difference. I would not quick dry black locust. I'm afraid of checking. Jawge
-
Ask makers of fine musical instruments if they build their instruments out of kiln dried wood or seasoned wood. Ask gun stock makers if they build the Walnut stocks from kiln dried wood or seasoned wood. You will find that anyone that has a good reputation and takes pride in what they make will NOT use kiln dried wood.
There's a lot more to seasoned wood than just the water leaving the wood. Internal stresses get ironed out and the wood seems to get harder with time
-
I was taught that you go slow and to let wood season on it's own out of the sun and moisture. And woods like anything else it's got it's own sprit and It should be treated like so. Not that that matters to many people but it dose to some of us. And beleive like marc saids let it season slow releaves the internal strees. And only have exsperince with hickory sapplings but in a hot box and have made many hickory bows from long seasoned staves. Although saplings arn't staves and at the time I never took any nocies. But like marc said on one ever uses fast dryed kiln wood in musical instrumentsor gun stocks.
I can say if it's better but it fits into my way of bow building. I'm slowwwwwwwww any way.
-
I don't know, Marc. I don't make guitars but I've made many bows from logs and from boards. I've made tons of kiln dried board bows and they shoot just fine and in many cases better than my air dried log stave bows. I'm kind of surprised that we are still having this discussion these days in view of Baker's pioneering work with bows. Jawge
-
The gradual shrinking of wood is demonstrated in the loosening of tool handles over time. Sometimes that is because the handle was too high in moisture initially, but not always.
Sometimes what we buy as kiln dried wood has likely re-hydrated and then air seasoned again stabilizing the wood better.
Any time you attempt to work wood that is known to be air dried for an extended period there is a palapable difference in wood texture and hardness.
I have no problem with making a quick dried bow but usually we end up with extra staves that do end up seasoning for a long time whether that is planned or not. I'll always favor those staves.
I'm surprised that you are surprised about this discussion George. Isn't this the way of the world?
-
Man this is funny :)....we can agree to disagree. :) I say what ever works the best for you, do it. I can agree with both sides of this debate.
-
i realy perosnaly think long natural seasoned wood is best
but will and have used kiln dried boards for bows
especialy when waiting for my staves to season properly ;D
-
Whether it's air dried or kiln dried, fact remains, seasoning process doesn't start until it's dry ;D. If you really want to see the difference between just dried wood and seasoned wood then make up a few hardwood shoot arrows out of each :o. ...........Art
-
There's no doubt in my mind seasoned wood is better than forced dried wood for bow making. Having said that that, I will tell you I still use both methods.
-
How's the weather? Not every one who "quick dries" wood is really getting it "dry" quickly, as several folks already mentioned, and not all "seasoning" is done safely (yes, I speak form experience :-X).
It seems that the biggest difference between quick dried wood and seasoned wood is density. However, adjusting the bow's width to compensate for the mass should be enough to make both the lighter quick dried wood and the denser seasoned wood perform equally well.
The problems really seem to start when corners are cut either way, which I'm pretty sure anyone can agree with. I thought I was using cured wood, both quick and seasoned, but in both cases the moisture content was way too high for hickory. Since then I've been able to use pieces of hickory that had been dried for several years and "baked" for good measure during the bow's construction, as well as "quick dried" bows that had been given several months to fully stabilize, rather than just a couple weeks to dry out. Both make great bows, and more often than not the nod will go to which ever piece was less trouble to get a bow from in the first place. At all times I try to get the bow roughed out early, as the wood usually cures better either way.
-
I'm in agreement with the "heartwoods favor longer seasoning time",and, "whitewoods don't seem to mind rapid drying" theories. I have built whitewood bows ,from tree to finished bow in less than 2 months,and years later,they still perform the same as the day they were finished. Heartwoods tend to contain oils and resins that solidify over time ans cannot be rushed. I follow the 1" of thickness per year curing time for these woods. When I rough out a green osage stave,with near bow dimensions,with limbs a little over 1/2" of thickness,I give them 6 months to cure.Then I carefully weigh the staves for at least a couple of weeks to make sure the weight remains constant,then proceed with tillering. JMHO God Bless
-
Gotta ask you this Pete. Any erratic behavior (arrow grouping/flight) with a 2 month old whitewood bow? The bow stay straight as it seasoned out? Leaving in a hot car draw/crook/twist the limbs? I've noticed all this with fresh made bows. Not so with well seasoned made bows...Art
-
Gotta ask you this Pete. Any erratic behavior (arrow grouping/flight) with a 2 month old whitewood bow? The bow stay straight as it seasoned out? Leaving in a hot car draw/crook/twist the limbs? I've noticed all this with fresh made bows. Not so with well seasoned made bows...Art
I've made a few bows that were as young as 3 months. The bows remained sturdy and never changed, and any arrow flight problems are issue with the arrows or archer, not the bow.
-
No problems with this archer or his arrows here ;D. Boy Kegan, I've seen many bows that I couldn't hit a bull in the butt with, and that's if were standing between his legs. So I don't buy this, it's either the archer or his arrows ::)........Art
-
No problems with this archer or his arrows here ;D. Boy Kegan, I've seen many bows that I couldn't hit a bull in the butt with, and that's if were standing between his legs. So I don't buy this, it's either the archer or his arrows ::)........Art
A reliable bow reacts the same way every time, put in a machine it would be able to hold a nice tight group at 60-100 yards, if not further, if the arrows are perfectly matched to each other, and to the bow. Some bows are hard to shoot with (I know I certainly can't use short bows or really reflexed bows worth a darn), but it's not the bow, but the archer. Any time there's porpoising or fishtailing, it's a problem of how the arrows are tuned to the bow, the spine or nocking point being wrong.
-
LOL, Pat. Guess so. My friends, all wood rehydrates. Take wood out of your drier. Make your bow. Finish it with the finish of your choice. Wait awhile. The wood will take on the ambient humidity. I made a mulberry bow in a dry NH winter and watched it turn into a limp noodle when I brought it to Mojam. That's why the old idea that kiln dried boards are too dry is a misnomer. The boards will take on the humidity of their surroundings in short order. Doesn't matter to me what y'all use for bows. These days I don't make too many board bows. LOL. They are too straight and predictable which makes them a good choice for the beginner. I'm done. :) Jawge
-
LOL, Pat. Guess so. My friends, all wood rehydrates. Take wood out of your drier. Make your bow. Finish it with the finish of your choice. Wait awhile. The wood will take on the ambient humidity. I made a mulberry bow in a dry NH winter and watched it turn into a limp noodle when I brought it to Mojam. That's why the old idea that kiln dried boards are too dry is a misnomer. The boards will take on the humidity of their surroundings in short order. Doesn't matter to me what y'all use for bows. These days I don't make too many board bows. LOL. They are too straight and predictable which makes them a good choice for the beginner. I'm done. :) Jawge
George
We're not talking about the wood losing or absorbing humidity from the atmosphere. I think it is well understood that wood will do that regardless of how long it has been sitting around.
In any case, I have nothing against kiln dried lumber and I have speed dried staves many times. I have noticed that HHB does seem to get harder with time though and so does most of the other white-woods I cut
-
Thanks, Marc. :) Jawge
-
George
We're not talking about the wood losing or absorbing humidity from the atmosphere. I think it is well understood that wood will do that regardless of how long it has been sitting around.
In any case, I have nothing against kiln dried lumber and I have speed dried staves many times. I have noticed that HHB does seem to get harder with time though and so does most of the other white-woods I cut[/quote]
I was given a 5" HHB log that had been in a guys shop for 8 or 9 years. That thing was hard as a rock, much harder than the osage I usually use. I had a hard time working it. It made a fine bow though.
My typical drying method is split the log into staves and put them aside for a year or two. Then I rough out a bow to width and thickness and bring that inside the house for a month or two. That seems to work for me. I am hoping to build up my stock of staves, so they will several years to dry.
-
Art, If the whitewood stave is DRY when the bow is built,I can see no changes ,(that I can notice). When tillering bows like this ,I look for any sign of the stave over-setting,if it does ,I simply stop work,and begin weighing again. Another indicator for me is during the heat treating process.If the wood still contains too much moisture,the belly will check badly,which does'nt happen when dry. JMHO God Bless