Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: Dane on July 05, 2007, 05:18:29 am

Title: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Dane on July 05, 2007, 05:18:29 am
Can anyone explain the process of making glue from Knox gelatin? I've searched this site, and also read through TBB Vol. 1, but can't find that info.

Thanks,

Dane
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Mickey on July 05, 2007, 06:19:32 am
Knox Gellatin by Tim Hamblin

The Knox comes in a small box with 3 or 4 envelopes. Enough to do the bow.  About a buck 80. Put one envelope in a measuring cup, add 1/4 cup  water and nuke in the MW for about 20 seconds. Maybe 30. Just before it starts getting froth on it. I then put it in a small stainless bowl and set on the
warmer of an old coffee maker that I cut the tank off of. That's it. The 1 envelope should last you thru one session.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Dane on July 05, 2007, 07:09:26 am
Man, easier than falling off the proverbial log. Thanks, Mickey.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 05, 2007, 09:18:14 am
I used two packets in a cup of water this last time.  It seemed to do the trick, and thinner is easier to work with.  You also want to periodically add a bit of water to the glue, it seems to need that.  I think some stuff in the sinew dissolves in it when you dunk it in, and that and the evaporation makes it thicken.  Also very important to add the Knox to cold water and let it hydrate, if you add to hot water it clumps and is a bear to get dissolved completely.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 05, 2007, 11:48:35 am
I just about gave in to the dark side this morning.  I was going to whip up a batch of glue from the Knox.  Then I decided it wouldnit be right for my little project.  I went out where some of the ranchers dump their dead cows and knocked the shell of the hooves and brought it home.  I smashed it up really small with a hammer. Now it is cooking on the burner in the back yard.  ;D  That ought to make Bob proud.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 05, 2007, 12:27:43 pm
I have people who do that for me.  They work at Knox Inc.  But I'll admit, you are more primitive than me.

Is it soup yet? How's the smell?
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 05, 2007, 02:17:27 pm
This is an big project.  If I'm going to do it all myself. Then I better do the glue the hard way too.  It does smell a little, but not really bad.  I crushed it to about like a course table salt.  Ill be sinewing with it in a minute.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: duffontap on July 05, 2007, 02:45:25 pm
Tim Baker said you couldn't make glue from hooves?  Or, did I read something wrong?

          J. D.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: samuraiwarrior on July 05, 2007, 02:47:15 pm
Justin, what exactly did you use from the animal.  The hoof is a keratin protein like fingernails.  It will not make a glue like you hope.  You need to use the hide/connective tissues/tendons which have collagen in them to make the glue.  As for knox, I cover the powder with cold water for about an hour and then heat it up.  After it melts I'll adjust consistency to what I like.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Bikewer on July 05, 2007, 03:26:26 pm
I used Knox to apply the snakeskin backing on my osage bow, found it very easy to do.    I just used one of those cheap foam paintbrushes to apply.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Marc St Louis on July 05, 2007, 05:30:11 pm
You know guys. You don't need to boil your hides or sinew down for glue. Just put a roast or chicken in the oven with some water and after awhile pour off the water. You will have some glue and diner at the same time. :)
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Hillbilly on July 05, 2007, 06:29:59 pm
Justin, I was also under the impression that hooves wouldn't make glue. Hide or sinew scraps should work a lot better.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 05, 2007, 06:41:47 pm
Marc, I love the way you think.  You could always eat the rawhide after you boil it.  ;) It might require a little salt and pepper.

As for using hooves....they have been used to make glue for 9600 years at least.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof_glue
Keratin is a protein collagen is in all connective tissue.  We treat our horses hooves regularly when they get to dry to keep the collagen healthy.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: mullet on July 05, 2007, 08:52:33 pm
  Along the same thought as Marc.Just get a canned ham,make a sandwich and scrape off the gelatin.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 05, 2007, 09:05:38 pm
According to John T. Kramer, Antiques Doctor & Apothecary (that is a fancy word for a chemist for us rednecks) The glue is made from boiled and purified hooves and sinew from horses and oxen.  This type was the primary glue for carpenters. Ironically, the older the animal the stronger the glue.  ;D   Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Pat B on July 05, 2007, 10:19:42 pm
So, is it glue yet? ::)      I'll stick with Knox. ;D  Pat
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 05, 2007, 10:38:26 pm
Shame on you Pat. Think of the aroma you could send the neighbors.  ;D  As a matter of fact it is.  You could really glue yourself to your work.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Pat B on July 05, 2007, 10:43:59 pm
You shouldn't even need an artificial heat source these days. Just set a pot of water in the yard...should be boiling in a few minutes.  ;)   How's the roofing business these days? ::)       Pat
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: kiwijim on July 06, 2007, 06:54:51 am
Reading the back of a carton of Davis Gelatine it says: Gelatine derived from New Zealand Beef Skin, Perservative 220.  -sounds like hide glue to me
In my experience, Davis Gelatine works just as well as Knox, and both work at least as well as hide glue (and smell better).
I have tried to make glue from ground up hooves, maybe I was doing something wrong, but all i got was dirty scummy water

james
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: tom sawyer on July 06, 2007, 08:05:34 am
I bought a generic version of Knox and it worked fine.  The grocery store I was at last, didn't jack up the price on the Knox so I bought the brand name.  Whatever is cheapest you know.

I made some glue out of my sinew scraps, but I was told not to use it for sinewing since the temp needed to heat it was higher.  So I dried it and have it saved for some other gluing project that may come along.

Aren't Elmers type school glues made from hooves?  Or do they boil the whole horse?  They always say an old horse is headed for the glue factory.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: duffontap on July 06, 2007, 10:30:11 am
Marc, I love the way you think.  You could always eat the rawhide after you boil it.  ;) It might require a little salt and pepper.

As for using hooves....they have been used to make glue for 9600 years at least.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof_glue
Keratin is a protein collagen is in all connective tissue.  We treat our horses hooves regularly when they get to dry to keep the collagen healthy.  Justin

How come Tim Baker was so adamant that glue could not be made from hooves?  He said in the glue chapter that hoof glue was a total myth.

             J. D. Duff
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 06, 2007, 01:02:21 pm
Marc, I love the way you think.  You could always eat the rawhide after you boil it.  ;) It might require a little salt and pepper.

As for using hooves....they have been used to make glue for 9600 years at least.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof_glue
Keratin is a protein collagen is in all connective tissue.  We treat our horses hooves regularly when they get to dry to keep the collagen healthy.  Justin

How come Tim Baker was so adamant that glue could not be made from hooves?  He said in the glue chapter that hoof glue was a total myth.

             J. D. Duff
You are asking the wrong people that question.   ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 06, 2007, 10:02:18 pm
OK, for some usefull information.  If you don't have a warming pot to keep your "animal glue" from jelling.  A candle warmer works great.  It takes a few minutes to warm up, but it will keep it warm without getting to hot.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Pat B on July 06, 2007, 10:12:31 pm
I bought a miniature electric crock pot from Wally World for about $6 that I use.  I found it in with the candles and scents and I think it is used for scented oils. Keeps the hide glue at a perfect temp and has a lit to help prevent evaporation. I still add water as needed...and it has a nice floral design on it. ;D    Pat
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Coo-wah-chobee on July 06, 2007, 10:25:07 pm
                                       Guess Iam pretty "backward" :D I have a ole' cast iron pot that I make fish glue in on a firepit in backyard. When glue is ready I take off grate add 2 cinder blocks ta raise put pot back on and it keeps glue just right. Course cant do bows when it rainin' >:( ;D......bob
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 06, 2007, 11:00:17 pm
I accidentally got some boiling.  :'( Then I saw the wife's candle warmer sitting next to the stove.  ;D I could just go outside, then I wouldn't need a heater, but it is sure hard to concentrate.  Our low last night was 94*.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Coo-wah-chobee on July 07, 2007, 12:01:59 am
                                Is 'round 90 + * durin' day, 80 +* at nite. BUT the humidity is 80-90 + % most of the time. :o Yup, sure is uncomfortable standin' by firepit makes ya wanna have a brew er 2 er 3 ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ..............Burp !..... ;D.bob
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: D. Tiller on July 07, 2007, 03:05:13 pm
Here its sunny and 75 degrees with a light breeze and low humidity...kinda chilly actually!  ;D  Could still use a beer though!!!
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Marc St Louis on July 07, 2007, 04:11:40 pm
I've used the Davis gelatine and found it to be even better than the Knox. A nice clear golden color
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: PatM on July 07, 2007, 08:51:38 pm
I think that the thought that glue is derived from hooves is that glue may have been made from the lower legs of animals and it was presumed the hooves were the main source. While there is perhaps a small collagen component to the hoof wall of animals I don't know that just boiling the hoof material is the way to go.
 How did the glue turn out Justin?
 Pat
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 09, 2007, 06:56:53 pm
OK guys, you wanted answears.  I made glue from hoof, but it was not just the shell.  It will make glue, and it does work. I decided to do a little experementing to see what works and what don't, to answer all the controversy.  I also did a lot of reading.
Hoof shell, will not make glue adequate to build anything except postage stamps, and that is questionable.
Entire hoof, including toe bones and all the other material in the hoof (digital cussion, pieces of the flexor and extensor tendons) will make glue adequate to build bows.
Sinew makes good glue. The older the animal the better the glue.  It will gel faster and hold better.
Bone will make glue.
Hide glue is stronger than bone glue.
Fish glue is the strongest and most flexable, but is most susceptible to humidity.
Blood glue is fairly strong, and makes the most water resistant glue.
You can also make glue from vegetable starch, milk and numerous other things.

I suspect that hoof glue was actually everything glue.  The inner hoof was good, but hard to get out, so throw the whole leg in.  It is primarily a wood glue.
Fish glue is used to glue flexable joints, it is used to glue leather seams.
Blood glue is the best high pressure glue.  It was used for plywood construction.
Vegetable glues are used for envelopes and such.
Animal glue from hide or sinew is stronger than Knox. I don't know if it is because Knox has been treated to be clear and odorless with chemicals, but that is my suspicion.
Animal glue is considered instant glue, because it holds as soon as it cools. Long before it is dry. 
Animal glue is stronger than TB.
Because it gels first, then dries, it does not honey comb like the synthetic water based glues.

Justin

Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 09, 2007, 07:00:23 pm
OH YEA, and old dead cows DO STINK.  Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: NOMADIC PIRATE on July 10, 2007, 03:28:11 am
In "the bowyers bible" Knox is rated second only to two ton epoxy,...comments ??
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Hillbilly on July 10, 2007, 04:46:34 am
I remember reading that, Manny- they tested everything from TB to Urac to Resorcinol, regular hide glue, etc., and Knox was rated stronger than any of them except for the two-ton. It would be interesting for several people to do the test independently and see if the results match.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: jamie on July 10, 2007, 05:58:50 am
i rock boiled a bunch of deer hooves to see if i could get oil to finish one of my stone bows. didnt get enough oil to do much but i did end up with a small amount of glue towards the end. i suppose if i boiled it longer i would of gotten more.
i have some air bladders from some carp that a friend shot. looking forward to trying that out soon. peace
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 10, 2007, 08:28:44 am
In "the bowyers bible" Knox is rated second only to two ton epoxy,...comments ??
Manny, all of my reading was chemists, archaeologists, and professionals in the glue industry.  They didn't really compare to epoxy on a general level. They did say hide glue is the strongest glue known. They specifically mentioned that it was stronger than TB.    Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: welch2 on July 10, 2007, 09:54:11 am
Thanks Justin, it must have took awhile. Was it normal fish glue or fish bladder glue ?

Ralph
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 10, 2007, 10:45:24 am
Thanks Justin, it must have took awhile. Was it normal fish glue or fish bladder glue ?

Ralph
It was a little time consuming, but kind of fun.  ;) I had 4 different pots on the fire at once.  ;D I hope it helped.  Glue from the skins of eels and perch is the most common. I don't know if there is a significant difference in the two. It is mixed and used like hide glue but, is finer and clearer. It can be melted without the addition of water if you are really carefull with your heat. Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: welch2 on July 10, 2007, 10:56:25 am
fish bladder glue is supposed to be better , the Turks used sturgeon ,and the koreans use puffer fish bladders for thier horn bows. I have never used fish skin glue ,So I was wondering if you had compared the two types.
        Fish bladder glue is also called isenglas.It's used to clarify beer and wine ,and art restoration people people use it as a binder in oil paint. Asian food markets sell fish bladders under ther name 'fish maw' they have both dried and cooked maws though ,get the dried ones.Or  save the swim bladder from your fishing trip.

Ralph
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 10, 2007, 11:09:29 am
I have been trying to find fish bladder, but haven't found any yet. I'm going fishing tomarrow.  ;D Fish glue is also huge in musical instrument repair.  The funny thing is none of them are considered true "glue".  Because they adhere when gelled, not just after they are dry, they are actually adhesive. Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: NOMADIC PIRATE on July 11, 2007, 01:06:50 am
Justin,..so hide glue is stronger than Knox ?
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: samuraiwarrior on July 11, 2007, 01:46:43 am
fish bladder glue is supposed to be better , the Turks used sturgeon ,and the koreans use puffer fish bladders for thier horn bows. I

Minor correction, but the Koreans use croaker air bladders, I have never heard of them using a puffer fish bladder.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 11, 2007, 07:28:26 am
Justin,..so hide glue is stronger than Knox ?

I mixed up a batch of Knox, and the immediate holding strength of the hide glue and the sinew glue, were both stronger. You can almost bet that Knox has bone in it, which is the weakest of all these glues. I also suspect it has something to do with the cleaning process. I'm not sure what they do to the Knox to make it so clear, unflavored, and odorless, but it must effect the strength.  I have used liquid before too, but that will never happen again. I would use Knox long before liquid hide glue, or TB. One other thing to consider. Most people think of making hide glue as a too much work.  It is far more work to prepare the sinew right, than it is to make the hide glue.  I just set up my gas cooker out back.  Put the pots on low, and checked back once in a while to change the heat if needed.  I had a slight breeze, and only rarely smelled anything. I was working on bows while it was cooking so it didn't really take time out of my day. Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: DanaM on July 11, 2007, 07:36:17 am
Where do the commercial hide glue flakes rate. Are they the same as making it yerself.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Justin Snyder on July 11, 2007, 07:47:32 am
Nothing is the same as making your own. That is why we all make our own bows.  ;) ;D I would guess it depends on what type of material was used in making the glue.  It is probably somewhere around Knox. Some bone, some hide, some EVERYTHING. I think Knox is plenty strong. If you are using store bought glue, use the Knox.  It is cheap and easy to find. Justin
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: NOMADIC PIRATE on July 11, 2007, 10:51:01 am
Question,.....If knox/hide glues are so strong, how come for wood/bamboo backed bows TB/URAC/EPOXY are always used ?


or at least, I've never heard the opposite ;D
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: PatM on July 11, 2007, 05:26:16 pm
Laziness. :) If there is a quicker, more reliable way, people tend to use it but properly applied hide glue joints are just as strong in a laminated application.
 Pat
 PS Purists like Japp Kppedrayer make their laminated bows with natural glues.
Title: Re: How to make Knox glue?
Post by: Hillbilly on July 11, 2007, 05:43:04 pm
Manny, those highly stressed old Asiatic hornbows were put together with natural glues. The problem isn't the strength, the main thing to me and probably many others who live in wet, humid places is lack of water resistance, and as Pat said, laziness.